I think there's an inherit problem with both the event and Spencer's cap run and nobody talks about it: If Steve...

I think there's an inherit problem with both the event and Spencer's cap run and nobody talks about it: If Steve believes he's been trained by HYDRA, might makes right, only the strong is allowed to prevail, your enemies must be destroyed HYDRA, then why does he feel sorry for Rick Jones? Why does he still love Sharon Carter?

One moment he wants the media to destroy Sam Wilson, one of his closest partner, manipulates Tony Stark, arguably a friend, abandons Carol on the other side of a wall with billions of alines coming to kill her, throws a chunk of heroes in a dark dimension to battle god knows what...
On the other side, he's all broken up and misty eyed about the concept of betraying the very same people.

It's just very inconsistent for who or what he feels sorry about at any given moment. It could be a hint that real-Steve is still there, but it's too little and spordaic to be that, and again, if he spent his whole fake life battgling for HYDRA, why doe he give a shit?

tldr: This event is filled with hack writing.

He believes in the "real" hydra. The one that the cube imp was told about, not the hydra you know from the comics. His hydra has different values and shit.

Have I missed an issue? Issue 0 ended with the heroes remaining converging on Washington. Issue 1 opens what feels like months later with Hydra in complete control..

Also why are Thor Odinson and Scarlet Witch with the Hydra Avengers wtf?!

A lot of the people in his inner circle are unlikable and justifiably so. The people he turned his back on for the most part he enjoys.

Take that for what you will but the whole double agent scenario never really wipes off the protagonist in a clean way.

>He believes in the "real" hydra. The one that the cube imp was told about, not the hydra you know from the comics. His hydra has different values and shit.
This... Doesn't make much sense when it was Red Skull who used the Cube to create the Hydra Cap reality. Why would he engineer a reality in which Cap would STILL want to kill him? Why wouldn't he make Cap a faithful servant of Red Skull's Hydra?

>He believes in the "real" hydra. The one that the cube imp was told about, not the hydra you know from the comics.

Yeah, but it feels like everything about this happened at pure random. Everything kobik knew she learned from Red Skull, and while I can understand Red Skull pushed an idilliac kidfiendly version of HYDRA to her, why is it so far removed from what he was actually ruling over? Why if she sees him as a father figure, the world she imagined up for Steve still has him as a villain?

Did she just reimagined Steve to be HYDRA, and everything else, including Red Skull being a villain, was something that spontaneously appeared with it?

I find this whole thing so needlessly contrived and convenient, even by comicbook standards.

>tldr: This event is filled with hack writing.
You're supposed to put tl;dr first so that people don't have to read it all. Why put it at the end? Isn't that a Reddit thing?

But yeah, hack writing. That's what happens when the boss says "editors cost too much money, just edit it yourself!"

Timeline goes this way:
1. Skull finds Kobik, teaches her PG-13 Hydra, how it's the best thing ever
2. Kobik believes the storybook version of Hydra.
3. Kobik converts Selvig, Skull realises that she turns people Hydra, but doesn't realise that it's ideal Hydra rather than real Hydra.
4. Kobik converts Cap
Correct me if I'm wrong i don't have the actual issues with me at the moment.

You missed nothing, the story just skipped ahead to Hydra-ruled America because Nick Spencer is a hack.

He just fell in love with her and love is irrational. He wants to convince her to his side so he doesn't have to kill her.

Also we are shown throughout the story that Steve struggles with the Hydra ideals even if he believes in them.

He doesn't give a fuck about Yasss Queen and Tony, they were coworkers at most.

You know, the more I think about it, the more it kinda makes sense...

It's kinda like House of M, where Wanda created a world from scratch, and while it actually existed only after she made it, it still had an history of its own stretching back hundreds of years...

This is the same thing only it's in Steve's head. So yeah, a whole new world did spontaneously generate from the one change she made, and Red Skull was the bad guy...

Although there're still things that don't click together... like, iif in fake memory world Steve and Red Skull both knew they were Hydra, why doesn't Steve thing it's weird that Real world Skull and him fought to the death for years while he didn't remember? Is he just assuming Skull was an asshole that didn't reveal the truth to him?

So further research suggests those questions get answered in the FBCD issue which is out Saturday.

It reads really badly. Lord knows how casuals (who Marvel actually need to keep books afloat) are supposed to follow this shit.

What? The tl;dr always goes at the end, newfag.

It's not fake memories. It's real memories. People seem to keep missing the fact that Kobik is a cosmic cube. She didn't implant Steve with fake memories. She warped reality to create the "Steve is Hydra" timeline. Then in WWII in that timeline, the allies used the cube to turn it back to 616. Kobik pulled Steve from the Hydra timeline she created.

>if in fake memory world Steve and Red Skull both knew they were Hydra, why doesn't Steve thing it's weird that Real world Skull and him fought to the death for years while he didn't remember? Is he just assuming Skull was an asshole that didn't reveal the truth to him?
All of your questions would be answered if you actually read the comic instead of making assumptions based off of what you've seen people talk about in Sup Forums threads.

I think a big plot hole in all this Steve knows that a cosmic cube is involved in these series of events yet, it doesn't occur to him the possibility that just maybe, the current him isn't the byproduct of cube shenanigans. Even a bit of questioning which is real would have been nice but instead we get nothing

The story goes that every time cap kicked hydra's ass, it was because he disagreed with the people in charge of the specific movement.

Essentially him going "not my hydra reeeeeeeeeeee"

It's not really a plot hole, it's just something it isn't time to establish yet from a narrative perspective. The "self-doubt" would come when it's closer to the end of the event, when the real Steve is fighting to break through. Once the dreamer starts to suspect THEY are in a dream, things start to deteriorate rapidly. The tension comes from the wait for them to recognize something is wrong.

Red skull straight up told him it was all a dream that he used the cube to make him like this. Steve didnt care

Ah so

The Cap we know fights for the ideal America where everyone is happy whilst fighting (sometimes submitting) the real ugly American systems to achieve it.

Hydra Cap does the same, but under Hydra pretense which is much, much worse

Or is it??

p o t t e r y

If it is all just dreams and false memories of a timeline that never was, the big question is the new Madame Hydra, and how she is present in the real timeline.

Poor Nick.

Which makes absolutely no sense when people who were actually there don't remember certain things happening such as Bucky killing Zeno's father. And before you say about the allies changing history that they won, that event has nothing to do with them winning or losing

That's not a big question, it's made pretty explicit why she's around. You seem to keep peddling this "fake memories" and "timeline that never was" stuff that isn't true.

Kobik DID change reality. Then in that new reality, the allies used a cosmic cube to change it back to 616. Elisa and Captain Hydra are from that timeline that Kobik created and are its last remnants. Cap from Kobik pulling him into 616 and Elisa from making some deals with Chton or whoever to evade the reality warping.

What part of "reality warping" don't you understand? That's the whole fucking point of the cosmic cube. Kobik turned reality into the Hydra timeline. Then the allies turned it back to normal 616. Kobik pulled Captain Hydra from the timeline she created to the remade 616. No one but Cap and Elisa remember that timeline because they're the only two from that timeline. Everyone else is just normal 616.

Keep peddling? That was my first ever post on this subject.

And if a lot people aren't understanding what is going on in this story, that's a very serious problem.

>The story goes that every time cap kicked hydra's ass, it was because he disagreed with the people in charge of the specific movement.
Wait, where was that stated, I seriously don't remember?

That's way too convoluted.

>His hydra has different values and shit.
What are Hydra's current values?

It seems that Hydra!Cap is driven by a very vague definition of strength.

>One moment he wants the media to destroy Sam Wilson, one of his closest partner, manipulates Tony Stark, arguably a friend, abandons Carol on the other side of a wall with billions of alines coming to kill her, throws a chunk of heroes in a dark dimension to battle god knows what...

The oath made it clear that he despises Carol and thinks she's pathetic. He manipulated Stark and Sam in order to bring forth his new world order, but it doesn't mean he hates them or would kill them without remorse.

>On the other side, he's all broken up and misty eyed about the concept of betraying the very same people

He fell in love with Sharon and Rick didn't fuck up the world with a second superhero civil war

So, like, were the Nazis still a thing during WWII at all? Did the whole killing Gypsies and Jews thing not happen at all in this new timeline? I understand Nazis != Hydra, but WWII doesn't happen without Nazis.

If the Nazis were still in charge of Germany during WWII and the axis powers won how does someone like Wanda exist? Even if Magneto's not currently her father (it's way too hard to keep track of), her Mom was still a Gypsy and would still be sent to a death camp. So either Wanda's both the groups Nazi's liked to kill most or just one. How did her parents survive long enough to have her? And how did she even survive after she was born? Irregardless of Hydra not being Nazis it doesn't make sense for her to be alive.

They try ther damnest to make HYDRA and Nazis not the same thing in the comic, but it all falls entirely flat.

In new cube world, Steve is recruited by this Sinclair bitch who follows the ancient lovecraftian snake-cult type hydra (and also murders his parents but still Steve goes along with it because the plot says so). Then later on, Baron Zemo shows up and asks HYDRA to join war world II on the sie of the Axis.
Snake cult Sinclair is the only one that doesn't want to, but she's outvoted and HYDRA joins the Nazis to fight in the war.

They try to play it like they're apolitical, world conquest is the end, "if we don't like Hitler anymore we take him out", but it's just a case of Spencer wanting his cake and eat it too.

Can't have HYDRA be Nazis, but can't have HYDRA not fight in War World 2.

From this week's issue I can see the direction the story is heading in, Steve will understand that the idealistic Hydra he believes existed and raised him is nothing more than a dream and that the inept, backstabbing pieces of shit that form his cabinet are the faces of the real hydra. The issue already showed friction between him and them.

Hold on second where was is established in the fake timeline that Kobik pulled Steve through from the fake reality to the 616 reality? I recall Elisa's exposition but not how it was achieved.

This event would've okay if it took place in an actual alternate universe and not a re-dressed 616. Then Spencer could've created whatever history he wanted and I might have enjoyed what he wrote instead of any enjoyment being ruined by a thousand plot holes.

Steve's mom actually turns out alive and in on making him Captain Hydra which is when becomes "fully committed" to the current plan thats been going on.

>Steve's mom actually turns out alive and in on making him Captain Hydra which is when becomes "fully committed" to the current plan thats been going on.
Which issue was this? I'm starting to think I've lost one somewhere. I didn't read the Sam ongoing, I only followed the main Steve series.

Siding with the axis powers doesn't make them nazis though.

Then Red Skull and Zemo, two Nazis become their main leaders.

oh, and Strucker was also a Nazi

Yeah, Red Skull came in and made it all Nazi but now he's dead and out. Zemo was never a Nazi, he was the child of one.
Stucker was ran out of Germany and Hitler himself ordered his death. You don't qualify as a Nazi anymore when the Nazis want you dead.

>teaches her PG-13 Hydra

So cute.

Yeah, it's hack writing. This cliche is so overplayed.

Wait, hang on, I found it. Issue 16, last one. I didn't read after he killed the red skull, figured I could jump to the SE Prelude without missing anything too important besides set up.

It never was. It's all in Steve's head aside from Madame Hydra/Elisa.

She's the real villain of Secret Empire. She's probably the one who suggested the original Hickman SHIELD/Isaac Newton ideals Hydra to Kobik.

remember when he was going to straight-up murder Jack Flag while he was in a coma and was saved by narrative contrivance?