Who was in the right here?

Who was in the right here?

Accords: Steve
Bucky: Tony

Steve was right that the accords were stupid, Tony was right about bringing Winter Solider in.

I didn't like how tony tried to pass off the ultron fiasco all of the avengers fault, instead of just him and bruce.

Both stands were reasonable but their motivations were childish and selfish as fuck.

What were they fighting about? I don't remember

Avengers=/=The Authority

Tony Stark was right. The Avengers cause the shit they fight.

The Authority will blow up your fucking planet if you try shit, and Jenny Sparks killed God.

They have the power to find out crimes caused by criminals in advance

They are fighting about whether they should jail them before they commit them or not

Also another plot regarding bringing winter soldier and the Accords

Tony, Steve was an irrational double standard faggot, an interventionist cunt that doesn't care about the rights of freedom of others.

Tony was just a jerk.

You mean Steve and Steve

No, it wasn't, not respecting sovereign countries is always wrong. If captain Iran comes to murrika, destroys a weapons factory Steve wouldn call him a terrorist. Steve team supporting him was fine, if you are willing to pay prize for your political stances and your actions you are a hero, but his team didn't pay shit, they invaded several countries, and then escaped jail. Fuck them.

Tony, but only because the movie seemed to go out of its way to make Cap look like a stupid asshole.

Steve, because he knows firsthand that sovereign countries can easily be corrupted and controlled by secret forces like HYDRA.

What did the avengers cause outside of ultron, which was the result of tony NOT consulting the avengers.

are the avengers culpable for every stray piece of concrete, rebar, and cement that falls from the sky during battles involving invading alien forces?

Anyone who didn't watch this trash.

Steve was right about everything.

Tony was just butthurt.

>there are people right now, right in this very thread, who think Iron Man-child was perfectly justified in his decision and not just jumping at the first chance to rid himself from all responsibility and accountability for his actions

This doesn't mean, however, that Tony's stand is the wrong one. I honestly can't tell.

It's one of those situations where both are right in certain specifics but are too stubborn to see reason on the other

>The Avengers cause the shit they fight.

Even if we agree that the source of the Avengers' battles can be traced back to earlier battles, those earliest battles come from them thwarting evil. You would ask the capable not to intervene when the stakes are lower for consideration of how high the stakes may someday become?

At least the movie gave Tony a better reason for signing up than "Reality show superheroes accidentally got some kids blown up".

>come on, guys, we should trust the politicians who so far have been incompetent, short-sided ideas who wanted to nuke new york, at best hydra puppets
>this time they'll turn out to be good, I promise

Steve.
Steve for fuck's sake, this isn't a discussion.

Was that literally God or was that just a clever name given to a plant monster?

SAVE....MMMMMARTHA

Tony was 100% correct. You can't just have a random ass team with no international oversight. The Avengers break international law literally every time they land in another country that they weren't explicitly allowed to be in.

Not him

But then how would you justify Ultron

Ultron only exists because Stark was lazy

Accords: Tony No seriously, when the majority of the human population wants a say in whether or not you unleash the Hulk, for example, "No, You Move" is just beingbs dick. The Accords were perfectlu reasonable, albeit flawed, which Tony both admitted and also implied that he's willing to go behind the UN's back if need be.[/spoilers]

Bucky: Steve, most def, but Tony's meltdown was surprisingly understandable.

The thing about it was neither were right.

Steve was right in that the Avengers should not be controlled by politicians that have their own agendas and, as he witnessed in the events of Winter Soldier, could turn on them at any moment. But, he was wrong that they should not be allowed to avoid any reparations for the casualties and injuries they cause during their missions.

Tony was right about them needing to take more care in protecting civilian life, but he can't just let the team kowtow to the previously mentioned agendas of politicians. As mentioned in the movie, what happens if the Accords decide the Avengers will attack a foreign country for resources?

As far as Bucky was concerned, same goes. Neither are right. Steve only wanted to protect him because of their past friendship and Tony wanted revenge.

Cap, Tony dealth with the cocksuckers they had to hold their reigns back when he was a complete douchebag. He knows they're assholes. The shit about them "not having the right" to be the ones to make the call is bullshit, why the fuck would you want some shitbag politician making the call when you've got a fucking centurion who cannot be bought and have the power to fight corruption?

Why? Because a single black child died? They save thousands more, they save the fucking planet.

They don't cause shit, supers being a thing was happening before Tony was there, and if one person has em, eventually this shit bubbles to the surface. This also isn't accounting for aliens, gods, and god aliens that want to skull fuck earth because they have meta humans. Shit is gonna go down anyway, might as well take care of it now.

Ultron was an accident, the skrull was a collision already set in motion.

And? If people want to serve hydra, if a country wants to be commie, if a country goes full fascist, it's their right. The only ones responsible for their own Destiny are them they have to fight injustice, or fight their own fights, fuck you.

Steve is nothing more that a fascist.

Antifa pls

neither
the movie was garbage

also wouldnt some Country just arrest these people when they show up and are clearly breaking the law physically assaulting citizens ? they are all publicly known and walk around without their magic costumes a lot

Tony NEVER said they should trust the politics. He hated that idea as much as Steve (just look at his fsce any time he has to interact with Ross.)

Tony's point was "Guys, it doesn't matter how much the Accords suck; the majority of the people in this room including anf especially myself have fucked up in one way or another in the past, and now -THEY ARE FUCKING HAPPENING-, and there is nothing we can say that will convince literally the entire world that we deserve political autonomy, so please just sign the dotted line so I can put out the PR fires and amend the documents after all this bullshit."

Steve isn't a centurion that fights corruption, why should o want a foreign soldier killing people in my country?

Steve is a guy. With pretty clear ideals, a good person, but also a shill for capitalism and American interests.

In the movie he clearly believes his friends should have the right to walk free from jail and pay no prize for acting like terrorists in foreign soil. 616 Steve would call movie Steve a fascist, ultimate Steve may had been a dick but he was never this much of a cunt.

I don't want a monster, 2 guys that were killing politicians in foreign soil, one of them a soviet killer, a teenage terrorist that was working for. Ultron, ultron's dad, an American soldier, a robot created by Ultron, and some alien viking that has no respect for earth's laws in my country.

Steve is just like The CIA or bush in the middle east, his attitude is a plain and simple "I know better", his values are not my values and what is best for his country is not nest for mine, fuck movie Steve and Fuck you

Is English your first language?

>implying they don't do just that when Cap first tries to rescue Bucky

Great argument interventionist cuck

>interventionist
What the fuck are you going on about faggot?

Sure, and then, nothing happens, they don't serve time. Bucky needs to be in a mental hospital. All of Steve's team should be in jail for destroying an airport

If you don't know what that word means you shouldn't waste your time talking about cartoons or comics.

But all of Steve's team sans Steve and Bucky were sent to jail. That underwater prison Thunderbolt Ross built.

Whatever nigger

Steve's arguements ultimately boiled down too "Well in my opinion." Everything Tony was going off of was fact based. Even if you hate Iron Man, you can't deny Steve was being reactionary as fuck.

You would have had a point, if current governments reflected the will of the people.

They don't, however.

>fucking happening
That was up to them. Who do they send to take down vision?

And what happens to them after that? Steve breaks them out and they escape. They don't give a shit about the crimes they commit.

Another great argument from someone that doesn't know what interventionism is and why is bad.

Cap was wrong in pretty much everyway. Tony was wrong in most ways. He claimed that everything that went wrong was their collective fault, when in reality, Tony is solely to blame for pretty much everything.

Without due process and with the clear intent of violating their constitutional rights.

Tony was just repeating Ross' arguments to alleviate his own guilt.

So i guess giving weapons to syrian rebels, training Cuban mercenaries, creating Osama, arming Saddam, backing pinochet, the whole deal with the United Fruit Company it's all fine, after all, those countries REALLY needed the help.

>Without due process
The due process with Bucky and ALL suspected bombers in Germany and France is to shot at the first glance of resistance. We didn't see any of the rest of the team arrest.

>and with the clear intent of violating their constitutional rights.

They don't have constitutional rights when their crimes where done OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. They have to answer to several European countries. If you kill someone in Germany you can't expect to end up in a jail 2 kilometers away from your house.

And Ross was right.

>That was up to them. Who do they send to take down vision?
The second they take that stance, they are the villains.

Also, Vision outright said oversight was a reasonable compromise, and unlike steve, he's actually worthy.

by that logic you can't just have a random ass superpowered individual running around with no official oversight in the city.
But then, time and time again, superheros prove they are needed (in universe). There's no reason to set higher formal impediments to their operations regarding worlwide threats (where they're even more useful)

>Tony is solely to blame for pretty much everything.
I like how people like to downplay the objective fact that Wanda not only did way worse than Tony, but was in full control of her faculties when she did it.

Remember when she unleashed the Hulk and Tony risked life and limb to stop her mess? I can tell you one thing; Tony and Banner sure as fuck remember, and Tony is Tony gave her a lavish condo in spite of that.

Ross's argument wasn't wrong. Take out the guilt-tripping, and he actually makes a pretty good point; Operating by their own judgement with no oversight was entirely irresponsible and the world doesn't want that anymore.

What WAS wrong was his ulterior motives (basically taking command of the Avengers himself and turning Tony into his personal attack dog.)

And Steve invites her, a terrorist that worked with ultron, ultron's baby, and his team of killers to join a team. Somehow he doesn't understand why other countries get mad when they jump into their countries, kill nationals, and refuse cooperation.

Me for not going to see it lol

Black Panther was objectively correct.
Everyone else was some shade of wrong.

>I didn't see it
>therefore I know that I benefited from not seeing it

t.bucky

Tony, but I can't not side with Cap.

Steve by far

Zemo

yeah, I said it. Wanna make something of it?

Bucky was literally brainwashed by the gommies he din du nuffin

gommies???

The characters on the right are Iron Man, Black Widow, War Machine, Vision, Black Panther. Also it's "on" the right, "in" the right is improper grammar.

Kids these days, I swear.

And on the issue of Maria and Howard?

no one was right about that. steve withheld information trying to protect tony. tony flew off the handle emotionally and was fighting with intent to kill.

tony's actions are understandable, but not condoneable (which isn't a word). any person capable of emotions would want to lash out at the murderer of their parents, regardless of the killer's mental state or control of their faculties.

steve felt like he was protecting tony by not telling him, but he was just protecting bucky (again) because that's his only link to his past life. i don't think that's as easy to defend.

this isn't related to anything, but i just noticed something

skinny steve uses regular chris evan's voice. why didn't they adjust it and make it higher pitched, squeakier, less confident?

rewatching it, his voice doesn't match his size and ruins the otherwise good manletification effect

Well, I got the impression Wanda's powers were corrupting her, given they were connected to her emotions and that means a feedback loop. She'd just used her mind mojo 3 times prior to Banner meaning she may have been amped on her owers.

Realistically, Stark would be right.

Practically, Stark can never be right, because capes can not function in realistic environment. Again and again they try to get real, only to crawl back in with half-baked excuses.

But he was also wrong. BP said it himself.

The republicans

What I don't understand about people who side with Tony is why they think that having government support would lessen the collateral damage.

I mean, okay, say they had Nigerian permission to take out Crossbones, odds are he still detonates the bomb and everyone who died still dies.

or they don't get sent there and Crossbones unleashed a deadly virus into the world, because there's no way fodder soldiers capture him and the virus.

The idea is more about PR and morale then about actual damage. Avengers are not accountable to anyone, they went into another country, blew up the building and don't care to explain anything, you better believe they didn't mean it guys. And tomorrow they will blow another building and who's going to verify their story?

With government backing you can assume some checks were in place to lessen the blow.

Well, the Avengers are no more.

I suspect only Tony and Steve are still active. The rest have basically quit.

You don't get it, it's not about colleteral damage. It's about an invasive force acting with no permission. In an ideal world some countries would give free movement to the avengers, like the NATO countries, others would allow activity just like with the red cross just when needed and they can't enter without invitation and co operation, for others with no real state they would be asked by the UN to go, just like the peace corps, and others would just say Fuck off we can handle it ourselves like Larveria.
Every country has the right to decide who they let in. Tony was right.

That's what made him right. He had an arc, everyone else just doubled down on their stance.

Cap was right and fuck Iron Man, he should've been in jail after Age of Ultron.

Very convenient that he suddenly starts sucking up to the government and telling more responsible heroes what they should do.

Manlets can still sound deep, but to answer you: so even morons would know that Skinny Steve and Buff Steve were the same guy.

Yes. That was THE God.

Jenny Sparks slays God and dies. Best send off for a character of her caliber.

Correct. user is on point.

The Avengers are vigilantes. Vigilantism is by definition illegal.

Get some restrictions and regulations on those god damn nutters in body condoms.

Tony Stark didn't build Ultron. Henry Pym built Ultron.

Movie shit can fuck the fuck off. Get your mediums strait or don't post, user.

>What I don't understand about people who side with Tony

It's not about siding with Tony, it's about the fact that Steve is presented as the Team America without the underlying parody, this bizarre libertarian power fantasy where you get the kick the door down, do whatever heinous shit you want and leave without facing any repercussions. It's Splinter Cell Tom Clancy nonsense without even the barest lip service presented to refute his argument.

I liked the Civil War movie, but Cap only has a leg to stand on in a world where the government has been infected with Hydra beforehand. Tony was so in the right that the movie had to invent a new aspect of his backstory to make him spill his shit at the end and show him as entirely unreasonable.

>inb4 but Cap is shown to be unreasonable too

Bullshit. Cap's "wrongness" is augmented by the fact that Ross has a murder-boner out for his best friend who just wants to be left alone and isn't actually killing people. Cap and Bucky are let entirely off the hook on a dramatic level because his flaws are presented through a plot lens while Tony's are through a character one, aka he doesn't have the excuses that Cap has to be irrational and emotional.

The politics of the Civil War movie either make no sense or are a gigantic unintentional love-letter to rendition teams coming into foreign countries, murdering people and leaving without any consequences.

A soldier is a representative of a government, which Steve was not.

Anybody who says Tony was right about anything in this movie, is an idiot.

Not that user but I honestly wouldn't. Seriously, Stark and Banner should probably be in prison for making Ultron. You don't make a system like that without talking to government and military leaders and getting permission first. Wasn't it supposed to tap into and get information from every military and computer system like Skynet?

You do know this is a thread about the movies, right?

when has the inventor of a WMD ever been prosecuted for it?

I like how Rhodes brings up the UN when making a point about the Accords. Maybe the UN in the MCU is actually competent.

Bigger stick philosophy isn't a good way to be superheroes

I got a deep as fuck voice and I'm skinny as fuck. I can even pass for a trap decently when I was younger. Voice doesn't follow size

It's your typical sci-fi UN.

The kind that can run an intelligence agency with worldwide jurisdiction.

I don't feel that's a good analogy here.

Bringing the Winter Soldier in is what allowed him to immediately be reactivated and go on a rampage. Bucky is the literal example case of why giving control over a super powered person is bad. Shield was secretly Hydra which was using the Winter Soldier to covertly assassinate people for decades. The Accords are just a larger scale.

Bucky hurt absolutely nobody while on his own. Being in the hands of somebody else is what makes him dangerous.

The place that Bucky was being held. Did no one think to look up what the guy Zemo was pretending to be looked like? You'd think they'd make sure someone was who they said they were before letting them into a place like that.

I like to think that Nick used to be the entire reason the UN ran well and since then it's bee falling apart. In Infinity War it'll have become bloated and unable to deal with an invasion force before Nick shows up and just runs the show cause he's Nick fucking Fury and he's a badass motherfucker

In reality, Stark would be right if only because cooperating is what allows society to function.

In the universe in which the characters exist, where their prime enemies have been the government and organizations in charge and the corruption from the inside, and otherworldly threats that the UN has 0 knowledge or understanding of, Steve is right.

When Thanos comes to wreck Earth, the UN and the Accords mean shit. When the entire universe is under threat, the Avengers should have full control over saving it. Not some UN panel full of politicians that haven't had a day in battle in their lives.

Sounds like a villain in a toothpaste commercial

>When Thanos comes to wreck Earth, the UN and the Accords mean shit. When the entire universe is under threat, the Avengers should have full control over saving it. Not some UN panel full of politicians that haven't had a day in battle in their lives.
So a Caesar taking executive power/Supreme Chancellor Palpatine sort of thing?

A the only people actually capable of stopping him doing what is necessary because if the world blows up there isn't even a discussion to be had sort of thing.

If aliens were busting up my planet, I don't care what a bunch of politicians think.