Discuss Kingdom Come

Alright Sup Forums, I want to have a serious discussion about this comic because for the life of me I can't understand why people like it, I have tried reading it multiple times but I still leave with the same conclusion, it's really bad.

I could talk about how it portray's Wonder woman and all the other heroes as shadows of their former selves but lets talk about the Man Of Steel himself; I don't think this comic was kind to him. I know it was written to be Superman's Dark Knight Returns but it fails in that regard and Superman comes off as a cowardice, weak willed man who did nothing throughout the story and the ending feels unearned so tell me Sup Forums am I wrong? lets discuss.

The art is pretty pretty.

Lotsa characters die die.

The story is "big" and "epic". For some people, that equates to "good".

>I'M Sup Forums AND THIS CLASSIC CAPE STORY IS SHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT GIVE ME (YOU)S!!!!

If you don't like it then you don't like it.
Anyone who needs validation or reasons for their personal preferences really needs to work on their self-esteem, man.

How do you justify liking something, then?

I am not seeking validation just a discussion of why you like the story something that you haven't done so how bout it, try actually giving an argument for the merits of this piece of art

Spider-man, Thor and Captain America make a quick cameo

the 90s were the best time for comics, Waid is a faggot

it's A LOT of people's first comic, someone at some point sold the meme that it pulled comics back from the brink of the Dark Age, and the art isn't what people expect from a comic

that's pretty much it as to why people like it. The story is pretty typical Big 2 90s with a hopeful ending, it's basically Waid and Ross whining about muh Silver Age, and while Ross is a great artist, his style isn't suited to action-oriented comics.

in terms of quality, maybe.

in terms of actual health of the industry, oh my no

All true but here is the think hardcore Superman fans love it and that I just don't get it portrays their hero as a coward that needed to be talked down from killing a room full of people because they nuked the gulag which was his fault his ineptitude is what cause all the troubles in the story and he was reward for it that I just don't get.

>is right about basically everything
>has some badass moments
>wins
I'm a Superman fan and I don't like it, but I can see why some might

I'm so happy Waid never got a Superman ongoing

>WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT THIS WELL KNOWN AND OFTEN DISSECTED STORY SPOONFEED ME DO IIIIIT NOT AN ARGUMENT FUUCK IM RETAAAARDEEEED!!!!

...

>I'm retarded
I'm glad you're aware of your condition user, hope its gets better.

I'm amazed at DC's restraint at only bringing up Red Robin and the Gogs up to the main continuity.

I figured by now the Battalion would have been an established foil to the JLA/JSA by now.

understatement of the decade, the Captain Marvel splash, is easily one of the top 5 pages ever.

so much this.

What an awful thread. Sup Forums has really just shat itself recently.

As a Batfag/Wonderfag myself I just assume that to be the reason I didn't like the story but I feel it just isn't a good story and it showcase why I am not a big Superman fan; All the comic does is exalt Superman as the best and he never does anything, the comic keep on telling us about how he is stronger than he knows and how when he left all the heroes just when to hell just because and how his return brought them back but why?

Superman have done nothing in the story to justify such action the comic opt to tell and not show hell in the dark knight return Batman did a whole lot of shit and it was all their did he always win no he got his ass kicked by the mutant leader the first time but this comic never deared to get Superman's hands dirty he does nothing through out the book yet he is the Greatest Hero?

...

fuck you faggot they needed giant laser guns because they are awesome, they beat the bad guys because they actually fought them for once
eat two dicks

>the part in th restaurant
>old heros were really great
>dead man redesign was amazing
>magog was a savage & the hero we deserve
>captain marvels bulge
It's not the best thing ever but that's why I like it

I dont think you understood the post at all.

Moore's Supreme is should be the comic getting Absolute Editions and reprinted all the time
I hate this timeline

this assumes that silver age heroes weren't arbitrarily created

I like the idea that the regular DCU reflects some things from Elseworlds but not all of it. Like in Kingdom Come it was Dick who became Red Robin but in the regular DCU it's Tim who took the identity instead. Or the idea in Morrison's run that it's Old Man Damian who trains Terry instead of Bruce (which if you go by how tragic DCAU Bruce's future became would really fit more with DCU Damian than DCU Bruce)

I dont think it does, it just assumes they werent made by focus testing. Learn reading comprehension.

That damien bit is no longer true.

Huh, never thought of it that way.
But I can say that I like Kingdom Come because it was my first big boy comic having been initially weaned on issues of the 70s transformers comic that my dad figured weren't worth anything. I actually reread it recently and it still holds up, especially since I can actually recognize half the little background cameos.
>Von Back did nothing wrong.

Moore's Supreme should've been entirely drawn by Joe Bennett and/or Chris Sprouse, with Rick Veitch on the retro flashbacks, all the way through and had a conclusion.

comics don't have conclusions that's da point

Welp if pic related isn't a sign for me to finally talk about this..
I DESPISED Captain Marvel(Shazam).
Let me start by sayinh It's been awhile since I read KC. But the stuff I remember about Captain Marvel in particular rile me up.
Billy Batson was always the happy go lucky Gary Stu superhero who overcame his enemies with his diety powers, intelligence and his child innocence. Somehow Lex Luthor corrupted his innocence to the point Billy became nothing but a hired thug and a killer? So apparently all the wisdom of Solomon left him too? I honestly believe there's no way Billy would listen to Luthor. Literally an evil mastermind.
I can see if it was someone like CM jr. Or Ms. Marvel. But Billy (before nu52) had always been shown to be incorruptible. Thats why he got his powers in the first place. Not to mention his target demographic. While Robin was a self insert for kids, Captain Marvel was someone they could aspire to be.
Only for him to be shaken up by Luthor?
It's like they tried to do the Superman arc from the Dark Knight Returns but they made it with the two worst possible pairings.

So basically the Story has no deep Philosophical meaning to it or nothing good to say it exist and is maintained by by virtue of timing and nostalgia damn so Watchmen has great paneling and something to say and Dark Knight Returns distilled Batman into a single book and all Kingdom Come brings to the table is its existence well OK. I just find that odd their are thousands of well written article about Sandman and other great works of art and all I can get for Kingdom Come it pretty art, well that's disappointing to say the least.

Waid is a Superman fanboy, writing a hit piece on everything he doesn't like.

You stupid fucking retard. He is literally mind controlled via a worm you stupid stupid sack of shit.

see

see
you stupid faggot.


Also


> Dark Knight Returns distilled Batman into a single book

Really that is your take away? Not only is it fucking wrong, but thats ALL you got out of it? Are you underage or just absolutely retarded?

When Superman left and superheroes started gravitating towards heedless, gratuitous violence, Billy started seeing the world becoming a dangerous place for children, beyond his ability to protect. That's what Luthor used to pry apart his psyche, the (very real) possibility that he and his orphan siblings wouldn't have survived in such an awful world, and that superheros are tainted by their own arrogance and power.

They implied that as Billy got older, he simply stopped becoming Captain Marvel, and without the wisdom of Solomon he was vulnerable to Luthor. A combination of Luthor and Sivana SCiENCE! fucked his brain up good.

Even as a minion of Luthor's he spent very little time as the Captain, further limiting any effect Solomon's Wisdom might have on his fragile mental state.

Holy shit are you retarded too? Luthor LITERALLY MIND CONTROLLED CAPTAIN MARVEL USING A WORM.


What the fuck. Why is everyone here so goddamn dumb?

and not only is it a worm its Mr. Mind, which would be fucking obvious if you guys were any kind of Captain Marvel/Shazam fans at all instead of whiny ass plebs trying to "fit in."

Nothing new user everyone in KC was a shadow of what they should be Wonder woman in particular was portrayed badly even Waid had to apologise for it and that is something that I find funny about Kingdom Come; The world of KC is basically a mess everything is bad why? just so that Waid could make Superman look good by comparison think about it Martian Manhunter is insane for some reason, Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist I call bullshit the truth is simple all this was done to make Superman's return impactful Waid was chasing the DKR so hard it hurts.

He did that but didn't you read the talk Superman had with Captain Marvel in #4?

>I already got corrected but I'm going to sperge out some more about Waid and make fake claims

Pathetic

Who gives a shit, none of that matters when he is being mind controlled. That is literally the answer and you just went on this big "IMPLIED" bullshit rant for no reason.


I'm not saying what you wrote doesnt have valid ideas in it or nothing, but for fucks sake it is NOT the reason he was acting that way.

holy shit you silly stupid faggot
see

Or when Bruce's lines when he was looking for Billy?

>I can explain one thing so all the other things are wrong

>Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist I call bullshit

So you didnt even read the fucking comic? They say he is only guarding Central (or Keystone I forget) city. Just the one single city. He cant stop moving, yes, but he is only patrolling that single city superhard because of all the other young heroes out there. His city is free of all that. Just like how Batman went full robots.
Goddamn you retard didnt even read the actual book, you silly silly faggot.

Your right. Like I said haven't read it in awhile. But do you really think that even in the "grounded" reality of Kingdom Come the Stamina of Achilles wouldn't btfo whatever virus enters him? Or the Wisdom of Solomon wouldn't keep him from believing in anything other than Superman? I mean even Injustice he follows Supes but reluctantly.
I just don't buy that a worm can make someone lose that much hope and naivete.

I just wanna see more of Nightstar. Is that so wrong?

>Mr. Mind controlling og CM
>ever

Kingdom Come never pretended to be grounded at all. Why do retards like you always think that "grounded" = "pg13"


>I just don't buy that a worm can make someone lose that much hope and naivete.


Its fucking fiction AND its Mr. Mind. Do you even know WHO Mr. Mind is?


Goddamn you are so casual if fucking hurts. Kill yourself.

I don't think Waid's ever written anything worthwhile besides his JLA: Year One

>posting an unrelated gif from the worst animated cartoon
>hurr durr I dont know shit about Captain Marvel's rogues gallery
>hurr durr in this alternate future there is no possible way that the fictional mad scientist Luthor working with the fictional Mr. Mind worm could ever ever control the fictional Captain Marvel
Just end yourself. There is no curing your levels of autism.

K ohana. I didn't catch that panel where he said it was Mr. Mind. Maybe I need to read the book again. Gonna need you to settle down first.

>settle down, its not my fault im retarded

just stop posting if acknowledge you are retarded. Even if it WASNT Mr. Mind, its still just fiction. You would still just have to accept that the nemesis of Superman had a worm powerful enough to mind control Captain Marvel.


This is as retarded as saying "wait a minute, I don't buy this whole 'force' thing" in Star Wars or questioning why Superman cant see through led "b-but he can see through everything else!"


Its the conceit of the story. If you arent willing to accept the story on its own terms and deal with the internal logic of the story then why even read it.

if you acknowledge that***


oh the irony

Apparently it was being hailed as "a love letter to the silver age." Didn't bring anything to the table no matter what
Says.

I'm going to be a little annoyed if she isn't Dick's kid in the new Naziwing elseworld thing.

>It didnt bring anything to the table! Fuck that well reasoned and thought out argument! I dont have a counterargument but its wrong REEEEEEEEEEE
Also that post doesnt even say it was a love letter to the silver age you moronic sack of bile.

Jesus, One user here is really pissed off for some reason

Magog is my favorite character in the book, besides Supes himself.

>people spouting stupid opinions based off misinformation
>almost the epitome of absolute cancer
>get mad at the guy telling them to fuck off

you can fuck right off to you stupid redditor piece of shit. this is not your silly hugbox. if people want to spout an opinion about something they should at least have the decency to actually base that opinion on correct information, not made up bullshit.

Jesus calm down man for fuck sacks.

>Also that post doesnt even say it was a love letter to the silver age
i never said it did. it was indeed a callback to the whole 'what if superheroes weren't good guys' that had been done several times before with Moore, Claremont, and anyone who wrote Spiderman from the 70's to the late 80's. The twist is that every superhero is getting caught by the times. Crimes are getting worse. The smiles are fading. Golden age heroes are old. Heck Ross himself said the story was meant to reflect the state of comics at the time.
I'm not even crapping on it. I'm just saying it wasn't ground breaking or deep in any way.

Shhh. Just ignore him. He'll tucker himself out eventually.

But you still havent refuted the pic you said was "wrong." Its interpretation is just as valid as yours so far. So fuck right off.

>STOP BEING MEAN ON AN ANONYMOUS IMAGE BOARD

why are you still even here? do you enjoy telling people to chill over the net?

>ignore the only guy in the thread who seems to actually have read the comic


god fuck what Sup Forums has become, you guys care more about people typing/talking in a fashion that doesnt offend you than actual comic accuracy.


fuck off and go back to whatever shit hole you came from

>wahhhh superheroes are cool for once
fuck Waid and anyone who defends this shit

Why should you need justification? If you like something, you should like it.

Punctuation, nigga.

Haw haw haw.. The 90s sucked. Admit it. All my favorite bloggers said so.

I've never needed to justify anything I did to myself at any point in my entire life.
If I enjoyed it, I did it. If other people didn't get it, so what? I never wasted time shitting all over things they liked, and I genuinely didn't care what 99% of them thought about or did, because the people who's opinions mattered to me either understood it or didn't mind.
To me everyone else in the world continues to exist as a separate individual, but their actions and opinions are utterly irrelevant to what I decide to enjoy and like.

I've never had this issue of caring what other random people thought about me, not even remotely.
Now if I could only figure out why the fuck they start looking to me for answers to random shit, like somehow being able to make my own decisions in life without needing their input suddenly makes me a "leader" or whatever instead of just a guy with a healthy degree of self-reliance.

okay. one user REALLY likes kingdom come ITT.

put me in the screencap.

>fe without needing their input suddenly makes me a "leader" or whatever instead of just a guy with a healthy degree of self-reliance

user, I don't think you realize how thirsty the average person is for approval and how willing they are to pass responsibility of any kind to the first person who looks even remotely capable of handling it instead of them.

Because that isn't satisfying anymore.

He's saying that's a retarded shit to excuse the contrived scenario used as a set-up for the story.

She's not, Dick has a son in it

Waid is responsible for every subsequent terrible Wonder Woman in every Elseworld ever

No he isnt, stop making excuses for his lack of reading comprehension.

you're autistic, are you Mark Waid

Dude, you literally made up an explanation that is in no way supported by the guy's comment.


>Flash can't stop moving yet crime exist

Nothing about that implies your reading of it. It implies he just didn't understand what was on the pages.

it implies you're a shitty autistic writer who didn't even write the best Impulse

>can't actually defend my argument
>so I'll resort to talking about different things all together

if you killed yourself no one would even notice

You know what always bothered me about Kingdom Come? The end in the restaurant.

The whole comic end on the note that humanity shouldn't be dependent on super-beings too much, be it Magog or even Superman. That when they gave power to Magog reckless actions they end up validating any super-being to act accordingly and that created a mess. Then when Superman came back wanting to set things right because people were uneasy they went the wrong way escalating things further. That's why Superman and the other heroes decide to retire and leave humanity draw its own feet.

But then in the end you've Superman and Wonder Woman announcing that they're having a super-children and you even have Wonder Woman asking Batman to be the kid's godfather because she thinks the kid need a bit of humanity in its life, since her and Superman are basically gods that are even more out of touch with reality.

Well, why the fuck did Waid and Ross decided that was a good note to end the comic? That shit pretty much defeats the whole fucking point of the comic. I understand that they wanted to reward Superman with a happy ending by giving him a Lois 2.0 that won't die on his ass ever due to her superpowers, but in doing that you kinda defeat the idea that humanity won't end with another Magog on their hands. "Us superbeings made tons of fucked-up shit, lets all retire and while doing so put more superbeings into the world, specially one as powerful as my son with Wonder Tits". Like what?

Also, the whole baby thing came out of nowhere. Superman and Wonder Woman were antagonist as fuck toward each other throughout the entire comic.

It became her Dark Knight Returns.

plus have this this all powerful prodigy have a god father who is literately batshit crazy and created a police state that would make Hatcher cream herself

Like right?

I mean, even ignoring the fact that the romance between Superman and Wonder Woman in the comic wasn't developed at all other than that panel where they share a goodbye kiss devoid of feelings - the comic points it out for some odd reason, i guess to show how at odd they were -, i'd understand if the comic ended with Superman and Wonder Woman announcing they set out their differences and were marrying, with Superman asking Batman to be his best-man. You'd give Superman the happy ending he needs and still maintain the point that now humanity has to figure their shit out by themselves because the super-heroes are retiring.

But instead the ending mention that a super-baby is coming in a few months and specifically point out the fact that it might lack the necessary human perspective due to its biology and parenting. Like... why? Why do this?

The kid ended up with a weak-willed fool for a father, a bloodthirsty psychopath for a mother and a crazy fascist for a godfather. Yup, nothing will go wrong there in the future.

The pic in that post is wrong about a very important aspect of the comic: the old super-heroes didn't all retire like he implies. Only Superman did. Every other super-hero of old is shown still active. They just seem to have completely lost their head or character without Superman around.

That's the other thing that the comic fails in. If the old super-heroes had all retired like that post imply, then the comic would actually make sense. That picture there makes plenty of sense. The problem is the comic didn't depict things that way. The comic instead showed that all the old super-heroes had become not much better than the new and reckless anti-heroes that popped up. It seems that without Superman around the JL simple lose their morals and shit. Wonder Woman became disgraced as an amazon for failing to bring peace to man's world and gave in to violence in her frustration, Batman turned Gotham into a police state where even innocents feared the symbol of the bat, Flash constantly patrol his city at super-speed being everywhere robbing the city of its life, and so on.

So the whole old wholesome heroes vs. 90's edgy anti-heroes thing becomes muddled as fuck.

Sexquakes
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It's like this pairing is a recipe for disaster.

No woman can compete with the Hand of Steel

Counterpoint, because i'm trying to be fair:

Maybe Waid and Ross tried to show to show that once the public became rallying for a more proactive and drastic stance from the heroes after Magog execution of the Joker, it weren't just the young and reckless metas that jumped on the opportunity to set out a name for themselves by delivering just that, but also, with time, the old heroes from the JL as well. Maybe thanks to the public outcry heroes like Batman and the Flash ended up becoming more and more hands-on in their ways, while Wonder Woman despite her best intentions gave in to the influence and started to believe as well in violence as a solution to problems. They were all influenced and pressured into slowly change their ways to fit the new paradigm and eventually became too immerse to see or do things differently. Thus necessitating the return of Superman, who still believed in the old ways, to give his old friends and the public the perspective and hope necessary to make them remember and want the good old days back.

But if that's truly what Waid and Ross were trying to do, then they failed in portraying that effectively in the comic. Heck, much about the character details were told in the back-up bios. For example you wouldn't know that Wonder Woman became disgraced by her own people for failing mission just by reading the comic.

You make no sense.

the point was greater co-operation (not dominance) between humans and superhumans, with the whole "among you, not above you" line at the airport and batman's role in raising the child supports that

"We saw you as gods"
"As we saw ourselves, and we were both wrong"

supes and wondy had different outlooks but weren't enemies (antagonistic would describe her and batman 's scuffle mid-battle, which was quickly snuffled when they saw the nukes) - she was the first to contact him when he secluded himself, and they clearly had a history.

the background info wasn't relevant to the main story but helps with establishing the elseworlds version of the character specific to that story, it doesn't really need to go beyond the bonus bio