Finally Watched The Last Jedi

Luke had a real arc in this film. Most of the film is shit I agree but not this. Its explained that Luke had a moment of weakness and Ben lashed out at him because of it, and in the end realizes he was wrong for letting his friends down.

You're completely right but manchildren only want Luke to be a perfect snowflake that never does wrong and will REEE until the end of time because of it.

The moment of weakness is completely unjustified and out of character - a character who found good in the most evil of beings in the galaxy and was able to get his father to see the light and change his way. Luke was always an optimist but in this movie, he senses Snoke and his first reaction is to kill Ben? Granted at the last second he had a change of heart, but the fact that he was about to do follow through is completely out of character.

>unjustified and out of character
>a character who found good in the most evil of beings in the galaxy and was able to get his father to see the light and change his way.
You mean after Luke went into an uncontrollable rage and cut off Vader's hand?

>having a hint of the dark side (fear) is out of character
>in a fucking Skywalker

>moments of weakness are out of character

Jesus christ user

Every time somebody starts the 'luke just had a moment of weakness' argument to justify him trying to murder his sleeping nephew in cold blood they get BTFO and backed into a corner
Better just to delete this thread and move on

Completely agree. The real abomination is Rose. Remove her and the movie would be so much better.

Vader only had to mention Leia turning to the Dark Side to turn Luke into a berserker. Knowing his own nephew might turn into the next Vader under his tutelage must have fucked him up real good.

Luke was a fucking teenager. People become old and pessimistic and bitter. Most of you are. And you haven't even been in a war like he has.

>real arc
>30 years ex machina

woah, how much does disney pay? is it per post or per hour?

>trying to murder his sleeping nephew in cold blood
You mean that thing that never happened? Did you even watch the movie?

>moment of weakness
>sneaked into his nephew's room with a loaded gun and pulled it out

in the real world, that's premeditated murder

The Luke who lashed out in rage for wanting to save his innocent sister? This is something everyone understood. Murdering your nephew in his sleep? That isn't heroic, that's an asshole.

This is such a bullshit argument. I didn't enjoy TLJ that much, but every person that says Luke was this peaceful guy who never killed people and never resorted to violence unless absolutely necessary is full of shit. It's completely in character for him to react the way he did to Kylo.

>The Luke who lashed out in rage for wanting to save his innocent sister? This is something everyone understood. Murdering your nephew in his sleep? That isn't heroic, that's an asshole.
He himself completely understands this. What you want is a Luke with no flaws and who is morally pure. That isn't interesting, it's fucking stupid fanservice, which is something people criticised TFA for endlessly.

It's not just a moment of weakness like in ROTJ. It's callous. Stop creating false equivalencies, you dumb Disney shills.

>92528537
>92528619
>92529055
>mfw mouse shills are still trying to convince people in a Kazakh marble-sculpturing board
No (you)s for you

>Vader only had to mention Leia turning to the Dark Side to turn Luke into a berserker
Are fucking dumb? The revelation meant that they didn't need him anymore. They could have hunted him down on the deathstar with all its forces and then turned on her. The only thing to save her literally was to kill Vader and the Emperor. He had to act in that very moment, his hand was forced.

Stop creating false equivalencies, you fucking IDIOTS.

>Murdering your nephew in his sleep?
You mean that thing he never did? All after getting a force vision of Ben turning to the dark side, which turned out to be completely true?

He didn't pull the lightsabre out until after he saw the darkness in Ben. That's not "premeditated" at all, and it's clear you're misremembering this specific part of the movie.

Elabourate how this is different from him trying to murder Vader after mentioning Leia in the fight. Explain the fundamental separation of feelings. He was overwhelmed by the feelings of darkness residing in Ben and caved into his fear. He didn't try murdering Ben, but he did consider it. Is it callous? Yes. But it's also a moment of weakness that he understood the folly of immediately. That's actually good character writing that gives Luke a little bit of depth. It's not outside the realm of things we've seen him do before.

To add onto this: Luke is actually what TRIGGERED Ben becoming evil, because he was so consumed by his fear of Ben becoming evil. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it actually ties into what Star Wars has always been about.

>Luke was a fucking teenager. People become old and pessimistic and bitter. Most of you are. And you haven't even been in a war like he has.
That argument would hold water if Star Wars was aiming at realism instead of a space fairy tale. So the real question instead is if his character arc was appropriate for a fairy tale. It was in the OT but it wasn't in TLJ.

Why didn't Luke go after Ben?

Does everyone just ignore the Luke flashback and claim Kylo's interpretation was the correct one?

>He had to act in that very moment, his hand was forced.
You mean like how he was presented with his nephew already being turned to the dark side? And he didn't even try to hurt Ben, he only thought about it for a second before he resolved that he could never do such a thing.

>Luke gets taunted by his genocidal father in the heat of battle with threats against his sister
>He refuses to kill him because he sees a little bit of good left in him

>Luke sees darkness inside his nephew and has 'a moment of pure instinct'
>This instinct is to murder the child whist he slept

Seems old age turned Luke from a compassionate family man into a psychopath

>It was in the OT but it wasn't in TLJ.
Why? Also, it's a fantasy movie, but that doesn't preclude realistic character development. The original trilogy had a faery-tale like story with realistic character development.

Who understands this? What are you gibbering about with 'moral purity'? Who is TFA and why do I care what his perceptions of the character are? Why do you think that any of this is an argument for rewriting a character to purposely destroy it?

LUKE WAS A GOOD BOY

HE DINDU NUFFIN

He thought for a second, if he killed one person, he could save the entire galaxy from another Vader.

>He refuses to kill him because he sees a little bit of good left in him
And he does the same thing with Ben. What are you complaining about?

>He himself completely understands this. What you want is a Luke with no flaws and who is morally pure.
No, that's not who we want. The OT Luke is flawed. He set out to save not only the soul but also the life of his father, he failed. And he DID give in to anger. He DID feel the temptation of the dark side but he was saved by sheer coincidence: he inflicted the same wound that his father inflicted on him before.

What Jake Skywalker is isn't a hero with human weaknesses; he's craven coward instead. He didn't even have the courage to challenge Ben openly. Which lengths did he go to to save Ben?

see

>Ben was kidnapped by the First Order as a boy.
>By the time Luke found him, he was already Kylo Ren. Failing to save his nephew left him heart broken, so he left for the temple to find a way to bring him back.
There. Now you have a bummed out Luke without resorting to making him a planned parenthood volunteer.

Him having a moment of weakness of that level is bad, but I could swallow it. What I can't swallow is Luke then running away from the fight, letting the galaxy turn to shit, giving up on Kylo and losing his only special trait developed for three movies: his belief that good will always win. He needed to be reminded how to fight by Rey in the most awkward and unsatisfying way, it's fucked up.

He didn't even have the fucking courage to challenge his nephew openly.

real arc?
The movie sucks and I think the idea was that you will hated Luke's character.

>Its explained that Luke had a moment of weakness and Ben lashed out at him because of it, and in the end realizes he was wrong for letting his friends down.
You know, this could all work... if he didn't go off and sulk for twenty years between the two. And also, if the action he took wasn't a complete failure, suicide to accomplish nothing. And if he and Yoda didn't become book-burners together.

I guarantee you there was an earlier draft where he sacrificed himself to save Rey, where her running off to meet Kylo was a terrible mistake, where after killing Snoke, he had resolved all of his internal conflict, thrown off his boyish weakness, committed himself wholeheartedly to the dark side, and the still-untrained girl Rey was helpless before him.

But Disney's crawling with SJWs and any meaning but the most vague and bland was offensive to someone. Rey couldn't make a terrible mistake, couldn't be humbled, couldn't be saved by a man. Instead, she has to fight Kylo (not wounded this time, or in turmoil after killing his father) to a standstill on her own, then go to leave, and save the Resistance single-handedly, with a feat of the force more impressive than anything shown in the original trilogy.

>Seems old age turned Luke from a compassionate family man into a psychopath
But he didn't. He was always a murderer. And he did try to kill his father until he realised that it was wrong. He become murderous in a moment of weakness, which is exactly what happened in TLJ. The circumstances are different, but his feelings are the same: he fears evil, and is willing to do horrible things to stop evil. But, at the last minute, in both TLJ and in ROTJ, he stops himself. It's just that his moment of weakness has horrible consequences in TLJ.

But the fundamental part of what you're ignoring is that he didn't try to kill Ben. He immediately understood that what he did was wrong, he felt remorse for it, and isolated himself out of shame. He reacted to evil with severe emotion. What is out of character about that? He almost murdered his father in ROTJ, forcefully cutting his hand off because he feared him. How is that not the mark of cowardice in some way? You're being revisionist here.

Luke understands it; he literally says this in the movie. Luke wasn't "rewritten". You aren't even making arguments.

What makes me sick is some of you are probably the same fuckers who signed on with the Dark Empire storyline, yet when Luke has one moment of darkness here, you sperg out.

Also Dark Empire was trash.

As cliche as this is, it's a hundred times much better than what Nu Wars writers can even hope to muster.

>moment of weakness
>caused literally everything after
>is the reason why everything went to shit and millions died
>is still a "beacon of hope"
Who writes this shit? He was clearly in the wrong the entire time but NEVER apologized. His entire fight with Ben was "I'm better than u shitstain LOL smug smug"

All he had to do was apologize.

Again, you just have to compare the dignity that Obi-Wan and Yoda, who just was pretending to be retarded, had in the OT. Compare that to the milk-slobbering geezer that Luke fucking Skywalker turned into. All that to shill their dumb neew characters to us. I hope Disney War fans die in their sleep tonight.

>What I can't swallow is Luke then running away from the fight, letting the galaxy turn to shit, giving up on Kylo and losing his only special trait developed for three movies: his belief that good will always win.
I agree with this. His motivation to stay on the island is thin. But people have convinced themselves that everything about the character writing in this is bad when it just isn't. Some of the people on Sup Forums are as bad as SJWs who are convinced the movie is the best one yet.

You faggots better be baiting. No way can people be this fucking retarded.

Maybe because Luke had a fucking lightsaber out while he was sleeping?

You threw a bunch of non-sequitor shit at the wall and then when I pointed out that it doesn't make any sense you post more disjointed crap and tell me that -I'm- not making any arguments. Are you actually reading what you're writing? Can you respond to what I'm saying right now? What is an apple?

This.

>What are you complaining about

Are you that disconnected from reality that you really need me to explain in full detail the difference between intending to murder somebody and not?

Do you understand the difference between fighting for your life against as assailant and leering over a sleeping child with a lethal weapon and murder on the mind?

I dont know why shills try to defend this so much, better to just accept it was a misstep and spend your time justifying something you actually have a chance with

>His motivation to stay on the island is thin
And that's the biggest issue with the movie's portrayal of him. He causes the issue, and then does... nothing. That's not Luke. That's the opposite of Luke. Even if Luke believed the Jedi needed to end, he'd go deal with Ben and Snoke first. Otherwise he's just leaving the galaxy to be ruled by the First Order.

Bullshit. What would have been his options but to attack Vader? Keep talking with him as Vader ordered his men to extract Leia and bring her to the Emperor? There was a concrete, immediate threat to his sisterand not an abstract, future one.

>Who writes this shit? He was clearly in the wrong the entire time but NEVER apologized. His entire fight with Ben was "I'm better than u shitstain LOL smug smug"
>All he had to do was apologize.
Also this. That final confrontation was utter shit and kind of spoiled what the film was building towards in terms of painting Luke as flawed and Kylo as wronged. When he finally does apologise, it feels forced and out of place, like Luke is just taunting Ben for no particularly good reason. He never really owned his mistake to Ben personally. He admitted he was wrong when he was talking to Rey, but never really laid himself at the mercy of the person who he turned to the dark side. That was a horrible missed opportunity.

>Do you understand the difference between fighting for your life against as assailant and leering over a sleeping child with a lethal weapon and murder on the mind?
Do you understand the difference between trying to actually murder a person and merely contemplating it? He never actually tried to murder Ben and you keep ignoring that because it's inconvenient to your narrative that they completely changed Luke's character (when they didn't).

Everything I posted related directly to what appears TLJ or Star Wars generally. I can't dumb myself down for you.

>the difference between intending to murder somebody and not?
Apparently you need it explained to you, as Luke didn't want to hurt Ben at all. All you can do is screech autistically without presenting an actual argument.

>I dont know why shills try to defend this so much
Some people want new stuff to be better than the old stuff and so they'll bend perception to absurd levels to defend it.

Yea, they could have gotten away with the beardmilk thing and even emasculated him a little more probably, like they did to other characters in the movie, but the point here was to show that everything old is being torn down so that new ideologies can be put into place. The objective was not only to change the franchise into something that was sellable and would influence the soft minds of millennials, but to destroy the vestiges of what remained of it in the minds of its fans from before, hence why Luke had to be so thoroughly deconstructed for the narrative, to the point where it become really, really obvious what they were doing (and attempts to deny it come out as disingenuous to those even making the arguments). The problem is that you can make a good story and you can make a good piece of propaganda, but mixing them together is like getting a little bit of shit in your ice cream.

youre still wrong faggot

Luke's arc was the best part of the movie

I had to watch The Last Jedi twice to completely understand the message and fully appreciate the meaning of this valuable lesson: the past must not only die, but be replaced with a brighter future that transcends it in all its aspects. TLJ expresses that perfectly. Rey doesn't need the Jedi.

Her time with Luke was worthless, and she must rely solely on her own efforts to succeed. The Light does not favour the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi. The Force belongs to all, not just those born with force abilities, who will never earn truly it or will recognizes its gifts.

The traditions, culture, beliefs, and values of the old Saga are rotten to the core and need to perish with those that let them fester in the first place. Luke, Solo, and Leia: they are as guilty as the Empire, belonging to a barbaric time, full of barbaric people, and they are not exceptions.

These antiquated false idols must be eradicated, so the more qualified people of the current generation can realize its full potential without the relics of the past hindering their journey to greatness. Then the galaxy will have peace without those that endangered its prosperity.

I could buy that on some level because people become cynical and bitter and tired when they age. But they didn't explore that enough.

He cut off Vader's hand in a fit of rage, after being triggered by something that had nothing to do with the fight, and held his sabre in his face with the intent of striking him down. His friends were already dying. What the hell did it matter that they were going after Leia specifically at that point? He lashed out in a moment of anger and then laid his sabre down. What he did in TLJ is not a far-cry from that. He sensed the immediate danger Ben posed because of the darkness residing in him. He acted rashly, foolishly, but the movie never implies otherwise. And it's not out of character for him to fear evil after having seen so much of it earlier in his life.

Lol you got troll'd hard faggot. No one meming about this shit even saw the movie. 90% of them aren't even American. They're probably getting paid to troll.

>I could buy that on some level because people become cynical and bitter and tired when they age.
I can't because his plan is basically to let the Jedi die and the Sith win.

You've got a solid point. They didn't actually explore his philosophy at all, or why he prefers letting evil win.

>implying they're not both the same

That arc was out for character for Luke, that's why people hate it.

That's not his philosophy at all. Why do retards make shit like this up? Did you even watch the movie?

Hit yourself in the head with a tack hammer until your body twitches in your death throes.

This. His plan was absolutely retarded, because his death wouldn't mean just the death of the Jedi. You know what could be powerful? If he decided to end the jedi after dealing with all the dark force users. A true break with traditions. His belief that the jedi should end while Snoke and Kylo are possibly ruling the galaxy just makes him look retarded and out of character.

I finally got around to watching it too and when we got to the part where Kylo explains what happened, I was pissed. I thought I understood why everyone was saying Luke's character was assassinated. But than we got Luke's side...and it made a lot more sense to me. I thought it was a good way to make both parties, Luke & Kylo, sympathetic.

And seeing as how Ben went on to slaughter a bunch of kids(?) right after makes me think Ben was already corrupted by Snoke at that point, and that's what Luke saw. That's what made him draw his lightsaber for a second. But he stopped himself. I bet he'd seriously consider lightsaber-ing Anakin before he turns Vader too if he could go back in time.

But that said, I had some problems with the movie. The plot revolving around the ship chase, the casino planet was a slog, who the fuck was pink-haired bitch and why wasn't Ackbar given her role?, Rey's plan to redeem Kylo was dumb. But there was some stuff I liked. Luke and Hamill's performance is #1 on that list.

dude just turn your brain of bro, it's a fun summer movie dude

His plan is that the Force doesn't belong to either side, and that things balance themselves out. But he's letting evil win with no real plan to save lives. I agree with that user.

No, what you posted was a bunch of random shit that sounds like it almost makes sense, then when I asked you what any of it means, you can't give me an answer. Why were you gibbering about moral purity? Who is TFA and why is their opinion an argument? Why does Luke 'understanding' excuse this abysmal writing, and how would anything else be 'fan-service'?

Here's my argument as to why you're wrong: fish orange ball LMN. The green gerbil. Luke's panoptical mirror maze. Everything I posted related directly to what appears TLJ or Star Wars generally. I can't dumb myself down for you.

They were already sparring and it was a learning experience for luke. That's called character development, he almost turns but ultimately decides he'd rather die. At this point he's a wise old man experienced with dealing with his dark sided family. Drawing his saber was such a bad choice

>concise and detailed
>random
Okay, I'm done with you and I'm going to argue to people who actually know things about Star Wars outside of the most basic shit possible.

>I bet he'd seriously consider lightsaber-ing Anakin before he turns Vader too if he could go back in time.

He didn't even consider it when Anakin was actually Vader, shill.

Sauce or this shit has never been said

I think this implies that old, experienced people are incapable of poor decision making or succumbing to their emotions. I disagree with this premise.

>confirmed for having never watched Return of the Jedi

>Luke isn't allowed to have character development after the original trilogy
We get it, you're a whiny baby that doesn't like things to be different.

That's wrong. You're wrong. You're trying to analyze mystical power, you fucking retard. Luke knows that people don't die, just to start with. He knows firsthand with eyewitness accounting that when people "die" they become one with the force.

Jesus shit. Do you faggots even watch movies? I'll repeat--please take a big giant and heavy tack hammer and smash it into your skull and make a hole in it until you're dead.

>I can't explain my bullshit, so when it's challenged I just plug my ears and lalalalala
ftfy

>if you don't want to kill your nephew it's because your a racist who want Luke to be perfect! ONLY REY CAN BE PERFECT!

>and he did try to kill his father until he realised that it was wrong

No he fucking didnt, watch the scene in ROTJ. Clearly he went to defeat and disarm Vader. Thats why hes hitting his sabre (whilst Vader is almost on the ground) and then chops off his hand.
Never does attempt a killing blow
He says multiple times to multiple people, he will not kill Vader

>Do you understand the difference between trying to actually murder a person and merely contemplating it? He never actually tried to murder Ben and you keep ignoring that because it's inconvenient to your narrative that they completely changed Luke's character (when they didn't).

I think your brain has melted pal, read the sentence again. did I say he tried to murder Ben?
I will say it again so read slowly this time

Luke Skywalker had no intent of killing his genocidal father even when pushed to the brink in the heat of mortal combat taunted by threats against his sister

When he came across his sleeping nephew who he felt the darkside in his first instinct was to murder him on the spot

If your cant see how this doesn't fit together than I have no hope for you

what arc? he was a grumpy asshole and then he fucking died

>confirmed for having never watched Return of the Jedi

You mean that movie where Luke spends half the fight running from Vader, dropping his guard and trying to talk him down? The movie where Luke explicitly disarms Vader instead of taking his head off? That movie?

I explained everything already and you proved you were too goddamn stupid to keep up.

He never even says this.

Luke... had a hard life. He tried so hard to do the right thing, but one moment of weakness broke him. The pressure of saving the galaxy twice (many more times if you consider the EU) meant that the minute he faltered over Ben, he let the entire universe down. Everything he had worked for in the OT was all for naught - his sister's son was lost to the dark side, and he knew he would prove a worse threat than Vader and Palpatine combined. So he left. Partly because he was human and ashamed, partly because he knew another mistake would rob the galaxy of something greater than one man: the enduring myth of the heroic Jedi. They needed something to believe in more than they needed him. His failure (at least in his human, and fallible mind) was too great a risk if he should make another mistake. Half of him left to save himself, half of him left to save the galaxy a third time by keeping that small spark of hope alive. Better to die a hero than kill a myth.

And yet he returned. He risked the legend of Luke in one last attempt to kindle that spark. He put it all on the line one last time in the hope he would not fail. He remembered Yoda's words, and realized there is no "try" when it comes to being a hero. He lit a fire under those who still believed in him, and he did it on his own terms: without risking a chance to fall to anger and hurt or kill Ben. Not only that, he stayed true to his own word to die on the island the Jedi were born. And so, by staying true to himself, and out of love for any humanity left in Ben, his final strategy went into action. We still have one more movie to see if his actions ultimately save Ben (I have a feeling they will), but more importantly, the galaxy saw not what Jedi were capable of, but what hope could do. He was born a man, but died a legend. The truth is different from myth, but myth endures - sometimes in spite of truth.

Obviously you don't know enough about TLJ or Star Wars generally if you don't get the reference. It's not meaningless nonsense contrived to look like an argument until you pull back the veneer, it's ESOTERIC LORE that you need to be INTELLIGENT ENOUGH to understand.

A bald assertion isn't an argument. I've already refuted your representation based arguments. Give me something else.

all me btw

>He never even says this
He talks to Yoda and Obi Wan after they're dead who straight up confirm to him that you become one with the force when you die.


You are a literal retard. No wonder Sup Forums is a shithole now. Go back to Sup Forums or your discord where you plan your "raids" and "memes," you fucking faggot

He definitely considered it
And that was when the damage was already done, if he could go back and stop it all before the Jedi were slaughtered and the Galaxy was conquered than yeah he might just do that

Good arc. Consistent and believable.

It's not character development, though. It's character retrogression or, at best, retreading of old character development. They needed to come up with new stuff for him to learn if they wanted to make an arc for him, he doesn't need to be taught not to be a coward because that is what he developed for three movies.

>No he fucking didnt, watch the scene in ROTJ. Clearly he went to defeat and disarm Vader. Thats why hes hitting his sabre (whilst Vader is almost on the ground) and then chops off his hand.
He angrily, violently bashed him until Vader was unable to defend himself any more and then chopped his fucking hand off, and then pointed his sabre at his face while contemplating whether or not he should kill him. Are we talking about the same scene?

>Luke Skywalker had no intent of killing his genocidal father even when pushed to the brink in the heat of mortal combat taunted by threats against his sister
This just isn't true. You can see the moment where the rage drains from his face and THEN he tosses the sabre to the side. He had every intention of ending Vader's life if it came to that, and if you don't think so then you're being a revisionist who can't keep the details of the franchise in order.

>if no one understands what i create, it's because i'm more smart and they just need to get smarter to understand. its not gibberish, it's just really smart

>He talks to Yoda and Obi Wan after they're dead who straight up confirm to him that you become one with the force when you die.
He never mentions this as part of his motivation in TLJ. You're grasping and making things up. Answer the following without speculating: why did he refuse to save people's lives, or to stop suffering, knowing that people would rather live peacefully than be governed by psychopaths? This is outside of just life and death: he let people suffer and live under tyranny. Why? Because of that throwaway line from 30 years before? Really? That's thin.

>A bald assertion isn't an argument.
>Luke going into a rage and cutting off Vader's hand is somehow ok, but him just THINKING about removing a new Vader from the galaxy before his rise to power, somehow isn't
You haven't argued anything user. You're just ignoring anything that contradicts your autism.

>itt tripfag btfos anons
is this bizarro Sup Forums?

>tells Obi-Wan, Yoda, the Emperor and Vader himself that he can't kill his own father
>He definitely considered it

>coward
Fear had absolutely nothing to do with it, it was shame because he felt responsible for everything that happened.

>itt tripfag posts user on his phone talking about how he 'btfo' people on a discussion board
No, just normal Sup Forums.

>anyone who doesn't completely hate everything that I hate is a shill
r e t a r d e d

A literal ghost appearing to you and Yoda revealing the secret of the force that "luminous bodies are we" is a throwaway line? What do you think the movie is about?

You sound like you watched the movies once when you were 15 and you're 30 now and have been memed into retardation and forgotten the entire movie. Like you missed the entire point. So, to save us from your corruption I must insist that you take a hammer and smash it into your temple at full speed and die.

Here's how I know you're a fucking idiot who can't keep up with basic things; you said this:

>Who is TFA and why is their opinion an argument?

(You) clearly can't understand what I wrong, and I am smarter than you or you wouldn't have posted that insipid, stupid bullshit and expect a serious response. Hope you enjoyed these responses.

Yeah, I'm sure he cut off Vader's hand by accident.

>then pointed his sabre at his face while contemplating whether or not he should kill him
So I guess when a cop is pointing his gun towards a dangerous criminal he's thinking about killing him? Great logic, mouseketeer.

>inb4 he was disarmed
You can't disarm the Force, shill.