Explain to me Sup Forums, how was he in the wrong?

Explain to me Sup Forums, how was he in the wrong?

He wasn't.

In which argument, the accords or Bucky?

His intentions were okay, and the Accords weren't a terrible idea but as is always, it was implemented and enacted in a very stupid way. Just as Steve said, people have agendas and agendas change. The whole thing was unreliable. Bucky was indeed framed and the HQ was INFILTRATED BY THE VILLAIN AND SHUT DOWN. Ross was obsessed as shit with capturing Team Cap and wouldn't listen.
Even Tony violated the Accords once he realized the truth. Because they're useless. Putting the Avengers under the charge of a group like the U.N. would just make them worthless. They wouldn't be given permission to actually help anywhere.

he was fucking wrong and so was the women
he was wrong to create ultron he was also wrong to bend under the pressure of guilt
the women was wrong because even if her son died because of tony's actions the him and
the avengers save thousands of lives that day, they even lost one of their own in the conflict.
her son died yes but how many sons fathers, mothers and daughters did the avengers save?

ross was on the board that wanted to nuke new york in the first avengers movie. fuck him

the UN is corrupt, they made Saudi Arabia the head of humans rights council. and thats real life

Leave the UN in charge of anything, least of our all the world's primary Superhero team?
Have you ever fucking looked at the Security Council?
They don't do fucking anything.

I don't remember him being on the board but yes, fuck him. When discussing Civil War, people always seem to forget Ross's history of obsessively and relentlessly hunting the Hulk like a fucking maniac.

the UN has know connections to drug cartels, and sex trafficking. did i mention the human rights commission

Pretty much this. Stark has good intentions, he also did when he was a weapons-salesman, but he puts his trust in complete dickheads and makes fatal decisions based on his own fear and guilt.

He was guilt-tripped into approving of the accords, he was spooked into building an insane killer AI with "borrowed" alien technology. He decided to work with Ross because he couldn't handle the consequences of the mess he'd made, a pants-on-head retarded choice on his part.

He's a technological genius while simultaneously being a mentally unstable idiot A dangerous combination. .

>more government isn't a terrible idea

Did you just stop reading there or something.

Well he's in the wrong because the only thing that needs to be controlled by the UN is Tony himself.

Because he blamed the team for his own fuckups. The only one who should be under lock and key is him.

He is neither right nor wrong, but a nation that can't reign in its superpowered vigilantes is a failed state.

He was not wrong, but his position made him an inevitable obstacle for Steve, especially after what had happened to him with shield in winter soldier. They could be really good friends but Steve's difficulty adapting to the modern world and it's conflicts almost always put them at odds.

How about Bucky? Isn't it reasonable to want to bring him in when he's still unstable and dangerous?

Because at the very end of was shown that Bucky was being miknd controlled so Tony was in the wrong.
I was so missed when that happened. The trailers actually made it seem like this movie was going to have a conflict driven by opposing world views which could both be viewed in the right depending on the viewer's on subjective views.
But nope, mind control. Tony wrong captain good. I mean come the fuck on, the trailer shows Bucky trying to shoot Iron Man in the face and then they just have him be mind controlled so it wasn't actualmy Bucky?

Also the fuck was that final fight? Stupid mind control turned what could have been Tony trying to kill the murder of his killer and Cap throwing everything away so he clould grab into one last fragment of his last.

Instead it's Cap trying to stop an enraged Iron Man from killing his innocent friend.

>They could be really good friends but Steve's difficulty adapting to the modern world and it's conflicts almost always put them at odds.
Isn't it more a question of Tony disliking Steve from the moment they met, due to his own daddy issues and being jealous?

Also,
>He's my friend Tony
>So was I.

What the fuck did he mean by this? Did Tony really think they were actual friends?. At best, they were colleagues who disliked, but respected each other. Tony himself didn't even believe Cap when he said he would miss him by the end of AOU.

He was in the wrong because he didn't do this
>hire Bucky to kill someone, all the while not showing him that you want him dead
>secretly hire a sniper who would kill Bucky afterwards
>frame Hydra for it, all the while tracking down anyone who can shed the light on what really happened

Tony wanting to give control of the Avengers to the UN because a single mother guilted him was stupid. I don't blame Tony Stark for wanting to kill Bucky. Whether he was mind controlled or not, he still killed his parents. Cap knowing this and not telling Tony was a dick move

But why didn't Tony do the same thing Baron Zemo did and go through all of Black Widow's released Intel to find out who killed his parents?

That's the only truly wrong thing he does in CW. Before seeing the footage of of Bucky choking out his mom, Tony was one board with helping him and Cap.

>hire Bucky to kill someone
Bucky's not an assassin for hire, are you retarded?

I think they were friends. Maybe not perfect for each other, but I imagine saving the world a number of times with the same people makes you feel some sort of closeness to each other.

Also I would imagine their initial misgivings about working with each other in the first avengers movie have faded by now.

Bucky was okay living a paceful life, Did you even watched the movie?

Until it was shown that he is clearly still able to be mind-controlled into shooting someone point blank in the face with a few words.

No he wasn't.
You're thinking of the (then) unnamed World Security Council Member played by the late Powers Boothe, who was later identified as a Hydra leader named Gideon Malick in Agents of SHIELD

>Because at the very end of was shown that Bucky was being miknd controlled so Tony was in the wrong.
Does it really make sense? Someone who can't control himself is even more dangerous, even if less culpable. And they seem to agree on that and froze him.

>its totally our fault all those like 20 people died you guys
>we should defiantly follow the orders of the government instead of doing our own shit
>what nuclear missile aimed at a major civilian population?

Except they didn't want to bring him in, they straight up issued a kill order, while expecting Cap to stay away.

supposed to be definitely

>He was guilt-tripped into approving of the accords

He was also guilt tripped into becoming Iron Man.

Stark didn't have good intentions when he was a weapons-salesmen. He didn't give a shit where his weapons ended up, he just wanted to make money and be a hot shot.

Then he got gut checked when all of his half-assed wheeling and dealing came back to haunt him.

Been a while since I've seen the movie but wasn't Ross all for it just so he'd have the Avengers as his own personal attack squad?

They were still bitching at each other in AOU,even after saving New York in the first movie. Remember the wood chopping scene? The multiple times Tony implies Cap is an idiot for not agreeing with the creation of Ultron, the multiple times Cap is obviously annoyed and tired of Tony's childish bullshit? Their conflict with each other has been building up until CW where it culminated in an actual fistfight.

If they were ever friends, I still only see it as a relationship that was created out of necessity, because they're on a team and they have to work together and show mutual respect. I can't imagine MCU Stark or Cap ever sitting down together to have a beer or watch a movie without the rest of the team being present.

Stark wanted to bring him in, he said he would be treated fairly despite what Ross wanted. Is Bucky more important than the innocent lives he might be controlled into murdering?

>Avengers should be allowed to do what people want them to do only after buncha Jews in suits they don't know would debate if they should get green light
If Accords were implemented during Chitauri invasion, they would've nuked Jew York and we wouldn't have gotten Daredevil.

>They were still bitching at each other in AOU

Tony bitches at everyone though. Especially those close to him. If you're not close to him he doesn't even give you the time of day. If he's concerned about you enough to bitch then he cares. This is consistent through all the movies.

When did Tony say that?
Because as I recall, the CIA/German police figured out where he was (or were tipped off) and sent a heavily armed team there.
And Sharron, then working for the CIA warned Cap that they had orders to kill.

Also don't forget that Ross threatened to throw Tony in prison the moment Stark showed any divination from what Ross wanted.

He wasn't

>"Hey guys, pretty much every nation in the world got together and decided they're not cool with a bunch of super-powered foreigners led by a guy whose geopolitical knowledge was frozen in the 1940's just bursting into their countries whenever they see fit and operating on no ones authority but they're own, so they want to implement a minimal amount of oversight to ensure local authorities are at least kept in the loop wit-"
>"NO TONI, U MOVE!!!!!"
>"Steve, this isn't even my idea; I'm just telling you what literally every country on Earth has already agreed t-"
>"FUK U TONI; I'M GONNA GO N' BEAT UP A BUNCHA GERMAN SWATT TEAMS INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING TO U WAT HAPPENED WIT MY FRIEND WHO KILLED UR MOM!"

Didn't Tony genuinely believe he was doing good pre-Iron Man though? Providing the American military with better technology to fuck terrorists? He got all ass-pained about it when he realized Stane had been dealing under the table.

But yes, his main motivators are guilt and revenge, not a good setup for reasonable decisions.

Given what's known about Bucky I could understand them sending a heavily armed team there. But giving them orders to kill on sight instead of if need be was too much.

A few months after the movie was originally released someone here came up with a possible explanation for that.

I forget the finer details, but it was something about Tony being a bit of a social retard, the way a lot of rich people are, who mistook a respectful work colleague (whom his father talked about endlessly) as a friend.

It's scary to think that if Iron Man was released today people would've been enraged.

>the UN has know connections to drug cartels, and sex trafficking. did i mention the human rights commission

Alright boys of Sup Forums how do we become heroes and take down the UN?

tony pls

because he knew tony was a emotionally stunted social retard that would go ape.

which he did when he found out

That's what I always took from it. If people aren't directly shitting on him (like his father did maybe), he thinks that must mean they probably actually like him. Hell, he thought Obie was his friend.

Tony is a bit of an autist when it comes to actual meaningful relationships and showing genuine emotion in front of others.

I intend to sit at home and eat doritos until I accidentally eat a radioactive one that gives me super powers.

Anyone who sides with Ross and shadowy government councils is automatically wrong

The movie conflict just became all about Bucky anyway

If Tony has been presented with the knowledge of how his parents died at another time and under less stressful circumstances, he might not have gone apeshit. Cap himself admits he did wrong by not telling Tony.

>The movie conflict just became all about Bucky anyway
Which was a good choice, making the conflict resolve around personal matters rather than retard politics like the comic.

But he might have also put on an Iron Man suit, blasted off, and use whatever AI he has this week to hack into everything until he found him. It really could have gone either way.

I'm going for the super power called money.

Tony's side was wrong in every iteration of Civil War simply because the actual registration was done half-assedly every time. It only affected street level shitters instead of holding heroes with actual globally threatening powers responsible for anything.

>It only affected street level shitters instead of holding heroes with actual globally threatening powers responsible for anything.

DESU thats kind of how it would happen period. Imagine registering anyone carrying the fucking Phoenix.

>O-oh it says here you can uhh...blow up a fucking galaxy?
Yes.
>Well..um...don't do that...because if you do we'll...lock you up?

It probably could have gone both ways, but it's not as if Tony by the end of CW was still set on killing Bucky once he'd calmed down from his initial shit-fit. He's not THAT unreasonable.

>Brings Spider-man to a fight with people way above his paygrade
The fuck was tony thinking?
I'm glad he realized how retarded of an idea that was and told Peter to stay put afterwords.

Because it would change nothing for the better. Everyone bitched about accountability but that was never the case. Tony made Ultron despite all the others telling him not to. How would having a UN suit telling him not to do something change that?

Cap fucked up by not calling the cops on Crossbones and countries signing an accord saying "Fuck off, don't operate in our sovereign borders" is fine. The UN lining up to make themselves the Avengers' boss was not fine. The secret detention facility intentionally built in international waters was not fine. The destruction of an entire airfield to stop a guy from getting on a plane was not fine. Child soldiers are not fine. Tony flat out ignoring Ross' call at the end and bucking the authority he fought for was not fine.

Peter was spanking their asses through most of the fight though, and it wasn't supposed to be a "serious" fight. .

I walked away from the movie thinking they were both wrong yet right at the same time

Steve needs to get Bucky's dick out of his mouth though

It was an incredibly fortuitous situation that Pete wasn't shot, stabbed, crushed, or otherwise seriously injured.
You do not take someone with such a small amount of street level crime fighting experience and put him up against professional ex-assassins and other super humans!

If anything, the rest of the Avengers is at fault for not doing anything about the PTSD-ridden, dangerously unstable tech genius on their team who happens to be very susceptible to emotional manipulation. Natasha was even aware he wasn't all right in the head in IM2 and deemed him unsuitable as an Avenger because of it.

The guy spends gazillions on creating a device so he can tell a simulated image of his dead father he loved him, and no one thinks "hey, maybe this guy needs actual professional help?"

yeah, but spidey is stronger than any of the captains crew, except scarlet witch.

Captain America always beats Spidey for whatever reason.

Didn't Rhodey ask something like "Jesus how old is he?", a question which Tony just made a face at and otherwise ignored.

He knew he was doing something wrong by involving a literal teenager in the fight.

The true ending was that they were both wrong
>Tony folds and tries to agree with the UN for the Accord deal that anyone with a brain knew would just fuck over the Avengers hard (which it does)
>Cap is someone who screams for justice and protection of everybody yet cannot bring it in him to decide what to properly do in a situation where one life he personally values is threatening and has killed tons of others
They were completely boned since they could no longer swing under the radar as they got stronger and more popular. Just hope that Thanos coming doesn't force another big political crisis that lasts for the entire first movie.

It wasn't "minimal oversight" and "just keep people in the loop buddy :)" it was placing the Avengers explicitly under the control of the UN, which is fucking retarded.

>literally every Captain America movie has been about freedom over security
>the last movie literally confirmed Shield and every other government organization worth a damn had Hydra sleepers in it
>hurr durr TONY WAS RIGHT threads for over a year now
Shame on you, Sup Forums. Cap was right.

They were both wrong desu
Tony was wrong to want to kowtow to the same government that was literally HYDRA a week ago and Steve was wrong for thinking with his dick and how he could get it into Bucky's tight little ass and doing literally everything wrong

He might have been wrong, but he was doing it for the team's good. He wanted to prevent them from being locked up. He tells Steve they'll just fuck the Accords over from the inside if they need to, but making themselves official enemies of the state is counterproductive towards making the public trust them after several Hulk outs and Ultron.

Steve only cared about his butt-buddy, gave no shits about involving Scott and Clint who both have kids.

Just a reminder that one of the shady suits that ordered that attack was Malak from Agents of Shield

>Tony was wrong to want to kowtow to the same government that was literally HYDRA a week ago

A year ago. Remember, the last remnants of Hydra were wiped out in Sokovia by the Avengers.

He didn't force them to do anything.

And Tony was the one that pretty much coherced a teenager into a fight way above his level.

>implying nuking New York would be a bad thing
it's full of freaks and inhumans. the MCU would better off without it

>it's full of freaks and inhumans.

No it isn't. The only enhanced person from NYC is Spider-Man. And he was just a regular little kid when the battle of New York happened.

He wanted to "be held in check" by the people who were going to nuke New York and then blamed the Avengers for minor collateral damage in New York.

>enhanced

Who the fuck was above his pay grade? Anyone of any threat to Spidey was on his side

Um, all mutants get registered as a rule of thumb. Hope and Jean have been in the system lad.

Hank lives in San Francisco. Not NY.

Wanda? It didn't automatically have to be one from the opposite team injuring him though, Rhodey was fried by Vision.

>enhanced
>>enhANTSed

When will you ever use those words in the same breath?

>Who the fuck was above his pay grade?

Cap, Wanda, Scott and Bucky (but only if he was in Winter Soldier mode), but only because he's never fought anything beyond the average crook at that point. Mind you, Cap did beat him one on one.

>Iron
Man the scene in Gulmira is so cool.

Cap didn't want to sign and was retiring. Then the UN bomb happens and they put a bounty on his bbf head. Tony didn't believed Steve when he tried to explain the situation. Tony is a retard and Cap was right.

When you're a villain intent on making him kill people for you?

Oh Tony believed him about Bucky being brainwashed, he just didn't give a shit.

It already came out long after the War in Iraq, so I can't imagine people getting any more pissed.

No the accords were wrong for the simple reason that Governments would employ the Avengers to further their own agendas and cockblocks them from acting against their interests.
Go re-watch the Incredible Hulk and The Winter Soldier the government is all kinds of fucked up.

That government was infiltrated by HYDRA, but it shouldn't be after WS and AOU.

This.

Bucky was a walking bomb and since rehabilitation is unlikely he needed to be incapacitated even himself realized hence why he agreed to be frozen. Cap was being emotional and could not just let it go.

The U.S that is. But what about other countries? Remember the Avengers were going to be put under the UN charge.
Also, the US is already a mess when it comes to super humans without Hydra intervention.

>But what about other countries?

They would've probably dealt with their own since all of Hydra's secrets were leaked onto the web. Stern was arrested at the end of TWS because of that. Other people in other countries likely followed suit. Though I imagine some of the less gentle countries probably just had them snuffed not long after being apprehended.

Any who weren't were likely the among those with Strucker in Sokovia. Though they were finally dealt with by the Avengers themselves in AoU.

Bending to Ross is wrong because you put yourself in a position where you are forced to follow orders. Tony even went against it by recruiting Spider-Man, so even he's not completely on board with the idea of the Accords. Early Tony wanted to ensure that his weapons never fall into the wrong hands and this is why he didn't want the government to have Iron Man suits. Now he uses his suit whenever they order him to, which doesn't seem like the right move for Tony.

>Waah my son died
>even though there was literally no other option to stopping Ultron but waah
>Gee I guess it WAS my fault, I must sign the Accords.

Ultron needing to be stopped in the first place WAS his fault.

I think the problem is more enforcement.

You could maybe ask Hulk to sign up and register and agree to this shit, but if he goes HULK SMASH enough and breaks that accord do you really thing anyone'll be able to do anything about it?

He created a sentient murder machine and then blamed everyone else for what it did, instead of turning himself in.