Was Civil War necessary?

Was Civil War necessary?

How many times will we explore the riveting theme of "Stark is wrong"?

But Stark was right.

...

No he wasn't.

Steven wasn't right, either. He was just less wrong.

h-he was mind controlled guys xdd

Real question,
Is civil war II necessary?

>Tony we're nuclear weapons and scare the shit out of people, we need to be less scary and allow some oversight until we can come up with a better plan so that we can be there when needed.

>Steve we're nuclear weapons and while overt Hydra is gone, covert is still thriving, we can't allow ourselves to be tied by those we can't trust when we are needed out there.

The mind-controlled unit who is no longer able to be mind controlled because the MCU version of Jason Bourne figured it all out.

>Play ball, Mommy issues
vs
>No Kangaroo Court, Brother Issues

fpbp

As many times as they can get morons to pay to see it.

>Steve
>less wrong
>the guy who, immediately after refusing the accords, goes and puts random civilians in danger via car chase to stop the authorities from arresting his buttbuddy

Steve could be right in principle but his actions in this movie justify the accords more than anything else, the guy clearly seems to have his friends' interests at heart more than the population's when he does shit like freeing Wanda.

>How many times will we explore the riveting theme of "Stark is wrong"?

pic unrelated.

You don't help 'the population' you help the people in front of you. Cap is no communist.

The only thing missing was Captain America saying 'Hail Hydra'

I think the movie did a far better job displaying the conflict between steve and tony than the real PoS comic ever did.

>you help the people in front of you

You mean you go half a world away to kill your enemies?

Stark was made right because of Rogers' actions. Rogers could have had a point had his entire side of the conflict not been totally motivated by selfish reasons.

People are absolutely terrified of Maximoff and her destructive potential after a badly botched mission goes public, but it's wrong to tell her to stay put and lay low until they work something out.

Barnes is a dangerous ex-terrorist who tried to assassinate several diplomats, mind controlled or not, who is still under active brainwashing and can turn any second, but it's wrong to take him into custody and figure out how to deal with him because "muh friend."

1.2 billion dollars says yes

The bad things Steve predicted if they signed the Accords were far more likely to happen than the bad things Tony predicted if they didn't.

It was necessary because people FINALLY stopped talking about Civil War becoming a film.

Are any of the movies necessary? We got a large assemble cast including Spider-Man and Black Panther and a Zemo who was just according to keikaku.

...

This, OP didn't understand the movie, clearly.

I think you wanted to make a clever pun, but it didn't work. It's "ensemble" not assemble.

Not even Tony Stark thought he was right. Not really. Everything he did in the film was based off of whatever he most recently felt guilt over.

>Steven "Bucky dindu nuffin" Rogers
>less wrong

That is a real criticism of Civil War
Why did it never really address why Tony was possibly right
But there's not really a good movie topic for that space between AoU and IW
Especially since the solo phase 2 movies had the "Where's the other Avengers?" thing hanging over them

>but it's wrong to take him into custody and figure out how to deal with him because "muh friend."
>take him into custody

"It wasn't me, I don't do that anymore."

"Well the people who think you did are coming, and they don't plan on taking you alive."

They planned on killing Bucky.

About himself only.
He, alone, was the only hero that created more chaos with grandstanding or through direct action than he quelled

It's why he supports it in the first place.

In comparison, neither Thor nor Captain or Hawkeye or Blackwidow have been responsible for the path their foes walk on; nearly every other hero in the MCU was trying to prevent damage done by individuals who were going to do it anyways

Ross did say "Barnes would already be dead"
Why didn't they get the Avengers to find Bucky?

He was right though.
Up until Bucky was brought in for Zemo to activate, he really hadn't done the attack on the Sokovia Accords

>Why did it never really address why Tony was possibly right

It did, Cap was about to sign until Tony revealed he had Wanda placed on house arrest.

>but she's dangerous and people were scared!

So was Tony when he created Ultron and Sokovians hated him even before that. Where was his house arrest?

This 100%. He rides the Miriam Sharpe Guilt Train until he gets evidence that the bomber wasn't Bucky, then he admits to Falcon that he was wrong and flies to Siberia.

Tony was wrong and he proved it twice in the movie. The first time, by recruiting Spider-Man and Black Panther without having them sign the Accords, and the second time by flying to Siberia without Ross' knowledge/permission.

Not really, but even if he did the movie didn't realize establish more of it considering that the last time we saw Tony Stark he made a murder robot
So he's coming off as ignorant and dickish
In the comics he wasn't really coming off an event like that, it was as the resistance continued he basically turned into a Stalin-Hussein hybrid
Perhaps if you hadn't seen AoU that would have worked

So you help literal criminals because you have personal connections to them rather than innocents otherwise you're a commie?
You're seriously making commism look good.

Also Cap is the one with KGB agents on his team.

I'm pretty sure if they wasn't gonna kill Bucky he would have let it go

But don't you get it, they're his nakamas, and that counts for more than innocent peoples' lives.
People are allowed to be huge assholes, if they're your friends and have a half-assed sobstory.

:^)

This was coming off the fact that he saw first hand what would happened if Avengers fell into the wrong hands.

But to be honest this is all moot, and probably going to hurt them even more when Thanos makes earth fall and wreck everyones asses in the first movie.

Maybe later, because what we got was barely a brawl, not a war.

So?
Is a cop allowed to barge into court causing physical havok because their former corrupt partner is supposedly being treated unfairly?

Again that demonstrates why people like Steve need to be held acountable, otherwise they go and put innocent people's lives in danger every time they have a sentimental reason to do so.

what the ever loving fuck are you talking about?

Was it me or was Ross pretty much a fucking idiot for showing the videos? How is it the avengers fault for both the Chitari and Hydra events?

I mean seriously fuck SHIELD was back by the government.

>was Ross pretty much a fucking idiot for showing the videos?
Not really
>How is it the avengers fault for both the Chitari and Hydra events?
It wasn't, but that wasn't the point. It was emotionally manipulating or shaking them.

Look at how Steve glances from Wanda back to the video, he knew what Ross was doing. The point wasn't to prove they're responsible but make them feel irresponsible for not being able to stop collateral. Wanda didn't put that bomb there, but she failed to stop it so hanging the deaths over her head is a quick way to get her to pipe down.

Your argument is misplaced
In that universe Cap is 2 movies removed from having to save the world from a mass murder from helicarriers and finding out that a world security organization was filled to the brim with double agents from a Nazi death cult

How the fuck would you trust ANY government after that?

Kinda pisses me off after the stunt he pulled in Harlem.

It's especially hilarious when you remember their plan to deal with the invasion was to nuke New York City, and that Ironman nearly died redirecting the warhead.

>referring to superheroes by their last names

Supervillain detected

Both sides had thier point and should have worked to reach a better compromise. Between the UNs refusal to consult the Avengers on the Accords and Zemos machinations the whole undertaking is doomed.

There's nothing wrong with oversight- The Avengers needed to be accountable for thier actions, especially after the event of AoU. But to make them beholden to the U.N. is dangerous not only becuase of political baggage (Country A is attacked by Aliens, but countries B, D, and F in the same region refuse to let the avengers help them because the unrest is good for them) but also because of the bureaucracy of having to be deployed by multinational commission before they could do anything.

They were attempting to kill him, not arrest him. They were given kill-on-sight orders.

Wanda being treated as a weapon of mass destruction was stupid. Yeah, she killed a bunch of people by accident, but that was because she was TRYING TO CONTAIN AN ACTIVE EXPLOSION.

They should have made her more directly responsible via actually losing control of her powers, not just the explosion contained by them.

NOt trusting governements is fine as long as you at least follow a modicum of legality, Cap clearly doest throughout the movie.
"We don't need the accords" would be believable if he didn't cause so much mayhem.

It's not like she willingly pushed the Hulk to wreak havok in South Africa or anything-

>The bad things Steve predicted if they signed the Accords were far more likely to happen than the bad things Tony predicted if they didn't.

Dude, the bad things that Tony predicted started with the global government hunting them all down like dogs.

And really, Tony Stark has so, so, so much more to lose personally than Steve Rogers does. True, most of it's money, but it's so much money and Tony has been doing better things with it lately. Registering was the right choice for MCU Stark.

So? Watch the scene, Cap rams in cars filled with agents just doing their job, in a highway tunnel filled with bystanding drivers,The only reason he doesn't kill people is because the writers decided it would make him look bad.

All that to save a literal serial killer from being supposedly unfairly killed.

Yeah he's his friend, and that's my point, friends don't trump legal responsibility.

And if all the legality is under the control of corrupt governments?

You can bet you ass it will! #SLAY

Does it make putting people in danger to save litteral assassins a good thing?

His argument was "We need to be in control of our own actions, not politicians with agendas"

Which would be a sane argument in principle. Except right after that he showed he couldn't be trusted to act responsibly because he had his own personal agenda.

You cannot fucking tell me that saving Bucky was in any way for the benefit of anyone other than the both of them.

So killing an innocent man is okay?

Apprently, according to cap ramming into cars filled with innocent agents doing their jobs.

>You cannot fucking tell me that saving Bucky was in any way for the benefit of anyone other than the both of them.

j-just you wait until Bucky saves the universe from Thanos!!

Thor has SOME responsibility for Loki.

But Asgard is a foreign state and Thor is a fucking royal. Nobody consulted his people about this Accords bullshit.

You say this as though Ross cared about those agents either

Whether it's the case or not (nothing in the movie indicates that Ross has any intention beyond stopping Bucky), does that excuse Cap in any way?
Again, these cars were on a highway filled with innocent bystanders.

>s a cop allowed to barge into court causing physical havok because their former corrupt partner is supposedly being treated unfairly?

See, you would be right, if they intended on arresting Bucky. But they didn't. The officers had orders to kill.

Steve went to make sure they wouldn't kill him.

>nothing in the movie indicates that Ross has any intention beyond stopping Bucky
Sharon said "We have orders to shoot on sight"
Ross himself said "Barnes would have been eliminated in Romania"

Barnes was innocent and plus the chase scene also has to do with what Black Panther did, who was violating at least the spirit of the Accords that his father signed.

Also there was probably no intention on Steve's part to actually fight the hit squad sent to kill Bucky
He was probably trying to get Bucky to come quietly

I've got a question
Why didn't Friday talk Tony out of killing Bucky?
That seems like something Jarvis would have tried to do

"I don't care. He killed my mom."

Jarvis would have probably at least gotten Tony to ask what he was doing
Friday didn't seem to resist

jarvis didn't really second guess tony, it just snarked.

friday isn't anywhere close to as advanced as it.

My question is, why is Black Panther treated any differently? He chased after Bucky with the intent to kill, participated in the same highway pursuit, and didn't sign the Accords, just like Steve. Yet he's not considered a criminal? Why?

Politics. Arresting a foreign dignitary looks bad, and it could force the Wakandans back into isolation, so he walks free. Exactly why the Avengers shouldn't get wrapped up in bureaucracy.

>police come to arrest your best friend, who you believe is accused unfairly due to mind control

Let them take him quietly, he will have his day in court, resisting will just look worse.

>police show up and immediately try to kill your best friend without even giving him a chance to surrender

fucking shoot them back, they deserve it and there's no point in trying anything else.

Cap was 100% right to fight those agents and would have been justified in killing them. If someone tries to kill you, you kill them back and that doesn't magically change because they have a badge.

>why is Black Panther treated any differently?

Because he is a political leader.

having an AI in your suit that can second guess you at critical moments sounds like a bad idea honestly. What if it encountered some logic error and started trying to talk him out of stopping a world ending threat? Also there's no reason he'd expect an AI he made to have better judgment than he does

He was only wrong in Ultron. In CW he was as wrong as Cap, two wrongs cancel each other so he was wrong just once.

Stark was right about everything but Bucky.

Him, Widow, and War Machine are probably the only people in the entire film with any common sense; it wasn't a case of "is this right?" it was a case of "it doesn't matter if it's right, because it's happening now and 80% of the human population is in favor of having some say as to whether or not we unleash the Hulk, for example. So lets just sign the dotted line for now and try to politically steer things from there."

Well Cap was originally just going to retire, which was his right to do, until later that day the goverment decided to out a kill order on his best friend. It wasn't like he planned to be an Avenger without signing until the immediate circumstances demanded it

>So lets just sign the dotted line for now and try to politically steer things from there
Bruh, the second anyone signs that thing you aren't steering shit.
You saw the Raft, the movie showed you what's waiting for the superpowered people, what kind of "say" the human population is in favor of.
Tony even tells Natasha after she crosses him that now they'll come after her so she has to run.

Also

>War Machine
>common sense

His point wasn't "it doesn't matter if it's right; it's happening anyway." His point was "look at Ross's shiny medals, a guy like that can do no wrong." war machine was simultaneously the biggest idiot and the biggest statist cuck in the entire novie

No, BUCKY would have been right in defending himself. Those SWAT officers were doing their job as it was given to them, and it's not a case of "obeying evil orders." Bucky, even without the bombing in Vienna, was considered armed and EXTREMELY dangerous (and Zemo PROVED that to be true), and those officers had no reason to believe he wouldn't kill them, much less come quietly. Those officers posed no threat to Cap until Cap got himself involved, and he put good men in danger to save a man who he himself had no reason to believe wouldn't kill them either.

Which pretty much went against everything Cap said about "the safest hands are still their own." He acted selfishly throughout the movie, put good people in danger in doing so, got his friend arrested/broke up the Avengers, all for a wild goose chase. Sure, Zemo would be free and they would have killed the wrong guy, but when you consider the actual events of the movie, that's not really all that terrible an alternative.

I say this as a Capfag, btw.

>those officers had no reason to believe he wouldn't kill them

they didn't even announce their presence. They just started shooting straight away.

>Those officers posed no threat to Cap until Cap got himself involved

And? Cap is just supposed to let them kill someone else because that person isn't himself? I guess superheroes just shouldn't exist at all.

>He acted selfishly throughout the movie

If the only way to not be selfish is to let the state execute people you care about without a trial, Cap is definitely in the right to be as selfish as he wants.

>put good people in danger in doing so

"good" people? No

>got his friend arrested

He would have been killed instead

>broke up the Avengers

The Avengers were already broken up regardless. Half of them were going to just retire. "Breaking up the Avengers" isn't on him.

>all for a wild goose chase

Just because the super soldiers were dead that doesn't make it a goose chase.They still caught a guy who was brazen enough to bomb the UN in broad daylight. There's no telling what he could have pulled off if they never caught him and he came up with a second plan.

>Sure, Zemo would be free and they would have killed the wrong guy, but when you consider the actual events of the movie, that's not really all that terrible an alternative.

Justify this statement. Really.

>war machine was simultaneously the biggest idiot and the biggest statist cuck in the entire novie
It's especially bizarre and ironic after the events of IM2 where he learned firsthand authority figures will put pressure on him and his when they want something, but immediately after they get it, after he beats his own friend up for them and hand delivers Stark's armor, they'll just resume business as usual. They handed over the modifications to Hammer, who handed it over to Vanko who weaponized what he could and almost got everyone killed if Stark's rogue behavior didn't get in the way.

And yet it's right back to square one EVEN after he no doubt learned of the level of ineptitude up top given CA: Winter Soldier happened after IM2. The guy who put pressure on Stark was revealed to be Hydra in CA:WS. How many warning signs does one man need to see before he avoids a head on collision. Even if you don't lose complete faith in the chain of command, you still should have some degree of skepticism and individual thought instead of bowing to rank.

Chances are it comes down to the Russos having to reset Tony and Rhodes to facilitate the conflict of the movie, but it's a lot of egg on their past experience. If the MCU was a more compact series CW should have folded with IM2 where Stark and Rhodes were both more naive and volatile, not after they'd learned how quickly lying down can cause problems for others. Admittedly they've both gone through stress over the years so it's reasonably understandable they were starting to fold back into old habits on one hand.

But on the other Steve sends his little letter and Tony ignores Ross' call for assistance when the Raft is raided, so that's something of a step forward for them, but Rhodes? He basically tells Stark he didn't learn a damn thing and doesn't give a shit. There's making a character steadfast, and then there's making them a stubborn idiot.

He doesn't having a leg to stand on.

>He doesn't having a leg to stand on.

ouch bro

Well, Tony's kinda forced onto the Accords side because of his guilt

What argument does he have against the Accords when he personally made a murder robot?


What do you guys think will happen after the second infinity war movie? Are they just gonna be free or what?

>Are they just gonna be free or what?
I'd say saving all life in the universe at the risk of your own counts as a pardon, yeah.

>they didn't even announce their presence.
Depending on the situation, this isn't always what they do. If the team has every reason to believe the perp is going to resist with lethal force (which Bucky is exceedingly capable of, is the prime suspect,) they don't have to announce themselves at the risk of their own personnel.

FACT OF THE MATTER IS, there was no corruption involved in the operation to take out Bucky. That was standard counterterrorism. Bucky was a wanted terrorist for blowing up a meeting of world leaders. If you think a SWAT team is going to announce themselves when they not only know who and where you are, but also that you are a highly trained assassin supersoldier capable of inhuman feats of combat by your lonesome, you don't go to arrest them; you take them out and you. shoot. first.

As the viewer, you have all the facts and genre-savvyness to know Bucky didn't do it, but in the context of the actual film, Cap did not. If Cap had known that Bucky didn't do it, he'd be justified in going in to save him, but he was under the impression that Bucky was the prime suspect as well until Bucky told him "I didn't do it." He didn't go in to save an innocent man; he went in to save his friend whether or not he was guilty.

Cap went in for selfish reasons and put good men at risk in doing so. What would he have done if Bucky was the bomber, and Bucky killed a dozen SWAT officers because he interfered? The only "righteous" side to what Cap did is that he got lucky in his judgement, in that Bucky did not do it, which he had no real reason to believe at the time

The only reason you think he was in the right is because things worked out in the end, and as the viewer, you could predict that, because it's a case of being smart enough to know things aren't always what they seem in fiction. However, if Bucky was the bomber, and he had slain officers in his escape, that's several families that lost a loved one thanks to Cap's hands being "the safest."

He may have not known Bucky didn't do it, but there was also no way to really know Bucky hadn't snapped out of his brainwashing

Regardless of whether Bucky bombed anyone, he'd be justified in defending himself from being killed by those guys. Guess what? Zemo WAS the bomber, and he was brought in alive.

>Cap went in for selfish reasons and put good men at risk in doing so.
Oh not this shit again. He tells Bucky himself he doesn't want to fight him but he will floor his ass, like before in Captain America: The Winter Solider where Cap saved the fucking world from Bucky solo lest you forget, and bring him in if he's back on that Winter Soldier shit.
That is precisely why Bucky even then tells him he's not and it wasn't him.

Even if Steve wanted to specifically help Bucky, he went in to spare the men an ass whooping instead of just giving them one and then running off with Bucky. They stormed in and caught what was due. In fact Steve being there lessened the hurt because he tells Bucky not to kill, Bucky of course claims he won't and wasn't going to but still the fact remains Steve and Sam were there to mitigate things personally something everyone else barking orders from a safe distance were unwilling to do.

While that sucks, that doesn't really change the fact that Bucky is one of the most dangerous man and is easily capable of killed those men if he wanted, which they had every reason to believe he would.

Which brings me back to me previous point that Cap got lucky and things worked out in that regard. Mind you, innocent people are dead after Bucky's conditioning was triggered, the Avengers are splintered, the world trusts them less than ever, there was no looming threat of Winter Soldiers taking down a nation in the end, and Cap basically wasted everyone's time.

But hey! At least they got the right guy, right? That's going to really help the world out in the end. I mean, it's not like he's sitting in a Wakandan Prison without a care in the world because he got exactly what he wanted or anything...

AOU Tony:
>irresponsibly creates an AI (by himself) that tries to end all human life

>Rest of Avengers clean up his mess

Civil War Tony:
>"guys we all need to be reigned in okay? we're all too powerful"

>If the team has every reason to believe the perp is going to resist with lethal force (which Bucky is exceedingly capable of

so just merely being powerul enough means due process goes out the window? That would be a killer supervillain plot actually

>really hate someone and want him dead but don't want to be connected to his murder
>kidnap him and give him superpowers, then let him go
>frame him for a crime
>the cops shoot him on sight because he's too powerful to take to jail

Your argument is that the hit squad was justified even though they was wrong and Captain America wasn't justified even though he was right?

>Mind you, innocent people are dead after Bucky's conditioning was triggered

How is that Cap's fault? He's not the one who decided to put him alone in a room with a psychiatrist that wasn't properly vetted.

>the Avengers are splintered

Do you not know how to read? Half of the Avengers were going to retire, this was already pointed out.

>and Cap basically wasted everyone's time.

How so? They caught the real guy who bombed the UN AND taught Black Panther a valuable lesson about killing for revenge. Just imagine how much worse off the world would be if one of the most powerful nations of the world had a king who was willing to kill anyone who pissed him off.

You're also conveniently ignoring how committed Zemo was to his goal. He already bombed the UN and wrote it off as collateral damage in his first bid to destroy the Avengers. If he gets away and has to try again, what further lengths might he go to?

>But hey! At least they got the right guy, right? That's going to really help the world out in the end

And how much would the world be helped if they killed Bucky? If Cap wasted a few people's time in catching Zemo, the government wasted many more man-hours and taxpayer dollars going after Bucky. Any criticism you throw at Cap for this can be applied to the government tenfold.

>he got exactly what he wanted

He wasn't allowed to die, so I'd say he really didn't.

Pretty sure the motivations of comic Tony wasn't the worst thing about his actions in Civil War

>Cap got lucky and things worked out in that regard

No, the point is you don't have to be lucky if you do it Cap's way. If they killed Bucky and then found out he was innocent, well, nothing can be undone, they killed the wrong guy and everyone just has to deal with it.

If they find out somehow that Zemo actually didn't bomb anyone and was manipulated into being in the wrong place at the wrong time or something, they can just let him out of jail.

>every fucking superpower person under the direct governmental power of SHIELD
>SHIELD turns out to be evil Nazis
>WHY ARE THESE SUPERPOWER PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND LOOSE!?
>Never mind the person that caused the absolute most damage was a 100% vanilla human being with a drinking problem.

Was it wrong for Bucky to die? Banner mentioned that he tried to kill himself to not endanger people and only failed because he transformed into Hulk and didn't die.

If you are a danger to society in ways you can't control, is it right to keep endangering them? If your steal someone's organs, that'd make you a bad guy no matter how badly you needed this transplant. If you had a deadly plague, you don't have right to run amok. So what makes Bucky different?