I want to convince (You) that The Last Jedi din't kill Star Wars, it just raped the dead body. I'm going to ignore all the political shit, this is solely about the narrative.
>About Star Wars
Everything in the Star Wars franchise feeds of the original trilogy. It's Luke's story that justifies the entirety of that universe, everything that comes before it is a lead up to, and everything that comes after is a consequence of. On top of it, all that exists around the original trilogy is exploring the universe created in there. And all of that is only possible not because Star Wars was made with this highly complex world, but with a very simple one that was very good at creating a sense of wonder.
Yes, wonder. This word is summarizes everything about Star Wars. The scenery, the soundtrack, the characters, the character design, all about it was to enhance that feeling of wonder and mystery. Even with all of the flaws of the originals, with all of the problems in production, they have been keeping that aspect. And aside from all of those other elements that help in creating the Star Wars atmosphere, there is one that condenses all of it:
>The Force
The Force is this mysterious magical power that guides the universe. It's not something to be thoroughly understood, just to be there. Much more like a God's power than science, which is even more clear when they refer to it as an "old religion". So The Force as a concept is the backbone of the Star Wars. Not just in a lore aspect, but in everything. If you remove the Force, Star Wars dies.
And there is a particular moment in the original trilogy that settles the Force as this godly power, not only proving it's in-universe existence for the audience, setting it aside from being just an "old religion" or a gimmick, but also but also fully amplifying the mystery of it, while making us understand why it's such an important and necessary power in the universe. That moment is when Luke destroys the Death Star.
1/4
The death of Star Wars
>Luke and the Jedi
A lot of people claim that it was a fluke or a plot hole, but truly that moment is one of the peaks of Star Wars and a most necessary part. Destroying the Death Star wasn't easy, it was impossible. By having the plans, all they could find was a heavily guarded exhaustion port. To destroy the Death Star one would have to fire a missile through that port and reach the reactor, that doesn't come down to skill, a miracle would need to happen. And truly, after getting devastated in a suicide mission, things seem to be at their worse when Luke does pull out a miracle and manages to land that shot: not because of his skill, but because of the Force.
That is a turning point for the whole series and basically justifies everything in that happens next. We now know why the Jedi are so important, and why it has to be Luke to defeat the Empire, and not just some very skilled soldier. Without that moment, a Jedi is really just a guy with some gimmicks, all the wonder and mystery of the Force is over and it becomes nothing but a baseless religion.
2/4
>The murderer
The prequels, as bad as they could be, they don't really affect the origina trilogy, they are mostly self contained. The Force Awakens, despite corroding parts of it, doesn't really dig into the backbone of Star Wars, and for a good part, it's rather respectful to the base of the series. With all of the pandering, politics and shitty writing, it doesn't try to kill the things that made it good. Rogue One, however, maybe intentionally or not, does something different.
The entire plot of the movie is around the Rebel group that managed to get the Death Star files to Leia. Up to this point, considering all sub-plots, nothing truly corrupts the franchise. It's only one character, with one small retconning, that does it. When the engineer of the Death Star betrays the Empire and include a designed flaw into the project, and then hands it out, the whole point of Luke relying on the Force to land a miracle shot disappears. Because of this small detail, that shot didn't landed BECAUSE because of the Force, the plan wasn't a success BECAUSE Luke pulled a miracle. It all worked out because one guy betrayed the Empire. The exhaust port wasn't a weak point the Empire was aware of and so made sure to protect it, it was designed to be shot at and blow the entire thing. Luke using the Force isn't so that he could do the impossible anymore, it's so that he could compensate his lack of skill - if the whole was designed for that purpose, any skillful pilot would have done it, no space magic needed.
That small retconning in Rogue One manage to kill the entire backbone of the series, it's justification, and all the sense of wonder it had built. The Force becomes just a gimmick, and Jedi aren't necessary. If you stretch it a little, you can even think that the force was the Empire's weakness - if their leaders were less of religious nutjobs and focused more on hiring reliable people, their spaceship wouldn't have a designed flaw, after all.
3/4
gay
>The Last Jedi
When Rogue One did this and got away with it, it opened a door that can't be closed. With the originals effectively dead, and thus the source of Star Wars itself, there is nothing holding them back anymore. What evil could they do to Luke's character when everything that justified him is already gone? Make him a suicidal Jedi, who cares? Reverse everything he stood for, his reasons were erased anyway. Rey becoming a master of the Force with a day of training? Well, she is just particularly in pulling this gimmick off, so what's the problem?
There is absolutely nothing that The Last Jedi, or any other Star Wars product, can do that would retroactively hurt the franchise more than Rogue One did. All it can do is play with the dead body of an once beloved franchise. Yes, it's gruesome, it's horrendous, it's sadistic, and makes me wanna puke, but whatever they do to it won't make them the killers, because the true murderer came silently and went away right under our noses, as just a harmless "meh" movie.
4/4
TLJ fails at basic storytelling. It pulls random events out of thin air, and hand waves them as if it were some new ability. It is nothing but a series of random convenient plot interventions, made by a crew that believes that is what science fiction is.
Eh. Rogue One was a story that really didn't need to be fold, but it felt consistent with the Star Wars universe. I see your argument but the design flaw was still pretty hard to hit, especially under the pressure of being pursued by a bunch of TIEs.
I'd agree that Last Jedi didn't kill star wars, but only because Force Awakens had already mortally wounded it by having the galaxy and the major heroes all back to square one.
Rogue One was a fake out for me that got me to watch Last Jedi at all.. I thought maybe they could salvage the mess, but BOY OH BOY was I wrong
Luke spent his youth shooting womp rats in his T-16. He spent the space journey training basic force use in the movie. The original film established his abilities before sending him out to save the day. He followed the plan that the film was based on acquiring. It was the kind of quality story telling worthy of a film that costs money to make.
TLJ does none of that. It was made by amateurs that wasted a billion dollars without knowing how to write a basic short story.
Rogue One is fine by me because it still held some reverence for the Star Wars "lore", which to me is the most interesting thing about the series. For example by namedropping the Whills and the Kyber crystals. The Asian guy who had a deep respect for the Jedi "religion" despite not being Force sensitive was a really cool and daring idea that expanded upon the established mythology.
Despite retconning away all the oldshit from Dark Forces about Kyle Katarn stealing the Death Star plans, Rogue One would have felt right at place in the old EU by virtue of the fact that it was made with some deeper care for the series as a whole.
By contrast, the sequel trilogy movies don't feel like Star Wars at all. TFA was soulless and TLJ was an outright disrespect to the OT.
Indeed, but as bad as it is, I simply cannot blame it for the state of Star Wars. The Last Jedi fails as a movie, as a story, and as a sequel, and doesn't hold back into directly attacking the originals, but as grave as it's flaws are, Rogue One's crime looks smaller yet goes far deeper.
If you analyze Rogue One and The Last Jedi on their own, TLJ is clearly the worse movie. Yet, when you look at them inside the overall Star Wars story, Rogue One manages to damage the central point of the story, while TLJ continues to just be an embarrassment
>because Force Awakens had already mortally wounded it by having the galaxy and the major heroes all back to square one
I do agree this is a major flaw and probably the worst thing TFA brought, but still isn't as bad in potential. By doing that soft "reset", TFA did undermined the ending of the original trilogy, the fights and sacrifices, but it doesn't undermines the lead up to that point. Everything else still made sense and, at least at the time, it was a problem that could be solved.
When Rogue One kills the justification for the character arcs, specially the protagonist, it undermines not only the ending, on top of TFA, but also the whole lead up, and retroactively the prequels (as if the could look worse).
To make a parallel with another franchise, take Lord of The Rings: if you made a fourth movie in which Sauron attempted to return yet again, you'd undermine the battle to stop him, but everything else to the story would remain the same. Now, if you add that the One Ring was actually fake and never tempted anyone, then it kills the story.
With you single it out, Rogue One isn't bad. It's not that good, but not horrible. The problem really lies in the consequences of the Death Star retconning. If that wasn't in there Rogue One would be, at the very least, harmless to the franchise.
rogue one is the worst SW movie, that shit is qorse than the prequels.
Did you think that Vader was under the impression that the rebels had stolen his cupcake recipe? They knew exactly which plans had been stolen, and what losing the plans would mean to the Empire. Did you think the Empire would do nothing in preparation in the long timeframe between the leak of the plans and the eventual rebel attack?
I don't even know what you're trying to imply with this. If they prepare or not, it doesn't matter. The thing that Rogue One changed in the overall story was Luke's miracle becoming a good shot on a designed port to be shot at. And that is the problem.
And no, there is nothing even hinting that the Empire knew about the flaw and just solved it, which would undo Rogue One's failure. Right now, as the canon stands, Luke destroyed the Death Star solely because one guy planned that in advance, and not because of the Force.
Luke destroyed the Death star because he was able to hit a difficult target after a youth spent hitting other difficult targets, and became slightly better by using the force. The target was there because the designer put it there. Were you expecting a "self destruct" button clearly labeled on the outer surface? Maybe you thought character dialog somewhere was omniscient narration? You are putting a lot of effort trying to fanfic your way into disliking one of the best films of the franchise, over something that is only inconsistent in your imagination. If you want to whine about something inconsistent, complain about Luke's father being dead from a certain point of view.
>The problem really lies in the consequences of the Death Star retconning.
Not a big deal whatsoever. Youre just mad it messes with your headcannon. It messes with how you choose to see the movie. I'm not even sure what your complaint is. Luke still did the impossible, and it was because the Force.
In the OT it felt that Luke was being carried along by destiny (the Force) rather than bending it to his will, like Rey
>Luke destroyed the Death star because he was able to hit a difficult target after a youth spent hitting other difficult targets
Nope, his skills do exist, but the reason why he did it was the Force. It was his moment to fully rely on the Force, and not on him, to achieve the objective.
>Were you expecting a "self destruct" button clearly labeled on the outer surface?
That completely misses my point. That port being a designed means it was meant to be hit. It turns a miracle that only a force user like Luke could pull off into just a slightly harder target. It undermines the role of the Force and, by consequence, hurts the backbone of the entire franchise.
>into disliking one of the best films of the franchise
Never said I dislike nor that Rogue One is bad as movie, I'm simply pointing out that this retconning hurts the franchise as a whole. There is a huge difference here.
>over something that is only inconsistent in your imagination
Never claimed inconsistency. The port being a designed flaw is very much consistency. The problem relies on the consequences it brings. The importance of that moment of the destruction of the Death Star, not to the conflict or that specific point of the plot but to Star Wars as a whole, is killed by that change.
>Luke still did the impossible, and it was because the Force
Hitting a port made to be hit isn't "the impossible". Maybe a bit harder task? Yes, but not a miracle as it was portrait in the originals.
It's not headcannon: in the originals, Luke hit the port specifically because he relied in the Force. The port wasn't meant to be hit, it wasn't a flaw someone planned, it was the only weak spot they could find, and yet impossible to do it.
By making that port into a design flaw that was engineered to be used, completely changes the scenario - unless you're trying to argue that the port, despite being made to be a flaw, was also made to be impossible to hit, which is just self contradicting.
The originals never meant it to be a miracle, only difficult. It was the plan that all the pilots were ready to attempt.
>You need to state it clearly because I can't read in between the lines
The plan failed, and they weren't going to make it. Despite being skilled, Luke wasn't able to shoot it. Then, he gives in to the magical space wizardcraft and does it. No one calls it a miracle, but it's what it was. Doing something that wasn't possible before, thanks to the Force.
A miracle would be if they had to corkscrew through the death star interior. The port was a straight drop inward.
>By making that port into a design flaw that was engineered to be used, completely changes the scenario
So what? We all know R1 retconned the nature of the exhaust port, but I don't see how it "kills Star Wars".
>Hitting a port made to be hit isn't "the impossible"
And yet it would have been impossible without the Force. No other pilot would have been able to do it besides Luke.
I stole the plans to the Death Star
>The port was a straight drop inward
If we were to ignore Rogue One, a "straight drop inward" would be impossible to get right. Not only hitting the missile there, but making it go all the way down a straight line is barely impossible, specially when the thing is basically working against it. We are talking about a missile going kilometers in a straight line with a 1 ~2 meter accuracy. That's just impossible, unless, and now considering Rogue One, the thing is designed to do just that.
Since the port was designed as a flaw, we can assume it was made in a way to make sure that anything dropped in there would reach the reactor (otherwise, the flaw wouldn't be usable and the whole thing would be self contradicting).
This is basically what I'm trying to say here, before Rogue One, that shot was basically impossible to be done right, and only succeed because of the Force. After Rogue One, it was a designed mechanism that made the whole thing very much doable.
>but I don't see how it "kills Star Wars"
Different things with different consequences.
>No other pilot would have been able to do it besides Luke
They relied on Luke because of skill, and he succeed not due to it, but because of the Force. That is the original version. With the Rogue One retconning, the Force loses it's meaning because the thing was designed for that very purpose. All you need was a decent skilled pilot, not the Force. It's this undermining of the Force that is the whole problem, it reduces it from being this mystical Force into being just a gimmick.
>not being Force sensitive
>All you need was a decent skilled pilot, not the Force.
wrong. "Use the Force, Luke. Trust me." -Ben Kenobi
...
>Trying to quote something as if the line was written with the decades later sequel in mind
I'm starting to wonder if you know what retconning is.
You just missed the entire point.
Star Wars is like ancient Rome. It never had one true breaking point. It just went on a decline phase that's now much longer than it's overall lifespan. You can argue it went downhill with Rome after the sacking of Carthage. With Star Wars, it was already going wrong before RotJ with the EU.
The only exceptionally good stories to come out of Star Wars was the first two movies and parts of the third. Everything else in varying degrees either sucked, or undermined the themes and characterizations of the first two movies, often both.
Rogue One is just a side story, like the comics, cartoons and videogames. It's allowed to be different and even shitty, they could even retcon it if they wanted, but its really irrelevant and it could never be as harmful as the 3 last episodes of a main story shitting on that very same main story.
Did the "use the Force line" get deleted from A New Hope? No, it didn't. Christ you're stupid. R1 didn't change anything about A New Hope except adding that the exhaust port was a sabotage. Literally nothing changes about the big picture.
The idea of the Death Star's flaw being a conscious act of sabotage by some designer is beyond stupid and it just serves the purpose of yet another parent/sibling drama.
Also, the death star plans go back to AotC and it makes no sense that some guy is forced to design a weapon that was already designed.
You fail to realize that one does not simply put a design flaw in a ship the size of a planet.
The small small hole was maybe not meant to be shot by a skilled pilot. Maybe the engineer didn't even have a plan for the rebellion to abuse the only weak point. Maybe he thought that they would send probes, infiltrate in it, send a guided missile... Maybe he just hoped that the rebels would find a way... somehow. And that miracle happened for both the rebellion and the engineer, made true by the Force, through Luke.
The real hero.
I hated the blatant stealing in R1 so much I replayed Dark Force the same day.
>having the galaxy and the major heroes all back to square one.
this, the rebellion was all for nothing, and all of Luke, Han and Leia's character development was wiped away
Except that Rogue One makes directly implications to the main movies. As I said previously, if it wasn't for that retconning, it would be a completely harmless movie for the franchise, but that change cause massive consequences to the over all story.
Yep, you're just incapable of thinking, can't draw conclusions or think further, if it isn't spoken out loud it doesn't exist.
>Did the "use the Force line" get deleted from A New Hope?
No, it didn't, but the implications of the entire thing change.
>Literally nothing changes about the big picture
Wrong. Everything changes.
>Before Rogue One
>There is this one weak spot we found, let's go all out on this one suicide mission and maybe try to defeat them, we know it's basically impossible but if we fail we are doomed
>Luke, you are good at this, we will trust you
>Everything goes to shit
>Luke can't do it on his own
>Use the Force
>Luke uses the Force
>The impossible happens
>The Force is real and the Jedi will defeat the Sith
>After Rogue One
>There is this one conveniently made port here, it was made specifically to destroy the main reactor, it's a suicide mission, but once you get there we basically won
>Luke, you are good at this, we will trust you
>Everything goes to shit
>Luke can't do it on his own
>Use the Force
>Luke uses the Force
>Engineered hole does it's job
>The very possible plan, that made use on a engineered flaw, succeeds.
>Force is still just an old religion gimmick, that helped him concentrate, since it's thanks to the port that it all worked out
And because that point is so important, these implications are massive.
Star Wars as a story had run its course in ROTJ. Further expansion of the story made mysterious elements of it lame. Now the sequels just feel like fan fiction
>TFA is a Mary Sue adventure, complete with a perfect protagonist that all the established character just love and are totally impressed with
>RO was a tonal mess due to Disney meddling. Edwards wanted to make a serious war movie using SW. Tbh it would have been cool, to see it played in that way. Disney was never going to have it so it became the abortion it is
>TLJ is the death knell. Johnson made a SW deconstruction that just sucked any interest out of a rather simplistic space adventure. In going for its greying of the previously black-and-white morality of SW, it broke the setting, lore and tone of SW. Why? Because Johnson thinks he's been clever. It is only 2.5 hours long because Disney wanted a big epic film. Hence, the Space Vegas and pointless subplots.
I know there is the EU but really that's a real mixed bag. There is world-building in SW but its not deep or super thought out. It's just a nice, interesting setting to tell the story of Luke's hero's journey.
>You fail to realize that one does not simply put a design flaw in a ship the size of a planet
This is basically what the guy does in Rogue One. He deliberate creates a weak spot in the Death Star so that someone who found those plans would be able to use that to destroy the ship. That exhaustion port, in one scene, went from being an ordinary exhaustion port to being an "insert missile here, blow Death Star" mechanism.
>Maybe the engineer didn't even have a plan for the rebellion to abuse the only weak point
He did, that was his entire point.
>And that miracle happened for both the rebellion and the engineer
Nope, because the flaw he made was very specific, and used later on. So it wasn't a miracle anymore, it was just the work of an engineer with the help of a guy capable enough to fire a missile in there.
gay
Gay
>this highly complex world
It's not you retard. The OT was exactly so successful because every dumb child aka you could get it.
They ruined the happy ending of ROTJ, period. They have nullified the entire OT. There is no further debate.
>TLJ does none of that. It was made by amateurs that wasted a billion dollars without knowing how to write a space fairy tale.
FTFY
your autism is off the charts, dipshit.
Luke would not have succeeded without using the Force. You cannot refute this, and your attempts to are pathetic.
TL;DR
But it is obvious that op is trying to take the heat of off TLJ by claiming SW was DOA. Now that op is BTFO, he just needs to EAD and GTFO.
We don't even know what the Sith are in Star Wars.
>The Force is real
The Force had several beats implying it was real, and while I suppose the destruction of the Death Star was the final, largest and most impacting, "DO YOU GET IT NOW?" Moment, there were others.
>It's not you retard
>Proceed to agree with me
I don't even know why I try....
>They have nullified the entire OT
I guess people don't read the thread before posting anymore.
"Luke would not have succeeded" and "no one would have succeeded" are two different things. When the guy engineered that flaw he didn't do it based on a force user (again, if he was going to make something that the rebels couldn't use he would be contradicting the entire point of making it). In other words, landing that shot and destroying the Death Star wasn't impossible, in fact it should have quite the likelihood of succeeding. It wouldn't be easy, but nothing worthy of some miracle.
Before Rogue One, however, when the port was simply an ordinary port, landing that shot into it, and making it go all the down right into the reactor was an impossible deed, though necessary. It's why the Force was so important at the time, but it gets it's role completely undermined after it.
>You cannot refute this, and your attempts to are pathetic
So because you can't understand this even when I try to simplify it down to a child's level, that means you're right? Great.
>But it is obvious that op is trying to take the heat of off TLJ
>The Last Jedi din't kill Star Wars, it just raped the dead body
Nice bait, made me reply/10
>Before Rogue One, however, when the port was simply an ordinary port, landing that shot into it, and making it go all the down right into the reactor was an impossible deed,
And after R1, it was an equally impossible deed, except for a well trained Force-sensitive pilot like Luke.
Keep on grasping at straws tho. I dont think you even know what your point is anymore.
>I guess people don't read the thread before Alright, please give me a second chance:
Nice blogpost, faggot.
The Disney writers have no sense of time. Just like in the marvel movies, everything happens in a span of days, and so the whole thing is no longer an epic, but just an action story about a few moments.
The original 6 movies all had large spans of time between movies, that is why there is a crawl at the start of each film. it's to explain what's been going on.
All the new movies, again, like marvel, just seem to all happen right after each other. They don't even need the crawl, cause we just saw what happened, and there is no gap of time.
That's why their is no character development, and Rey being a Mary Sue super wizard is such a retarded and contrived plot hole. She just goes from 0 to a million in a span of a few days.
The whole series has lost its sense of being an epic, and has been replaced with forced action.
It's the same thing happening to game of thrones. When corporate writers get a hold of things, they have no sense of time, distance physics, politics. They just write in a bunch of visual sceans, and then contrive a forced plot to get there. The visuals drive the plot, the story is not the focus.
> it was an equally impossible deed, except for a well trained Force-sensitive pilot like Luke
>I will risk my head and to fuck up the entire fight against the empire to make this one flaw in the Death Star that is capable of destroying it but that no one we know can actually make use of it and so even if they try they will all just die out, instead of designing a flaw that can actually be used and pose a threat to the Empire, like, you know, an actual intelligent person would do. But hey, all the fun is in hoping a Jedi will just pop out somewhere, choose our side, in time for the fight, and use the Force for this one port I designed that could only be used in this very particular scenario
Yeah, makes so much sense. Really. It's top tier stuff. Your conclusions are amazing. Are you some kind of genius? I mean, really, your IQ must be high as fuck. You're probably going to solve all of humanity's problems one day, with a brain of that size. It's amazing, amazing. I'm blessed to have ever met such a bright person. Your intelligence is so big it's actually infectious. I feel like I gained 10 IQ points just from this small exchange. Right now I'm calling my family so that they can come here and we can read this again together. I want everyone to be blessed like I was today. I want them to see this light that your sparkle. They will probably be just as amazed as I am. I'm sure they will all become smarter too. In fact, we should just put this on national television. The country would benefit so much from reading it. The level of logic you're using is just amazing. It puts Ancient Greek metaphysics in the garbage, philosophy became a child's play after it. But, in the end, we can only hopelessly long to one day be as bright as you are.
>user comes shitting up in the thread bring points already made and dismissed
>Tells him to read the entire thread before posting because it has already been discussed and going back every time someone raises the same argument simply kills the discussion
>He reads 4 posts that started the discussion, ignoring the rest of the thread
>Fails to understand what a blogpost is
2 years are not enough.
I didn't like the prequels.
I didn't like TFA, although I didn't hate it.
I really didn't like RO.
But none of them made me not be a star wars fan anymore. That's what The Last Jedi did. I wont go see the next one, and thats the first time in my life.
>I wont go see the next one
Yeah right. December 2019 you will be in theaters watching Episode IX just like half the people on this forum who complained about TLJ