Doctor Who General - /who/

No More 12th Doctor Edition

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@Edge_Lord_Victorious, look what arrived!

Many, many thanks to you Edge for two (!!!) very kind Christmas gifts. It really means a lot to me to have stuff like this to home up the apartment a bit, it makes things so much nicer and more cosy. Had to get delivered to Aus first, then routed to here ("the long way round") but was well worth it! I really appreciate you spending your own coin on gifts for me, very Christmassy, and very, very appreciated. Thank you so much!

What chapters should be added to the history of /who/?

(*) denotes a minor event

>August - November 2013: The 50th Anniversary
>December 2013: The Last Great Trip War

>January - July 2014: Series 8 Filming
>July 2014: Leak /who/
>August - November 2014: Series 8
>December 2014: The Secret Santa

>January - July 2015: Series 9 Filming
>March - July 2015: Stream Wars Episode I: The Fuckofferino Menace
>23 August 2015: The Last Great Gallifrey Base/Sup Forums War (*)
>July 2015 - September 2016: Stream Wars Episode II: Attack of the Thorax
>September - December 2015: Series 9

>January - December 2016 - The /who/-atus
>January 2016: The Showrunner Falls
>July - August 2016: Series 10 Filming
>August - October 2016: Shit Trips: Volume 1
>11 August 2016: The Orford Intervention (*)
>October - December 2016: A Class Act

>15 March 2017: The Second Last Great Gallifrey Base/Sup Forums War (*)
>April 2017 - ???: Stream Wars Episode III: Revenge of the casualwhostream (ongoing)
>April - July 2017: Series 10
>April - July 2017: Marshallgate
>July - September 2017: Shit Trips: Volume 2
>16 July 2017 - ???: Invasion of the Boardies (ongoing)
>27 - 29 August 2017: The Last Great NuWho haters Editing War (*)
>November 2017 - ???: The Great 2017 /who/ Wiki Reclamation (ongoing)
>September - December 2017: The Hybrid Era
>2 December 2017: Mark Robert Michael Wahlberg (*)
>December 2017: The Secret Santa II
>December 2017 - ???: Rise of the Trip OCs (ongoing)

>January - April 2018: Shit Trips: Volume 2.5 (ongoing)
>January 2018 - ???: The Catterson Chronicles Chronicles

Here it is, /who/! The official rankings have begun!

Note: Know that a google acct is required to hinder duplicate responses, but the accounts aren't recorded

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There are some minor memes I think worth adding, like the genesis of "cease the mockery" (I remember this very, very well, I can cover it), maybe some forced/spammed/forgotten memes here and there (like jazz hands).
I'll do plenty of archive trawling and my memory will get jogged of other things I'm sure.

Rose 7/10
The End of the World 9/10
The Unquiet Dead 7/10
Aliens of London/World War III 6/10
Dalek 10/10
The Long Game 5/10
Father's Day 9/10
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances 8/10
Boom Town 6/10
Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways 10/10
The Christmas Invasion 7/10

This is great, well done dude, I'm working my way through it now

Also there's a moment or two related to Cloister that might be worth covering.
Mongo of course, that's a huge one.
I think Chumbley and Captain Roberts had some moments mayyyyybe worth covering, you know what I mean.

first for this show is fucking bad

rose 6/10
end of the world 7/10
unquiet dead 6/10
aliens of london world war three 4/10
Dalek 8/10
Long Game 4/10
Fathers Day 7/10
Empty Child/Doctor Dances 10/10
Boom Town 5/10
Bad Wolf/Parting Of The Ways 7/10

Doctor Who is dead.

Doctor Who is dead.

Anyone else hate when someone criticizes a story for what it "should have been"?

They don't even talk about the episode but rather their idea of what the episode was going to be in their heads.

Like ok, you wanted something different, fair enough. But the show doesn't revolve around you so how about talking about what DID happen??

Absolutely. Particularly annoys me with movies (inb4 but u le hated TLJ for what it did with luke :^)) too. Crit the ep for what it is, not what it could have been, cause that's just an endless conversation of woula coulda shoulda, not actually about the ep itself.

twitter.com/ultimatepikafan/status/951093525638275072
Interesting Or not

Rose 8/10
The End of the World 7/10
The Unquiet Dead 6/10
Aliens of London / World War Three 6/10
Dalek 9/10
The Long Game 5/10
Father's Day 9/10
The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances 10/10
Boom Town 5/10
Bad Wolf / The Parting of the Ways 9/10
The Christmas Invasion 5/10

Edward Russell said Jodies tshirt has the LGBT sign on it, they really want to alienate all the fans huh? as someone who supports gay rights, that is just fucking cringe

It could be the recent Fan Show with Moffat talking about TUAT that the BBC sent themselves a copyright notice but I don’t see why that would strictly appear on a Thirteenth Doctor playlist so it COULD be a scheduled video........Logo reveal........

not

Edward Russell doesn't work on the show anymore.

It's just proving Jodies Doctor isn't a female doctor, but an agenda doctor for radical feminism and queers.

What's the haps on gallifreybase?

>From what I have heard, it appears The Doctor is saved from her fall with the help of local Sheffield police. Officer Yasmin and Graham meet her when she is with the police chief (Sharon D Clarke) and in her post regenerative haze, she offers them some remarkable insights into several crimes they are struggling to solve - think Patrick Jane in The Mentalist. She keeps going on about recovering her TARDIS but needs to construct a machine to help her locate it. Something sinister at a local scrapyard captures their attention and the Doctor accompanies Graham and Yasmin there to investigate,simultaneously pilfering pieces of junk to construct her device.
That's episode one. Speculation, innovation and a bit of a soft yet grounded reboot to the show and the concept.

hype desu

→
He has honest opinion, some time spot on criticism and not retarded like Hbomerguy but he is too cynical for his own good.
I remembered his the web planet review and how he bash nuwho for not tried to be creative like this story or how the end of time had less rating than it.

Oh. My. GOD!

He said! That the sign on Jodie's shirt Is the LGBT sign!

My entire understanding of Doctor Who's political affiliation has been transformed! Potentially right-wing BBC script ideas have been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constraints of this television show's evidently obvious Tory-focused political leanings have been changed... forever!

kino pasta

This pasta cracks me up, GOAT scene and I can hear his voice perfectly.

the long game is underrated

Edward Russel has never been employed by the current production team of doctor who and has literally zero insight into anything after the final wrap on tuat

I'm glad they reached you safely

jodie will stay as long as baker, i can feelio it

I liked it a lot more when I was a kid. I do think it's interesting structurally, how it stealth sets-up the finale. That was less effective when RTD tried to do it again with the Cybermen 2-parter in s2. The kronkburger reference is kino. I like a lot of the story really. But Adam just tanks, I get what they were going for but it just doesn't land for me at all, and it never really comes together for me. I like it overall though.

:3

A COMPANION TRUE

the long game is rated

I remember folks saying this for Tennant, and for Smith, and for Capal.
I do think one day someone might honestly try (and of course fail) and challenge T Baker's record, maybe not until the next iteration of post-cancellation Who (NeoWho?) though.

there is literally nothing wrong with rings of akhaten

Yeah I'm more amenable to this one. I think it's great and I honestly suspect there may, MAY have been very early, light conversations about Cross being Moff's successor at one point. Moff was uncharacteristically hands-off for S7B, and Cross was one of the early writers to really meet the challenge of almost showrunning his own eps (two!). Gaiman struggled a lot with that.
It's a real proper DW story, actual new alien designs, alien planets, sci fi! GOAT music! The Clara stuff is unfortunately undercooked, though some of that was the fault of the series itself. Really like that ep.

>The next relaunch of Who will literally be called NeoWho
Holy shit Neo, are you playing some kind of Long Game here?

Real talk, is the overt politicization of Doctor Who, specificially to left-wing politics, damaging to Who's viewing figures. A majority voted for Trump and Brexit, after all. Is this a serious issue? It actually might be, jokes aside.

kek. I really do think that might be the term people use! NewNewWho is too clunky. WhoTwo would be inaccurate.

Have you seen Moff's maligned-by-some comments about writing the show not just for modern liberal yuppie types?

I kind of want a future Dr to be a 22 year old drama school graduate who stays in the role for a quarter of a century, with 2 3-year hiatuses in the middle for family life.

there are literally some things wrong with rings of akhaten

Imagine Neo actually running the next relaunch of Who. What would that even be like

>A majority voted for Trump
(not true by the way)

Idea:

1963-89: WhoI
89 - 05: Who2
05 - : Who3

Is this bait? What does trump have to do with doctor who? a majority didn't vote for him either

Also the show really isn't that politicized, at least not anymore than it always has been

Why would I be worried about that.

Potentially if it becomes too blatant, sure, but the character inherently has a certain anti-authority streak and distaste for money. You could never write her as a Tory, even back in Pertwee.

This is prob gonna get me killed by some die hards, but I believe that even the worst episodes of NuWho are more enjoyable than the most boring of classic Who (which unfortunately tends to be quite a bit of it). I'd easily watch Fear Her for the entertainment value any day than watch most six-parters.

I feel too, may be not long as Tom but Pertwee.

That's just taking cool names like Classic and Wilderness and making them uncool

electoral college, where it counted.

Honestly if I could do anything it would be to ease focus off the writing and acting a little bit and try and bring the show forward in terms of visuals, direction, sound design, more creative prod and set design, then shooting that in more creative ways, etc. Doctor Who has had ~50 years of coasting off often brilliant writing and acting, but excelling in other areas (I'm pointedly not mentioning music since the show has been kino there a lot too, consistently) has been much less consistent. More directors like Talalay who have very strong visions is the right way to go imo, even though that can be tricky to handle. But if I was running things, I'd like to ease focus off the scripts a bit, probably to the irritation of lots of folks. There's more to a show than writing and acting.

Intermittently Classic Who (and Big Finish fwiw) eclipse the highest heights of NewWho, but generally I think NewWho is the most consistently strong of the three. Maybe it's due to the level of collaboration and competition if nothing else.

Cornell said he saw 3 as a Tory.

Very good taste.

Would you be happy showrunning the show as completely trad, but with stellar visuals and sound like you say there?

I don't think electoral representatives are a significant portion of Doctor Who's audience. Besides, they don't necessarily agree with who they voted for, they're just doing their job.

The EC only works if you still see the value of the US being a union of states. It was designed with a very hands of federal government in mind, but today that isn't the case and a direct election may be more suitable today.

I agree, nuwho and classic who are such different shows in terms of packing that it's hard to even compare them in terms of pure enjoyment

NuWho is never as boring as Classic Who, but the worst NuWho isn't just boring, it's infuriatingly retarded in a way Classic Who never manages.

...

Yes, absolutely, and rad/trad is a distinction in writing, so it'd be inconsequential to a degree the way I'm thinking. If David Lynch directed a Mark Gatiss ep, the last thing people would be thinking is how dull and Gatissy it was, they'd be overwhelmed by what Lynch did. Even tripe like Night Terrors could be kino under a brilliant director. This isn't so much a Who specific thing either, the majority of TV is overly pedestrian if not in visuals then definitely in sound. I legitimately can't think of any non Twin Peaks show that really deployed its sound design in creative, brilliant ways. Doctor Who is up there with stuff like Game of Thrones in terms of leading the pack in music, and I really think people underrate the writing of the show at times, but there's so much untapped potential in other aspects.

Although rad + kino direction would be even more kino. Imagine Malick doing Listen.

the thing that frustrates me the most about this is the way they wrote TARDIS as "t.a.r.d.i.s"

This, give me a Classic Who plodder over The Lie of the Land any day.

Well I will say the last thing I would have expected from "Neo showrunning Who" is you shilling for trad and Gatiss, but you've sold me.

What's wrong with 'a jolly good smacked bottom'?

spanking is bad, m'kay?

Why can't I just float through the walls

I once heard someone say the reason Sherlock is bad is because it's "not good at being a detective show". Now I was never a big Sherlock fan, but I watched it when it was on. And it did start to decline towards the end imho, but not for that reason. a proper detective show, you can work out the ending. most sherlock eps, he just pulls the solution out of his ass. But thats the thing... its not a detective show, its a show that has a detective in it, but theres no proper murder mysteries. it was never even trying to be a detective show. the show's focus is sherlock and john, and their friendship. Moff himself once even said it wasnt a detective show...

How can something so wrong feel so good

Is it unreasonable for someone to expect a Sherlock Holmes adaptation to be a detective show and judge it by the standards of one?

You bet.

if it's meant to be a show between Sherlock and john they could've just made a show about that relationship but without both being Sherlock and John.

Maybe it comes down to your personal approach to media, but honestly I kinda think so. At least I think you'll enjoy a lot of things less if you go into everything with strong preconceived notions, especially about genre, especially about IPs in the public domain when anyone can do whatever they like with them. Expecting it to be a type of show is one thing, and judging it by the standards of one when it isn't trying to be that thing is another too (I've never seen Sherlock and am just speaking about the idea behind the convo).

But what's wrong with it being about Sherlock and John? Do you think there's some sort of sanctity to IPs and the genre they started in? That's not like an accusatory question, I'm honestly interested, it's an interesting topic.

Hating something is a holistic experience. Not everyone can articulate what went wrong, because most try to focus more on separate elements and try to find the weakest link.

So, what it should be is not a very insightful criticism, but it doesn't change that what it is sucks.

"You hate it because it doersn't match your imagination" is a weak defence, if what I imagined is the episode that makes sense and doesn't suck and end result sucks.

Moff in particular had mastered the art of not delivering on anything and act like he's some kind of master of subversion, while any idiot could do it and most idiots do.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it being about Sherlock and John but wouldn't it make sense in some form that a series about the IRL world's most well-known detective actually focus on crimes and murder mysteries? I'm fine with the approach being a 60/40 split for character/plot and mystery but anything else below that IMO is silly.

Time and the Rani and Twin Dilemma are more retarded than anything in new Who

What did she mean by this?

I dislike a tonne of Film Crit Hulk but he has a good phrase for how people will lock onto something obvious, sometimes superficial, but whatever's tangible to criticise something even though their grievances go beyond it - "tangible details". "The writing in Capaldi's series is bad" is so vague it's basically meaningless, but it's someone articulating how they feel in the easiest way I guess. I suppose bemoaning something not doing what you might have preferred can be a similar way of kind of skirting around the specific issues one has with something that are more abstract and difficult to vocalise.

It might just be different strokes for different folks, but I just don't see what's wrong with changing an IP's genre. All the old Sherlock adaptations, and even the original stories, are still right there. If people think every version, forever, needs to stick to a certain ratio of detectiveness, that's understandable, but a lot of people (and maybe more relevantly: a lot of writers) don't think that way.

What did you think of Moff's Sherlock Series 4 episode, The Lying Detective? Thought it was kino myself, and probably the most well-directed Moff script I've ever seen. But I haven't rewatched it since it came out, must get around to that.
As for the rest of the season... yikes.

Okay thank you! I'm gonna make it into tables to put on a wiki page. Let me know what archive stuff you find.

We could also do with having some info on the Foreman sagas too.

I also think such things as Newman Who (kino) and Roblox Who should count, although I'm not sure when Newman Who was a meme here.

I've never seen an episode of Sherlock in my life kek. I've actually been putting it off specifically to help me with my Moff withdrawals I'll get now he's off Who.

Awesome. Hey, it's a free wiki, who's gonna stop you adding stuff? ;)

I've asked you to rate the best acted Doctors, now /who/, if you like, rate the most well-written ones please!

Oh fuck I had no idea you'd not seen it! That's crazy! Hope you enjoy it when you get round to it. Despite the backlash, there are some crazy highs throughout all 4 series imo.
Moffat/Gatiss Dracula when?

Surely the whole point of adapting a well known IP is to capitalize on people's preconceived notions of what it is. Luring people in with the Sherlock Holmes name and then giving them A Bromance Between Two Guys Who Happen to be Detectives is disingenuous.

True. I'm just mulling over what sagas are actually big enough to warrant a place on the timeline.

That's tricky because Doctors with a lot of content (like McGann and T Baker) get diluted because they just have so many stories, and most stories won't be top kino or worst shit, so the average gets brought down. Capal I'd say is the most consistently well-written. Troughton had a very consistent era. Honestly I'd say TV McCoy too, the last two series made up for the wonkiness at first. Wait I guess I'm answering more "well-written eras" instead of well-written Doctors, my bad. Hmm...

I have seen Chalk, if we're talking Moff shows. Pretty fun. Whole thing is on YouTube.

I guess I understand your viewpoint, it's just very different to mine, I like going into things with no preconceived notions and letting the creators take me on whatever ride they've cooked up, whatever stoked their imagination.

Well definitely Mongo!

I know it's controversial, but I can't stand The Chase and the Daleks Master Plan. They are really boring, aren't they? They aren't celestial toymaker, but they are close. Doctor running from Daleks for 6 and 12 (god) episodes respectively isn't very exciting.

Yeah, Mongo is definitely going in there. Do you know round about what month it started and what month it ended?

Not offhand, Cats and Cloister would. There were death threats towards trips back then too!

...

Most TV watchers are just not good at articulation. They have watched enough entertainment to understand story structure and what works and what doesn’t, but can’t articulate it very well. So they latch onto superficial problems because they lack the ability to really look at the deeper problems and articulate why something doesn’t work. Most people can tell you that Star Trek Discovery is terrible, but they lack the ability to articulate why and so cling to stuff like “it doesn’t visually fit with TOS” rather than saying it is a complete betrayal of Gene’s vision for the future of Star Trek and explaining in detail why.

How do we "fix" Neo and McGanon's relationship?

Mark Wahlberg your calandars folks
twitter.com/Mr_Matt_Hall/status/951107934817280001

>Actually rating the writing™
Kek, can't believe you're making me do this. Okay, based on how well-drawn their characters are and how well they're catered to their respective actors:

>Peter Capaldi
Layered and constantly evolving, with an increasing grasp on Capaldi's cadence and rhythym. Something of a masterclass in serialised characterisation desu.

>Christopher Eccleston
Extremely consistent and in a series structured in a way that allows the Doctor to experience new things. His utter jubilation in The Doctor Dances is a highlight. And of course, The Parting of the Ways, where his newfound humanity is pushed to the limit.

>William Hartnell
The way this Doctor was allowed to evolve was a thing to behold, often being asked to deliver quite profound dialogue. The fact that Hartnell sometimes struggles to deliver it only adds to this.

>Sylvester McCoy (Season 25/26)
Not unlike the way clowns are terrifying to children, the Seventh Doctor becomes a figure of underlying unease, while never losing the essence of the hero we all love. Even though the episodes are sequenced out of production order, this still comes across perfectly, with sequences like "end my life" in The Happiness Patrol being particular standouts. Not to mention grace notes from supporting characters like the echo of this scene in Battlefield later on. We don't see the Doctor in quite the same way after Remembrance of the Daleks.

>David Tennant
Moments of the Tenth Doctor's character arc progressing were too few and far between imo, but when it happened, it was something to behold. Heavy handed at times? Yes, but ultimately effective, never more so than in The Waters of Mars, the culmination of his hubris. And, for better or worse, he was so unrelentingly the Tenth Doctor right until the bitter end.

Well said.

I don't think hating The Chase is controversial, maybe hating TDMP isn't even, but TDMP is kino. Yeah it's the Daleks chasing the Doctor for 12 episodes but it's not like nothing changes or develops. Companions come and go, there are tons of settings, the episodes don't have the same tone, there's the return of the Monk. I'm watching it now and they've got four different factions running around in ancient Egypt and that's only for two episodes, it's mad.

travel back in time

What about Matt Smith and the rest that you haven't listed?

you can't fix a relationship if they never had one in the first place