What are the chances that the writers for this comic could actually write a transgender superhero character good and not just make being transgender their only character flaw?
io9.gizmodo.com
I've been intrigued by the possibility of good well-written transgender characters in comics since it feels refreshing and a change of pace yet I feel like I am bracing myself for disappointment as they would only more or less be progressive points for the comic book publishers.
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the-conservatory.wikia.com
twitter.com
I wish someone in Sup Forums had managed to get the funds, willpower, and scripts necessary to get Motion off of the ground. She had a lot of groundwork to become a good character.
Motion?
There was too much infighting over her, though.
make a good charcter, then slap transgender on top
dont make a fuss about it, its just a character trait, like what their hair color is or what their favorite flavor of ice cream
Here you go:
the-conservatory.wikia.com
I know, but there was a lot of meat on her bones as a result. Enough to make her cross the threshold from Sup Forums creation status of flight o' fancy/cool design to a narrative being you could get several stories out of. The feuds got intense, but there was real nuance and potential there.
I mean, they could have done a better job than whatever everyone else in the industry has been doing lately.
dang thats a nice art style
/23/16 12:45pm
didn't this comic already come out??
>well-written
>transgender
Pick one.
Cornell did a bang up job with Sir Ystin.
She wasn't in Seven Soldiers. She wanted the D pretty badly there and it ended with her taking up a civilian identity as a British schoolgirl.
huh. might be cool. props for her superpowers having nothing to do with her beings trans in any way shape or form. most writers would make it something to do with sex or disguises.
I hope they manage to make the gravity powers visually interesting.
literally all any faggot needs to do is write a perfectly normal character and say theyre transgender off to the side like fuck its like people thinking a gay character needs to constantly talk about how gay they are and think that makes a good character or some shit
idgi
the problem with writing trans characters is that the issue is so heavily politicised you can't do it seriously in comics.
The reality is that trans people often have pretty serious issues with identity and a comic exploring that in a Superhero could be really cool because you have a built in identity crisis with the secret identity aspect already. Unfortunately what the comics establishment wants right now is less of a real trans character and more of a figurehead to point to so you have to make your character
a) functional in every way
b) a good example of how transitioning is a 'perfect solution'
c) passable because ugly characters don't sell
I know it's a cancer site but I actually felt this list gets it mostly right except for 2) and if you consider that 10) specifically refers to a *superhero* character
themarysue.com/modern-trans-superhero/
It's asking for this basically . Don't make trans the whole of it and don't use all the stereotypes.
This, I feel like we'll never have a well-written realistically portrayed trans character. ;_;
Alters is fucking boring, the main character is drawn like a man and then drawn as woman when it's time to fight crime, there's no real transition
the main character has like a zillion identical looking brothers and a fat mom and spent 85% percent of issue one whining about going to his brother's baseball/soccer game, it's all done in that very hacky trapped in the closet with my conservative midwest family
The covers are great tho Stillfreeze is the man .
I feel like it's not something that should be ignored either. Since that isn't really how things are in real life. It's what most people who legitimately experience gender dysphoria wish things were like, but sooner or later shit comes up. So just making a character and then saying they are transgender still feels unrealistic.
I guess I'm just saying find a balance of when to make note of this character trait and when not to.
Cornell wrote her as a trans dude during his Demon Knights run and hooked her up with a hot Amazon warrior. It was pretty neat since her transness did figure into her story without being preachy or too heavy handed. Of course, this was all during New 52 so it's probably irrelevant now.
Okay look this comic is going to blow, we all know it, but it's also necessary. For trans superheroes to become a thing where they can be like, developed and have interesting arcs, or for this fad to go away (depending on your views) we need to have this terrible cringey depiction of a perfect untouchable god-woman who is also trans and brings this up constantly.
This is how every minority superhero is and you know it. You gotta do the perfect mary sue who happens to be [insert thing here] before you can do the flawed, interesting character.
being trans is not like being gay, it's stupid statements like this that drive the whole shit show
being transgender is literally a mental 'illness' it's a problem in the brain. I'm not saying this to be mean or troll or anything the point is to establish that it's a far deeper issue than 'just' whether you like dudes or not. You can't write a trans character that doesn't obsess about being trans because that's what a lot trans people (especially early in transition) are like, in the same way that you can't write a character with depression without focusing the comic around that depression because that's what depression is like.
THAT SAID, this also doesn't mean the character or the story should be focused around shit like LGBT rights because that's not the point either, it should be about the personal struggle of the character because that's the golden rule of drama.
If your trans character starts every conversation with "I'm trans btw xD, stop oppressing me shitlords" that's dumb and tumblr esque. But vice versa your trans character shouldn't be presented as "being trans is easy and nothing goes wrong and it's all sunshine and rainbows, do not worry fellow transpeople out in the world you are beautiful the way you are, in fact it's so easy that being transgender is just a footnote in my identity." That second one might be true in like 50-100 years but it's certainly not true now.
There's a middle ground here where your character can be unconcerned about trans issues all the time and instead be concerned about their OWN issues. Instead of some overarching nebulous "lgbt rights" it should be "I can't eat on these hormones" or "when am I gonna grow tits?" or "should I wear boy clothes or girl clothes?" etc.
an exploration of what it really means to have a deeply personal incongruity, not an exploration of whether modern society has LGBT equality.
Now I want to try and make more comics for this character although I am a terrible writer and drawer. ;_;
I guess I could make a separate forum where I could recruit a band of artists and writers to develop a new series of comics. I'd moderate things to ensure there is no infighting or arguments.
fuck io9, and fuck OP for posting a worthless link to PR fluff for a comic that won't be out for another thee months.
>Chalice is the star of a new series called Alters from Paul Jenkins, Leila Leiz, and Tamra Bonvillain (a transgender woman herself),with covers by Black Panther artist Brian Stelfreeze. Alters is set in a world where humanity is confronted with the emergence of a mutant section of the population, dubbed “Alterations,” that develops superpowers.
>Chalice, undergoing transition from male to female, discovers that she is an “Alter” with the power to manipulate gravity—leading to her double-double life, where she is not yet “out” as either transgender or a superpowered being, and can only present as female when in her superhero costume and fighting crime. The series will also feature other heroes, but Chalice will be its primary protagonist.
>It’s an intriguing idea—one writer Jenkins picked up on from a fan while brainstorming ideas for the comic—and a welcome move for a larger variety of LGBTQ representation in superhero comics (which often tend to stick to the Lesbian or Gay side of the spectrum, moreso than bisexual or transgender lead characters). Alters is set to begin this September.
Hey, OP. You had a trans/queer/wtf character in a big two book that was well written, a main character in an ensemble cast, in Demon Knights.
AND NOBODY FUCKING BOUGHT IT.
What was the name of that character?
that link is a year old, Alters already came out and finished or the publisher went under, there hasn't been anything new from Aftershock in over a year.
>This is how every minority superhero is and you know it
Northstar was a terrorist and an asshole.
Isn't this how Wonder Woman spent most of her early days?
the character is called Chalice the book is called Alters.
The article doesn't say ignore it, it pretty much says exactly what you are. I said "don't make it the whole of it" someone will probably make a shitty joke about surgery now
That is related to Demon Knights?
>which often tend to stick to the Lesbian or Gay side of the spectrum, moreso than bisexual or transgender lead characters
Does anyone ever focus on bisexuals? I've always had the impression that nobody really gives a fuck about them, aside from the occasional fag who hates them because they can pass as normal.
You're crazy, aftershock stuff comes out almost weekly and Alters is on the first trade
>one writer Jenkins picked up on from a fan while brainstorming ideas for the comic
lol, I bet the fan is DELIGHTED
Actually, summed up what I was trying to explain perfectly.
But why do I get the feeling that should such a realistic well rounded well-written character be picked apart by fucking feminists and sjws despite it actually being positive toward issues faced by trans individuals?
no it's an original character from a self contained book.
The character from Demon Knights was Shining Knight aka Sir Ystin.
There are a lot of bisexual (women) characters in comics.
ConJob's bisexuality has been more explicit of late.
yeah, there's a pretty obscure book you've probably never heard of called X-Men which features a few bisexual women
>Unfortunately what the comics establishment wants right now is less of a real trans character and more of a figurehead to point to so you have to make your character
I would take it one step beyond. The trans community is absolutely fucking nuts in their societal expectations, and I'm not talking about the gender dysphoria.
It's trainwreck after trainwreck of stupid drama. The
most hilarious I can think of are that Batgirl Dagger Type thing, where the transfags lost their shit about a cross dressing diva, and the carnival of bullshit that is the Drawn and Quarterly kerfuffle from a day or two ago, where they on their blog publically canceled an author's book and practically called him a shitlord for the most trivial social media garbage..
That list only serves to document shit that already is reasonably common, plus some basic common writing sense. If that list is actually useful to anyone, they're probably an ignorant moron that's beyond help. But it's a lot better than I was expecting.
When it drives the narrative. When it looks cool. When it makes logical sense.
The Biscum meme is real.
Pro whiners call it "bi erasure".
Damn it, I want to see more of Motion. She looks like she could be a legitimate character from one of the two main companies.
buddy you completely missed half of what i was conveying in my post while making the assumption i cant differentiate gay and trans just because i said i hated 1 dimensional portrayals of a character being harolded as well written
also trans is a shitty term that doesnt explain what trans is at all because you have varying forms of "trans" bullshit that arise in people. thats why you have truscum, trenders, and the whole "nonbinary" crowd constantly at odds and turning every place they bump into each other a cesspool of misery. its completely realistic to have a character exist and just tack on them being trans as a footnote, especially if they are post transition and its a one off story where them being trans doesnt matter worth a damn just like its realistic to have a whiny tumblr bitch be a protagonist for a mecha anime that wont shut up about being trans because that would basically be a standard protag for a story like that anyway, just replace trans with being too weak or too scared to fight giant robots while piloting a giant robot
Why does she have two black circles on her tits?
make a script inspring enough to make artists want to do it, or buy some artwork.
>especially if they are post transition and its a one off story where them being trans doesnt matter worth a damn
Uhh, that's not entirely true, bud.
> thats why you have truscum, trenders, and the whole "nonbinary" crowd constantly at odds and turning every place they bump into each other a cesspool of misery
Who the fuck gives a shit about them? We're making a transgender character. I'll give the nonbinary folk a pass since I have a few hypotheses about them, but the trenders and truscum ain't shit.
I'm a terrible writer though and honestly, I haven't had any experience with being transgender. If anything, I wouldn't mind just being a moderator of a team of writers and artists to ensure arguments do not ensue and we can actually create an awesome character.
>all these muggas forgetting about Mantra
Did you have that pic ready or did you specifically go look it up from the TMS list?
If I wanted to help with such projects, would me actually being transgender put me at a disadvantage?
>Uhh, that's not entirely true, bud.
it is, trans people like that have periods of their life worth telling a story about where them being trans plays absolutely no part at all, therefore a one off story about an event that happened in a fictional trans persons life where them being trans didnt matter worth a damn is entirely realistic and is what i would personally want out of a "well written" trans person
theres varying ways you can do a "well written" trans person but for the sake of the context of this thread, one where them being trans isnt the main focus is what would probably satisfy a good amount of people in execution. other ones that make use of them being trans during the whole slice of life aspects in super hero comics would be a good follow up for a younger hero
>Who the fuck gives a shit about them? We're making a transgender character. I'll give the nonbinary folk a pass since I have a few hypotheses about them, but the trenders and truscum ain't shit.
because nonbinary people, truscum, and trenders all fall under the term transgender as it exists now because 99.9% of the time truscum are medically trans people that think nonbinarys and trenders are full of shit
Wait a second. Why the FUCK would the OP post a link to PR fluff from a fucking year ago instead of the comic? Did you have any children that lived?
Your theoretical moderating efforts are meaningless. A creator has to be in the drivers seat.
>I could recruit a band of artists and writers to develop a new series of comics. I'd moderate things to ensure there is no infighting or arguments.
That was actually the main source of the fighting. One dude kept trying to pump Sup Forums for free art/writing/ideas and contributed nothing but criticism while trying to act like it was his personal project. Shit got ugly.
Shouldn't that put you at an advantage?
That's because you're using trans as an transient instead of as a real, defined word.
The reason that the online trans community is a shitshow right now is precisely because a bunch of people who would not be categorised as traditionally 'trans' are attempting to claim trans as a label to refer to themselves when in all honesty they should really be their own unique thing. There's really no connection between a dude who thinks he's a girl (or a girl who thinks she's a dude) and a dude who is a dude sometimes and a girl other times and sometimes is neither or else some nebulous point between.
There's a concrete classification for people who believe they are the opposite gender from what they were born as - trans. Maybe there's an objection to trans as a label for them but in that case they need their own new word, not to have everyone else crowd into that word. Like it or not right now, the medical definition of trans is what it is.
you're attempting to reframe the debate basically. What I'm saying is based on the way the word trans is used in wider society right now while what you're saying is based on the way tumblr/social media uses it which are not the same thing.
If you want to talk about the latter we can but you should have said so earlier because I was speaking to the later.
dont fall for the industry meme just contribute
*former
fucked that up
Mantra is about a man who woke in a woman's body and had to assume her life.
it's a different type of animal
I think that user means the external conflicts that may arise. While true that trans people who pass more or less go on to lead normal lives there may still come up an issue where them being trans comes out. I get what you're saying though. I'm just saying if you want to get very in detail about this character's life you'd have to address some internal and external conflicts through important turning points such as beginning hormone therapy and perhaps even changing documents. Sooner or later you would have to show these moments which may interfere with the plot.
Industry meme?
I would suspect that it's so that the character doesn't end up becoming that user's self-insert.
It'd defeat the purpose of being a snowflake comic
Just like Heathen wouldn't be Heathen without GAY STRONG WOMEN
while online, i just make the assumption that when someone is talking about anything that uses the word trans, theyre using the shitty social media definition for it since that seems to be the case.... ALL the time with everyone i know and people i dont know these days. i know i probably shouldnt on a place like Sup Forums, but theres enough people on here that utilize the word the same it makes these conversations difficult.
i feel like we need better descriptors since trans has been as bastardized as retard and trigger and i feel fucking awful for people who have to go through the whole medical process just to function being associated with those mongs.
but anyway sorry for the mix up.
But trans people have a unique perspective that has a lot of storytelling potential.
Trannies live difficult lives filled with both internal and external strife. Most will probably never feel happy with themselves and will not in this lifetime be truly accepted socially. They're currently stuck on the far side of alternative culture.
What causes them to be this way is still not understood and there's no consensus on how it should be approached.
I think there's a lot of potential for storytelling with this kind of character.
no worries lad
Your gender, whether fucked up or not has no bearing on your ability to write or create art.
It also has no bearing on your ability to commission such works. That's mostly a function of money.
And comics has more high profile transexuals than almost any other industry. There are famous, well paid, at least in comics terms pros.
I'm not sure what other issue there could be.
The chaos seems a natural conclusion of a gender identity is 100 percent self defined, which is the direction we're heading.
I'm curious. I'm trying to think of how Manta's gender identity could be described as anything different than trans? Different beast as in not necessarily that relateable to existing transfags, but is it really a separate thing?
what im saying is not to get that much in depth in a characters history but go ahead and drop obvious nudges to them being trans, but dont make it a major part of the story
to start with
you can easily write a trans character by writing them as you would any other asshole, then once youre finished with the initial story, if theres no major conflicts with adding on the trait that theyre trans, then doing so.
once you have the initial story out, you can flesh out the character more and come back and write a different story from that same characters life that goes into more detail about their past and the hang ups over things like school staff discriminating against the character for insisting being called a name other than what they were signed up under or the woes of being in sports that gender segregate and what not
Honestly, I think the idea of identity has to be the common ground
Have the character dabbling in a realm of magic where in that realm, they can choose their physical manifestion and it feels safe in a way.
The turning point is that the magic world starts to bleed into the reality, what becomes of the fantasy manifestation, is it just that or is it a real part of the character?
As character comes to terms, they must adapt to the situation and it'll test their resolve as a hero as well as their own self.
>Mantra is about a man who woke in a woman's body and had to assume her life.
>it's a different type of animal
The thing is, the overarcing plot of the series was about Lukasz (the original male) slowly coming to terms with and embracing his new form as a female. It was a transitioning story, but a pretty offbeat one as it was about a guy spiritually transitioning into a woman.
I mean it was hardly a subtle or amazing story, but it was pretty interesting when coupled with the supernatural superhero plot it was built into.
Mantra is more of a bodysnatcher who eventually gets overwhelmed with physiology of being a woman. it's as mature as a TG analog you're going to get from a 90's bad girl comic book.
I think at the heart of most realistic transitions there's a choice to be male or female, in Mantra there's never a choice, he was forced out of his body by an evil sorcerer and any opportunity to change back is presented as a selfish decision.
Malibu was great, fuck Marvel.
Agreed
Also mantra had one of the nicest designed costumes I've seen in a while. It's so visually striking with how the different bits contrast and has a great color scheme.
I dunno...I really enjoyed Alters. At the end of the day it's a superhero book. The Trans stuff isn't the driving force of the book and it even has a easily hatable douchey hipster bad guy. My copy of the trade came yesterday. Aftershock puts out some good books
The orange part of her costume is supposed to look like an M.
There's an artist who pops up every so often in Sup Forums creations thread who has a good grasp on the character and a direction in mind for the story. It hurts to know we may have the perfect creator for Motion and still nothing is coming from it.
>went to a fertility clinic
>misgendered me
wait...
what?
first off, the doctor doesn't misgender shit, ESPECIALLY at a fertility clinic
Either you're male or female, that is kind of fucking important before you go in, and the doctor literally has you fill out forms that say JUST THAT before he or she even sees you.
Secondly, which one was there for fertility options?
As someone who's been to a fertility clinic... you don't get checked out as a couple. It's two separate visits.
bisexuals are boring because they're basically straight + gay (from a writing standpoint)
they don't have the same concerns that gay people have (like realizing their orientation means never having a natural child with your lover, or until recently knowing you can't get married) because half of their relationships are traditional ones.
Also, few readers find bisexuals compelling, to most it feels like it's a copout to avoid writing a fully gay character.
I have a couple random issues of that, never felt it was heavy handed or preachy.
It could be written in 15 years or so when this whole Extremist social activism trend dies down and people stop writing characters to appeal to said activism groups.
the problem with misgendering in a clinic is by not "correctly gendering", the doctor is completely ignoring your specific medical needs and is likely not going to give you the proper treatment should anything arise. an mtf needs treatment more like a bio female because treatments for males would likely consist of doses that are too high for any potential medications and ignoring signs and symptoms only prevalent in females when the womans undergoing some sort of ailment
the thing people need to realize when it comes to going to clinics when youre undergoing hrt is outside of your reproductive organs, assuming that before hrt your body was within what was healthy for a normal man/woman including fertility, your body no longer responds to things as they would have prior, and you have other needs that need to be addressed because your body no longer fits into the neat little categories of male or female medically. and before anyone breaks out the "see then youre fucking up your body" or "yeah because its unnatural" bullshit, this is also an issue for anyone who was born intersex and can in fact be an issue for men with low t and women with high t
there needs to be a third option to cover the various sexual complications that can a person can experience. theyre a lot more common than anyone expects and its pretty often youll meet a doctor thats run into various people who fit the bill who were too uncomfortable treating them or turned them away because they didnt know how to handle any deviation from how we categorize male and female medically
as far as the actual panel is concerned i have no fucking idea im sure the person didnt do the research
Are you faggots unironically giving credibility to the idea of writing a comic about a tranny or is this just a joke?
hey man, if something exists, theres a market for it that will put serious consideration into how to make it something worthwhile
Yes.
The world is turning, user, and it's leaving you behind.
Let's go back when comics didn't obey trends
I have to say, there's just the right amount of masculinity here. She looks believably passable, but not enough to feel like it's being swept under the rug.
I think you are confused
regular clinic =/= fertility clinic
there is literally no circumstance that a fertility clinic would treat a transgender person differently. For one, if they are a male presenting as female and going to a fertility clinic, it would be because they are having problems being fertile. Generally speaking, transitioning has infertility as a side effect. Especially with HRT. And you don't go to a fertility clinic 99% of the time without your regular physician referring you.
Also, HRT doesn't make a persons body like the opposite sex, medically. It basically puts it in a new category all together.
Is it important for a doctor to know if you're transitioning with hormones? Absolutely. Will they ever treat (as in, medically) you as the sex you are transitioning to? No. That would be harmful.
Nah, the complete lack of a chin throws it off.
Add a bit of boxiness there and they're set.
>Pretending this fad won't end within 2 or 3 years
I feel bad for you user.
Capitalism is proving that these trends have no place in the comic market considering their low sales.
yeah i totally got confused, for some reason i was thinking something like planned parenthood which does a lot more than fertility stuff despite its name. thats what i get for posting on Sup Forums so early in the morning, i guess.
and in summary i was basically saying you cant treat someone transitioning as if they were their bio sex because hormones alter a lot of the body to actually be more of the opposite sex. the whole muscle mass, where fat is stored and how much your body hangs on to it, how your hair grows in, and even how you respond to sexual stimulus. its not safe to be treated as 100% male or 100% female but its a complicated process all around that a doctor that refuses to acknowlege is probably going to make no effort to treat you according to your bodys needs
essentially i was agreeing with you but now i really understand the confusion regarding the original panel in question
I'm not sure if it's the same where you are, but it's completely unthinkable for a doc to misgender like that in a fertlity clinic in America. They're big money cash patients, storing up seeds so they can have biological children post transition.
>an mtf needs treatment more like a bio female because treatments for males would likely consist of doses that are too high for any potential medications and ignoring signs and symptoms only prevalent in females when the womans undergoing some sort of ailment
In a fertility clinic? Did someone put shrooms on your pizza?
>there needs to be a third option to cover the various sexual complications that can a person can experience.
Look. We're talking about a tiny population, that doesn't get included in drug trials, frequently comes with hormonal problems beyond HRT, are frequently given advice to lie to their medical professionals because they're shitlord gatekeepers like they said at the p-flag meeting, and have a prevalence of illegal IV drug use and suicide higher than active duty combat veterans. Conservatism, and by that I mean medically speaking, is generally very warranted in this case.
I expect you were saying the same thing about gay characters 2-3 years ago.
I'd go further. Essentially its the same problem as a disabled superhero etc.
Everyone loves Oracle. however, everyone also kept pointing out, Batman broke his back 3 times, damian twice?, Batwoman once, etc. And that was just the batfamily. Cyborg, metallo, and 10000 other cybernetic solutions to a broken back.. then, Magic, Zatanna, etc..
How do you write a Transgender character in DC comics without addressing the fact, Zatanna has used her magic to change the sex/gender of 3 separate people already?
the solution to the characters problem exists.
So then, you are left with the magic transgender. Which again has been done a good number of times already.
From a trans point of view. pretty ok with that honestly. Wish fulfillment sure. But, its what every trans wants really. Hormones/surgery is just the best solution to what is impossible in real life. But you know what, so is flying, etc.
I don't want a comic that is about how shitty hormones are. or about how society treats trans.
>How do you write a Transgender character in DC comics
Well, there's the rub. Don't do it in an established universe where it's rendered completely trivial.
regarding your last point: well yeah, its a relatively small part of the population, but in a world population of 7billion people even 1% of that is a pretty substantial about of people numerically and having the option to mark off that you dont meet the medical standards of male or female would make it easier for doctors and researchers to know theres going to be some discrepancies from standard treatment
>planned parenthood which does a lot more than fertility stuff despite its name.
actually, planned parenthood doesn't do any fertility stuff.
Planned parenthood primarily does referrals to other doctors (cancer screenings, bloodwork, etc), abortions, and a form of counseling
You have to go to a specific fertility clinic or a hospital for treatments.
Most people who work at planned parenthood aren't actually doctors, that's why they can't do things doctors can.
damn im learning all kinds of new shit today
>From a trans point of view. pretty ok with that honestly. Wish fulfillment sure. But, its what every trans wants really. Hormones/surgery is just the best solution to what is impossible in real life. But you know what, so is flying, etc.
that's actually really interesting user
PP started as a eugenics program to keep racial minorities from increasing.
Even today, the prevalence of PP offices in black neighborhoods compared to any other is like 5-1, and a black woman is twice as likely as a white woman to have an abortion at planned parenthood.
Abortion doctors also don't have to have the same medical standing as obstetricians or gynecologists (the doctors who deliver babies) which is why the doctors that ARE there cannot fulfill certain medical tasks.
You go to PP to avoid having a child, or to get rid of it once you conceive. Most people who support PP have never been to one.
>But, its what every trans wants really
I dunno, I have 2 trans friends
one is ftm, and basically just hated the concept that a female is vulnerable. the transition became a way for them to feel less endangered.
the other one I know transitioned, full on surgery, mtf. Years later, completely regrets the decision, as they realized they didn't truly hate their gender, they hated the concept of gender. Now they're stuck with a gaping wound that they have to pretend is anything like a natural vagina, but since they've had sex with women before, they know isn't. It's kind of a torture, and even magic turning them 100% female wouldn't be enough to deal with the fact that they would just be trading one set of gender expectations for another.
im gonna walk away from this properly researching it myself but everything youre saying makes a scary amount of sense and its baffling how skeevy this whole set up is despite the fact i support the choice of abortion because id rather something not have to experience life than be born from someone who obviously doesnt feel ready or doesnt want the kid and will likely give them a miserable life as a result
>Not have to experience life
You realize their already alive right?
You're talking about not experiencing pain, or strife, which is part of the human condition.
>You realize their already alive right?
Well that's the crux of the debate, isn't it?