Suspension of disbelief and new antagonists

>Writer makes new villain
>Villain has some sort of stupid gimmick like being able to taste sound
>Writer makes them an enemy to a hero who has been patrolling the world for decades and has saved it a few times
>Villain honestly thinks he has a chance against the hero

How can writers make villains for well established heroes? Their resumes would have to be as long as the heroes yet we always have some guy whose been through a freak lab accident thinking they can tango with Batman or Spider-Man. Not to mention countless street thugs who think they'll be the one who finally takes out Bats or Spidey.

Batman's nemesis is some faggot albino who's entire gimmick is "LOOK HOW CUHRAZY I AM!1!".

A random dude with a gun is a major threat comparatively.

Ulysses and Blanche are pretty decent new villains for Supes. They have pretty standard movesets and no fancy motivations.
As for regular thugs, inflated ego is a pretty common thing in real life and comics alike. Every other hood bangers think they can be the next Larry Hoover or Pablo Escobar, especially the dumb ones, so it's no surprise if someone think he can take on Batman or Spider-Man

Who do you think makes all the supervillain lairs?

It's part of the problem with the format of cape comics in general. Making a good villain isn't about their power-level, it's about making someone who can clash with the hero(es) in a meaningful way, whether that be on a thematic level or as a character foil. When a character has been around for a while and you're working on an ongoing, it becomes harder to introduce that.

It's why, honestly, I think the big two comic companies should be focusing on writing trade paperbacks instead of floppies now. Floppies aren't a good format for long-form storytelling.

Due to shifting continuity super heroes have never actually been doing their job for that long.

>Not to mention countless street thugs who think they'll be the one who finally takes out Bats or Spidey.
Bendis is especially bad at this. Every time he does a street book, he has a wannabe-kingpin character brag about how he's going to do things "differently" and how he's totally gonna get rid of those pesky superheroes. He's doing it yet again with Diamondback in Defenders.

I feel like the best way to go when you have to create new villains is either try to make it so that these villains can clash with the heroes in a new and meaningful way that other villains can't (which is what they tried to do with Hush), or make villains with specific quirks that other villains can't have and let them exist.

Pyg, for example, is a fairly recent character who works on a distinct gimmick, has a place in the narrative that can't be occupied by Joker or someone else, and, while not being a huge threat to Batman, he is still an effective villain.

I'm not saying every villain needs to be like Pyg, fuck no. I'm arguing that Pyg is a good example of Batman villain who managed to carve his own place in the Rogues gallery despite being fairly recent and not being a physical threat or a "mysterious figure from the past" (which is what they tried to do with Hush).

Do you think Batman made her suck his dick after he handcuffed her?

>How can writers make villains for well established heroes?
Simply put, you can't.

Making a good, new villain for a character that's been around for 40, 50, 60 years that's interesting, compelling, and also legitimately threatening to the hero is almost impossible and you can probably count the number of times its been done successfully on one hand.

The real problem is a lack of new, original protagonists in new, original universes - everything DC and Marvel put out always has to be connected to their existing continuities, so you always just see the same heroes and villains over and over and over, whereas something like Invincible is full of new and interesting heroes, villains, and settings (and is unfortunately ending in like 7-8 months).

The trouble is it takes a lot of time and effort to create new IPs and the big two can't be fucking bothered because it's easier to just reprint the same shit every year and then occasionally blow it up and do a reboot.

Invincible had some pretty memorable villains like the clone twins and the brain guy.

The best way is to introduce them in a clean slate media like a cartoon or stand-alone comic, where they don't have to fight for attention with 40 years of established characters.

Question, why did the Batman Beyond villains work out so well?

I mean sure, you got the off weirdo that was about as memorable as a wet tissue in your pocket.

But Inque, Shriek, Blight, Stalker, and Curare really came into their own against a much different Dark Knight.

Is that what it is? That Terry's Batman was so different it allowed new villains to get a Bat adjacent spotlight?

Huh?

Mad Stan?

Mad Stan isn't popular because of Batman, it's just Henry Rollins using explosives, that'd be hilarious anywhere.

Weren't most of them one-off villains so we didn't have to see them done to death?

They had original powers and likable personalities.

Marvel and DC having their giant shared universes would be fine if things in those continuities actually changed and developed over time... the problem is they don't because it's easier to keep bringing back the same characters, villains, and plot threads instead of actually letting things change.


Because the universe of Batman Beyond was separated enough from the rest of the DCAU that it could really be its own thing. Batman's continuity is there in the background, but it's distant and faded and so when you get something like a Superman cameo or Mr Freeze coming back, it feels less like "Batman... IN THE FUTURE" and more like a crossover between characters from two completely different universes.

i think all the ones user listed had 2-3 appearances at least but yeah essentially.

I would also nominate Wally Watt and his Golem.

Villains are like music.
Older stuff you only hear about the successes, so it makes you think all the new stuff that seems to come and go will never meet those standards.
But while you're hearing the greatest hits of the 70s, you're not realizing the thousands of songs that aren't played anymore cause, just like now, they went through the same hit and miss we got today.

Some villains will make it big, some will be left in obscurity or left as one offs.

Blight was basically Doctor Phosphoras so I'd call him a reimagining of an old villain (like they did for Mr Freeze).

That's an interesting way of putting it.

Although one could also argue that comics (as well as music) just never reached the same peak again.

I mean, my original post was going to be asking people to list newer villains that they think are comparable to older ones and I was going to use an analogy like 'if villains like the Joker or Green Goblin are the Beatles and Queens of their day, who do you guys think are the____' and I had to stop myself because I genuinely couldn't think of a comparably good band that's come on the scene in the last decade or so. I mean, the most recent that comes to mind would be like Radiohead or something and even they've active since the late 80s/early 90s.


... fuck I feel old.

Yeah let's avoid the musical comparison being that 1to1 and instead post recent villains you don't want to fall to obscurity or are sadly ending up as one offs.

Like Anguish. Superman villain of a teen runaway from a broken home with intangibility powers to the extreme that she can also make herself invisible or super dense and very powerful.

RoadRunner.
A big time carjacker who also replaced his legs with specially made ones for quick evasion.

Seems pretty fucking lame

And power-wise she's like a gimped Martian Manhunter

>meep meep, sucker
... seriously?

Rick Remender's Final Horsemen were pretty cool. Pity he killed them all.

God Killers. Mysterious tech wearing powerhouses on the personal crusade of killing off beings who pass themselves off as deities.
I don't remember their outfits looking this lame, though. Hmm

I can't even tell whats going on in this page or who is who

She's uh, pretty cute.

I think that is a big problem. Pyg works cause he has a original gimmick. Theres not too much to him but you can get some good stories with his set up and he's generally entertaining. I can see him sticking around for a while.

The problem is that writer's don't want to make the next Pyg, Firefly or Penguin. They want to make the next Joker. But the execution is always flawed. Joker started off as just "the clown criminal" and grew from there. All these new writers want to start off with a villain that has the weight of the Joker with none of the effort put in to make them that.

Yeah lots of villains seem to have their load blown first appearance, and either never appear again or are left to become nobodies.
Like The Architect, villain of Gates of Gotham. Or Great White Shark from Arkham Living Hell.

I'd argue they didn't work that well. I remember the Joker gang and the glowing skeleton dude but the rest seemed really weak.

I applaud them for trying to make an original cast of Rouges for Terry, which is more than can be said for most characters taking up a new mantle, but they never struck as iconic as the OG Batman villains. I blame the backstories, powers, and designs personally. I mean, just look at your pic, screams "early 2000 toy for boys, batteries not included"

Nah, they made her way too sympathetic to stick around. Thats another problem, especially with female villains. If you want them to last, they have to be irredeemable.
Not to say you cant feel bad for them, take Mr. Freeze, but you're not gonna read about a poor little teen girl who's just taken the wrong path but can get her life back on track, honest, for 50 years.

This.
I think about Hush, Court of Owls or even "The Family" from Spider-man.
They're all "The most important characters for years" and "They've been pulling all the strings and you didn't even know it!"
Like, you can't just tell me they're a big deal and expect me to buy into it in less than a year's time. Build them up.

Bane was designed to be Batman's next big threat, and that's exactly what he became. Only he didnt lurk around for a month or so in the shadows and then have a half a year arc about how he's the most important villain ever with these important ties to Batman's past. They put the effort in and actually showed us why he was a big deal.

I dig villains that carve out a niche for themselves like that. Can't rob banks or fight capes yourself? Get rich by making stuff for other bad guys instead, or train hired goons with the skills you know (is there a DC equivalent of Taskmaster?).

>The problem is that writer's don't want to make the next Pyg, Firefly or Penguin
You putting Penguin next to more minor villains like Pyg and Firefly just reminded me of how low in relevance the character has sunk to these days.
Writers shouldn't want to make the next Penguin. They should just use Penguin to begin with.

But yes, I agree. It's like every writer these days wants to make the next Joker, resorting to cheap bullshit like the new character suddenly killing someone important or having a backstory stating he was there all along. Or they just shove Joker in everything, even though Joker hasn't been interesting in years, and he hogs spotlight even in stories that would benefit much better from using other villains. And worse, whenever they use a different character, they feel the need to "Jokerise" that character to reduce his personality for shock value (like Riddler)

It does make the few times Penguin be the big baddy all the sweeter, though.
Like how he stole the show the few issues he was in Batman Eternal.

Yeah, that was so great. Penguin was refreshingly brutal and active in that series.
They even put him in that disgusting Batman Returns one-sie for his encounter with Falcone.

And I concede that Penguin's more rare appearences these days prevent him from having his character be overused and driven into the ground like they do with Joker.
I just wish he was active a little more often. It gets tiresome watching him always appear in cameos to be beaten up by Batman for information.

And I'd argue that you're wrong. Plenty of people remember the Beyond villains fondly. They were effective because Bruce Timm and the other creatives decided to make original non-legacy villains that evoked the futuristic setting and the issues that affected its society. Most of them were connected to industrial espionage/sabotage which fit really well with a future filled with high tech high rises and big leaps in consumerist/capitalist culture. The designs were sleek yet still well-defined and individualized.

Because they were all Spidey villains

Deadpool is Batman nemesis?

Penguin is a great character, when you want to transfer the stories from psychos to the traditional crime organizations for Batman to fight. Penguin is an old-school mobster, as well as a mentally ill psychotic. Having him pop up can be used to transfer the style of villains, and adjust the readers to the change.

Even Blight?

He was a great menacing villain, being too radioactive for Terry to even approach, let alone fight effectively, but he was foiled by his own anger and control issues. I would have loved for him to return, it would have been fun seeing him evolve.

I like Penguin being short but hes pretty much a midget on this one, he was supposed to be a 5'3 very large guy.

Bad posture and crouching.

Why is he wearing that thing ?
Wouldn't it make sense to at least have him wear a black coat on top or something ? He looks nothing like a penguin

Deadpool isn't an albino, he's actually pretty brownish-red from all the tumors and scar tissue.

>Penguin is an old-school mobster, as well as a mentally ill psychotic.
Penguin is not mentally ill. At least, not in the way the others rogues are. That's kind of a big thing when it comes to Oswald, and one of the things that sets him apart from the other rogues. Not being insane doesn't make him any less brutal or unstable. In fact, it arguably makes him worse because he's fully conscious of what he's doing to people and the things that are happening to him, he can't turn a blind eye to the reality he lives in, which, combined with his backstory, makes him paranoid and untrusting of people (a great quality for a criminal genius but a terrible thing for someone who wants acceptance and respectability).
>transfer the stories from psychos to the traditional crime organizations for Batman to fight
Not just for that, Penguin is also great for when you want to have Batman fight an enemy who operates outside of his range as a vigilante, someone who is seemingly within the law and can't just be beaten up and thrown into a lunatic asylum.

It's probably due to his posture and his crouching, plus perspective.
He looks more normal in other scenes in the comic.

Burton made weird choices for adapting the character in Batman Returns. This was one of them.
It was made to look like he was wearing the clothes he was discarded in as a baby, like they clinged to him. It was supposed to make him look like a giant monstrous baby throwing a tantrum and using oversized toys to get back at the world which rejected him, which is pretty much how Burton caracterized Oswald.