Why are modern animators so lazy even though they get paid more compared to the other days?

Why are modern animators so lazy even though they get paid more compared to the other days?

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because they found out you retards will keep watching and they'll make just as much if not more money with less effort

You cannot make people do more work than they need to do.

Because Groening always hated how over animated that used to be.

They are paid more, so the studios hire fewer animators and spread them thinner.

I'm sure today's animators would love to do old-school animation if they had the budget. Compare the animation of your average cartoon to its pilot for instance. (It's pretty obvious in the Steven Universe one)

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Quality exchanged for quantity

Always-be-on-model thinking plays a part.

How do you know they're paid more? I've never heard or been able to find out anything about how much Korean animators make.

Having more animators doesn't mean better animation.

But it isn't even jarring when in motion. If it was some bullshit like John K.'s intro then I would be in full agreement, but the Simpsons should never look sterile like Family Guy.

>paid more
Citation needed

Dammit I forgot how cool Amy looked in pilot

>even though they get paid more compared to the other days
Really, even with inflation correction and stuf?

>hits trashcan
this is fucking poetic

Because most people working in the industry aren't actually animators.

Koreans dont draw animation, they just color and process it.

People thought computers were the best thing to help them out, only it made things worse.

Also Matt is an idiot who wouldn't know what good animation is.

On IMDB the only non-Korean animation jobs listed are for the main title and couch gags.

How did computers make things worse?

Groening hated when The Simpsons veered into cartoon territory. He was always trying to reign it in. Like in the commentary Groening super hated an episode where Homer's face turns purple and blue as he's choking, or when Homer has a heart attack and there's this beautiful 10 second intricate animation of him dying as Mr. Burns rips into him with a cross section of his heart twisting.

But as for that scene in particular, I remember a commentary from the animator who said he made it similar to the original but someone (either Groening or FOX) wanted it toned down.

If I ever had a cartoon series of my own that was mainstream, I would never have foreign labor work do it for me. I want my own team based in America to do it. Like the good old days you know, It's mostly a lazy thing done by companies just so they wouldn't have to hire anybody.

Heck there are even some creators of cartoons of today that don't really like it either. It's not the animators decision but mostly hacks like Ted Turner and Bob Igers. I just feel that Foreign labor work for cartoons is a lazy mans job. There's so many Americans that don't earn enough, I just thing hiring foreign people in another country to do it is kind of a dickmove to those who want to enter the animation industry. Plus I don't support families in other countries being taken from their homes to work on some cartoon so there's that.

>even though they get paid more compared to the other days?
There's no "even though", it's the fact they got paid less when they did more that's informed them they were wasting time and effort.

Imagine yourself in a similar position, a lot of people like to talk about having passion for their work but I know even more that once they've actually get in a comfortable position they won't want to budge. I'm not shaming them for this, I'm just illustrating it's common behavior.

After all it's only logical, there's no incentive or real benefit out of just working harder for appearances.

I mean, consider this, you and others seemed to only bring attention to the effort in those frames to complain about the change, were you admiring and praising their inclusion beforehand?

Don't misunderstand. Criticism is necessary, everyone's free to express their opinion and no one in a profession should exactly be coddled every step of their job, but the thing is people are human, and it's only human to find if someone's never given positive reinforcement and only ever gives reproval their opinion is categorized as a negative, and then they're not likely to be considered a positive influence to the person's subsequent behavior.

It doesn't always work, but this is why Speak With Your Wallet is encouraged.

Animators in Japan put a lot of effort into their work even though it doesn't make them more money.

Well prepare to have shitty animation that costs millions of dollars per episode and is a year past deadline because of union and labor disputes. In other words you'll be starting Spumco II.

Groening was good at drawing the same comic panel 20 times but he didn't know shit about cartoons.

>Spumco II
>Implying Steven Universe or Family Guy's animation isn't shit

I'll be hiring 1000s of people, John K only hired somewhere around 15 to 20 people.

He basically wanted Married With Children and was super pissed off whenever anybody deviated from the generic sitcom mold. Sam Simon was the one who wanted "cartoon sitcom" and insisted that these guys are fucking cartoons and can go into space or hell or whatever.

I'd say it was that contention that made The Simpsons what it was and you need a troubled staff to make really good art. Once Al Jean took over a second time you can really see how flippant and boring the show gets because whatever, he's got his millions so why do better?

Plus John K was a major dickwad to everybody he worked with, I'm not the type of guy. I don't care if someone draws Simpsons-Tier toons. While John K only hired people only to ditch them right on the spot. Plus if you've seen such marvelous wonders like Larva, Squrriel and Hedgehog or even The Reef 2 you'll know Korean Animation isn't the best. I'm fine with Hiring animators from countries that marvel at the thing but not low end third worlders who've never seen how cartoons fully operate. There's a big contrast to Japanese Animation and Korean or Chinese Animation. One is good while the other two tend to have low end bargain bin type animation.

First of all different atmosphere.

Too much slacking there could risk one losing their job and just seeing no work. You invest in animation in Japan and you'd better be in for the long haul. Additionally too many fish croaking it could poison the well in time. It literally becomes a slippery slope as new hands show up with less experience and skill, and less time and money to gain the experience and skill if the old guard leaves their post before the shift is ready.
Individually and collectively there's a lot of pressure and weight of responsibility in Anime and Manga. The support from fans is so strong because they recognize its delicate nature, and efforts to go towards crowd funding to alleviate the tension are indicative it's not something that's letting up.

Secondly there are still those Mangaka and studios who do start to show slack when they find their profits are secure. There have been several subtle and not so subtle quality cuts over the years to trim the fat.
One of the most obvious and common is see through hair and side mouth, people have adjusted to these and consider it as a style, or part of the style of Anime and Manga itself, but really it's a shortcut to spare oneself having to hassle with details and perspective every frame for something someone could blink, miss and never care about ever again.

So, shit, I'm not going to send every Anime studio an angry letter demanding they go out their way to do something I've never once brought up until it happened to piss me off personally.
The complaint about cutting corners is fair enough, the demand that something be plastered back on at a whim is a little questionable though.

>Thousands of people work on one cartoon
>Nobody watches it
>Adult Swim airs it at 2AM

>One of the most obvious and common is see through hair and side mouth, people have adjusted to these and consider it as a style, or part of the style of Anime and Manga itself, but really it's a shortcut to spare oneself having to hassle with details and perspective every frame for something someone could blink, miss and never care about ever again.
Those are stylistic. They have nothing to do with shortcuts. If they didn't want the hair to be see-through they would just paint over it.

Good luck with your animation studio that puts out costlier shows than Pixar. Spending hundreds of millions for something that gets nothing in return sounds like a cool endeavor.

They're totally shortcuts in animation. They occur pretty rarely in manga, even among the manga that would then get an anime.

>Korra was animated by several Korean animators
>Gets put on nicktoons
>Eventually Cancelled

There's more countries than Korea that I can pick from. I rather work with the countries that border it since they usually have better animators that aren't limited to stiff animation or something that's in your walmart Bargain bin. Russia and Japan are the best animation out of all of Asia. I can hire labor works from those countries instead. You're right about the whole Spumco thing, But Korea is just not the best place to hire labor workers since most of their people can't even marvel at the concept.

Where is the shortcut? They could simply paint over the hair part instead of making it translucent.

"Sidemouth" is affected by the camera angle and the character design style. It may be used as a timesaver, but not necessarily.

>If they didn't want the hair to be see-through they would just paint over it.
After using the shortcut to make it easier to keep track of eyes and other details under the hair each frame, it would be a hassle to properly remove or paint over them without any errors the entire sequence, rather than just leave the details as is and fill the empty space the same color as the hair.

A shortcut loses its efficiency if backtracking requires caution.

That picture's a bad example. In the original opening the focus is on Marge, she's at the center of the gag. She is concerned because she doesn't know where Magie is, she turns to look for her, sees her come out of the shopping bag, and is relieved.

In the new intro Marge is no longer the focus of the gag, it becomes about Magie and her rivalry with the unibrow baby. For most of the gag the camera pans away from marge to show the other baby. Marge in a minor background element who isn't involved with the meat of the gag.

They could easily paint over it, and animators regularly do things a lot more complicated than keeping track of what's under a strand of hair. It's not a shortcut.

*Workers
*Have

My mistake

>they get paid more compared to the other days?

Do they even? Old people and retards like to say shit about how low wages were back in the day but they conveniently forget to mention that food and rent were insanely cheap back then.

>They could easily paint over it
A statement easier said than shown.

Even the most intensive works have errors, in Akira there's a scene where the blood that should be on the floor rests over the head of Takeshi and remains in place as he slides away.
youtu.be/aVYG8wqIFw8?t=2m16s

It's an old film obviously and the more modern tech is here, but the point remains just hoping you don't make any errors while painting over something is really no more safe than avoiding the risk of that paint job sticking over something else or creating other problems with the lines.

I only even noticed this slip because I watch the movie in its finished form too many times than should be healthy, I can't imagine them going through this short few seconds over and over just to catch that when they have other things to do. Shortcuts happen, mistakes happen.

It's not a shortcut. Not everything you see in anime is a shortcut.

There's an animation thread on /ic/, ask them about the matter.

You either get it out on time to fit the season premiere deadline, or you have a show with good animation that can take years to produce (Venture Bros). Which one do you think the the network prefers? it's one of the reasons why John K and his staff got fired

As if /ic/ would know anything about how anime is made. Barely anyone on this site even watches more than a few shows a year.

I also forgot to say that if the hair covers up an eye or part of the eye then that means less work. Eyes can be very complex in anime.

>As if /ic/ would know anything about how anime is made
Seem keen.

Linking to a video doesn't mean you understand how anime is made.

I really like Simpsons seasons 3-8 a lot. But holy shit, are way too many Simpsons fans the most wound-up, obsessive creeps you could ask for, especially on Sup Forums. Almost worse than Star Wars fans.

The Trump sketches show that Matt was wrong about the Simpsons and how it shouldn't be cartoony. If it was still more cartoony it would've felt more alive.

If I'm ever letting labor work do animation for me, It would be from Japan and Russia. Korean Animation is left to be desired in my personal opinion. Their animation is just far more stiff and lacking. While Japan and Russia have great looking cartoons and animators. And all have the same quality of living. If I'm choosing any country to have my animation be worked on it would be those two. There are already a few cartoons that have their animation done in those places and turn out to be really good.

>Several detailed explanations as to why its a shortcut
>BUT IT'S NOT A SHORTCUT WAH

I feel bad for the user other even giving you the time of day.

Drawing an eye instead of covering it up with a strand of hair is not a shortcurt.

>Sup Forums thinks that anything other than incredibly low-budget animation and 3d shit is done in the west anymore

Is Sup Forums the board that is the least knowledgeable about their subject?

No, that would be Sup Forums. The Western anime community is the most ignorant fandom in existence, if you can even call it a fandom.

modern western animators just don't know how to draw anymore

Koreans don't know how to animate other then what they've seen on Family Guy. That's why most cartoons on television now that use Korean labor work have shit animation while ones from other countries usually have it better. We need to bring back the animation alliance that had America and Japan in the center.

Japan is struggling to meet the demands of their domestic production and the industry is booming. They aren't going to start doing outsourcing for low quality American shows.

Not knowing the basics of your board's topic is pretty embarrassing.

>How did computers make things worse?
Simple- People started shortcutting their way in the industry, which is why most Flash shows are often stiff, inexpressive or flat (or any combination thereof).

And it happened hwere when the Simpsons went HD. As soon as it did, the animation lowered to the point where it's only BARELY above that of Family Guy and it's just now starting to improve.

From the words of the person responsible...

>The super market-This whole scene was mine. I didn't like what they did where they cut pieces of body parts and moved them in the computer ie. Maggie's head etc. It looks like it was done in flash. About the Marge turn, I had originally done a version where she did a nice head turn but, again, they didn't want it. "Just have a simple head turn because we want the joke to be Maggie and the unibrow baby," they told me. I didn't know they were going to stiffen it up that much, I'm just defending myself because that seems to be the first thing people mention is Marge. They kept my Maggie scan and popping out of the bag though and in my defense they added the fist shaking later, I didn't do those 2 drawing cycle *eck*

>The reason why the show has stiffend up is because there was an era when fox would tell directors that we had to draw every pose we drew perfectly on model. No distorting of the forms of any kind. It has slowly been dieing down the past couple seasons but they still insist on making the show more about the writing and less about the looks. Every once in a while we'll get let loose and we can do some fun stuff but on the whole don't blame the artists please. Believe me all of us working there would love to express the characters in more ways but there's just so much we can do.

>Interference from up top takes out the good and throws in the bad
Every. Time.

You can take shortcuts and make cheap animation with cel animation too. Digital animation just makes the whole animation process easier and faster.

It's not just that Marge isn't the focus. Look at how lifeless and stiff she looks for the frames she's in.

She looks like an animatronic.

>taking a shortcut instead of doing it right IS NOT A SHORTCUT.
How can people even be this retarded

What are you talking about? I just said that drawing an eye takes more effort than having the hair cover it, which is true.

Yeah, but it looks less awkward when it's done the old fashioned way. Digital just somehow looks cheaper than traditional ink & paint/paper-drawn animation when it takes such shortcuts.

There's no difference when it comes to animation.

It's not the animators' fault that their budgets are so low.

Well you better be prepared to make your own studio because I doubt any existing network service would give you the option to do that,

True, but in this case it seems the animator could and did try to get more bang for the buck regardless of budget, but was told to get back to his cubicle and let the suits talk

in that case it's even worse because this "baby gag" you're talking about involves them shaking their fists at each other, but it has hilariously choppy animation with like 2 different frames

daily reminder that normalfags will prefer the newer opening because it "looks cleaner"

>That head turn in the newer one
Wtf it looks unnatural as hell.

>shadman
yes

no anticipation
isn't this the first thing you learn in animation class?

Old days like Termite Terrace? Those days had a lot of turnaround, actually.

Plus, unless you're willing to chain up people in your basement working on 5-8 minute shorts every couple of months, you're not going to get very far.

Animators from around the world get paid jack shit

Marge-bot is out of control!

Because they realized that only autistic people use freeze frames to look for "errors" which aren't actually errors. The old animation might have been more complex, but it also looked like shit compared to the new stuff. That's a cast iron fact.

Simple isn't bad. Oft times simpler is just better.

>Yeah, but it looks less awkward when it's done the old fashioned way. Digital just somehow looks cheaper than traditional ink & paint/paper-drawn animation when it takes such shortcuts.

Sorry brah, but you're blinded by nostalgia, or some other mentality that boils down to "new = bad, old = good".

"The old fashioned way"? Please. Computers didn't tell an animation director to cut corners and make cheap animation. An executive from the animation department's budget committee told the animation director, "Make it fast, make it cheap, and make it good." and sent them on their way.

Since you can't have all 3, they get the first 2 and "good" becomes the dump stat that they forgo to meet the time/budget requirements set by the production company.

The only thing preventing industry animators from actually making good animation is budgets and deadlines, not the evil computers.

If you want proof, see this inspiring talk by Glen Keane (one of the greatest traditional animators of all time) using modern technology to further his study of animation: youtube.com/watch?v=1ftHVPJJ26I

He uses flash, tablets, and even consumer VR headsets to make quality animation. So don't try to blame shitty animation on computers; it's just not logical.

>The old animation might have been more complex, but it also looked like shit compared to the new stuff. That's a cast iron fact.

Here's your (you)

I feel like there should be a cracking noise accompanying it.

But we don't, ratings prove that much. As for the merchandise, that's a different story.

Look at this quality animation. It looks like garbage.

youtube.com/watch?v=o2uCOJ7kU8A

All right all right, I fucked up. But at the same time, the idea was that the corner cutting techniques of the old day looked... less artificial and tweened than the corner cutting of modern flash animation.

I get that doesn't (or can't) make sense, but that's how I've seen it. I get that it's the fault of the animator/executive and never the tool (unless it's a faulty or outdated piece of garbage). But you cannot tell me that cheap modern flash looks any better than old 70s H-B/Filmation crap either.

Only because you're using season 1, which everyone knows looks like utter dogshit.

Unions

Reminder that the Simpsons' stiff animation is a creative and not a financial choice:
>row flying across clouds-The version they used was my 4th pass. My first pass was awesome because they first told me to animate it "like a real crow but with more personality because it has 3 eyes." So I did but Groening said it was "too cartoony," so I did another one more realistic. He said it was "too realistic," so we settled on what's there now. It's a little strobey because I had origianlly did it on 1's because they wanted fast wing flaps but it looks like they put it on 2's.
>Sideshow Bob- Bob was fully animated on 1's as well and I did a sweet fluid version of him swinging the machete but the response I got was "it's too fancy."

And the newer seasons have gone back on this, but I doubt they'll redo the intro ever again.