>Didn't tell jokes
>Didn't make you laugh
>Didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
>Every human but me said he was the best Joker
Fucking why? He was a great villain, yes, and had great improv and lines, but this was a very, very bad Joker. Even Cesar Romero was a better Joker!
Also Harvey was killed off too quickly.
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He did the pencil magic trick.
OP, next time you want to bitch about "not muh Joker", do it in your diary.
He made me laugh plenty.
>Didn't tell jokes
He made a few, they're just crude, possibly intentionally so, which is something he admits himself when he first meets the crime circle.
Paraphrasing one example
>Where is he?
>What time is it?
>What does that matter?
>Well depending on what time it is, he's in one place or several.
Gordon himself seems unamused by this remark, but he acknowledges that Joker is playing games by making it to begin with (admittedly he's also being dead serious but the point is he's making a joke of the matter)
>Didn't make you laugh
Burning Lau on the mob's money was hilarious.
>Didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
See above, nothing better than seeing the masters of cruelty fed their own medicine.
You keep singing that solo though.
>Harvey was killed off too quickly
If Harvey lived on as Two-Face and escaped or got arrested then Joker would have won completely since he'd eventually crack one way or another and prove to Gotham that no one is above corruption not even their (assumed) golden boy.
normies don't give a fuck about who the "true" Joker is, you sperg. This is the only version they know besides the cartoon.
>>Every human but me said he was the best Joker
>Fucking why?
He doesn't have to be extremely similar to a comic book version for him to be "the best"
>>Didn't tell jokes
Wrong.
>>>Didn't make you laugh
Wrong.
>>Didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
Wrong.
>>Every human but me said he was the best Joker
Wrong.
Don't make this thread again.
kind of agree, he was more of a.... i dunno. a cool villain but not the joker
just like the one in burton batman. good villain. not the joker.
really, the best live action joker we've gotten was jim carrey's riddler.. who was just half campy 60s joker and half campy 60s riddler (he was way jokier than the riddler usually is. a lot more playful)
>the best live action Joker was Jim Carrey's Joker
You are absolutely correct, holy shit
That's the point of Harvey, though - the best that became the worst
Because everyone watched this movie and thought it was the deepest, grittiest thing of all time and TDK Joker to be the greatest villain ever written.
>this was a very, very bad Joker
Have you considered that maybe the problem isn't the script, but that Joker is a terrible character ?
I laughed. Pencil trick, grenade vest, count of 3, detonator fiddling, applause for Gordon, etc.
Guess your sense of humor just sucks.
Also the whole two face thing after the Joker died was completely unnecessary. Should've been a whole other movie.
Gave us this. I love this no matter what
>Didn't tell jokes
>"No, I'm supposed to kill the bus driver."
>"You know, I'd settle for his loved ones."
>"Very poor choice of words."
>"One place or several"
He told plenty of jokes and had a bunch of funny one-liners
b-but he set a fire truck on fire!
He made you think.
Unironically.
>Joker is a terrible character
Not when the writer has a sense of humor he's not
>Fucking why?
Bluntly: because the actor who played him OD'd right after. Period, full stop.
FFS they were literally rooting for him to get a fucking OSCAR for it!
Agreed.
Great villain.
Horrible Joker.
>Joker is a terrible character
Literal garbage opinion.
The biggest problem with Nolan is that he took most of his inspiration from Jeph Loeb.
And like Loeb, he prefers to write characters as plot devices to be sacrificed for the story's plot, "themes" and action sequences, rather than actual characters.
So it resonates well with normies who want to watch something "deep" because the unwarranted self-importance these stories carry easily seeps into the viewers.
Joker was not an exception, if anything he was the most egregious example of this.
Is that why Commissioner Loeb is a bad guy? Because Loeb IRL is a bad writer?
>Didn't tell jokes
Slaughter is the best medicine. What doesn't kill you. Etc etc.
>Didn't make you laugh
Pencil trick. Making fun of the mob. Dressing up as a nurse with a Harvey Dent sticker. Stumbling out of the flipped truck.
Did several times.
>Didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
Literally the best and most enjoyable parts of the movie are the ones where he does this.
That's just the stuff I remember from 2 years ago, I could probably name more if I saw it again.
Why does Two face always get killed off?
Agreed. Great performance, but I never got a Joker vibe from him.
Because tragedy is the key of what makes Two-Face work.
But Two-Face wasn't in this movie.
There was a very angry Harvey Dent played by Aaron Eckhart in this movie. Same as there was a very ugly Joker played by Tommy Lee Jones in Batman Forever.
But I still haven't seen Two-Face in a live-action Batman movie and I'm afraid I never will
No you stupid fucking non-comics-reading summerfag, it's because Commissioner Loeb was the corrupt police commissioner in Frank Miller's seminal Year One from 198-fucking-7.
>Joker is a terrible character
fucking finally someone else agrees
Not OP, but the Pencil Trick didn't really make me laugh when I saw it. It was just like "oh, damn, that happened." And if that's the only example you can cite, I have to agree with him.
>oh, excuse me I want to drive
>pushes a dead man's body out of the truck
>joker doesn't tell jokes
>doesn't make you laugh
Still better than jack nicholson
This. let us have our safe space. Don't question how little our opinions make sense.
Who cares. I didn't want to see a comic book representation, just a good movie.
>go to bed Hotdiggedydemon.
hotdiggedydemon, is that you? How's your life going?
>how's his life going
apparently pretty badly. He just had a kidney stone removed and he has seems to have some kind of gastric odor problem as well.
Get out
Nicholson was great
Pardon the source, but this a great breakdown of what defines comic book Joker, and why the DCAU Joker is such a faithful adaptation.
jester-of-genocide.tumblr.com
I think most points still apply to Heath Ledger's Joker:
>Multiple origins
His contradictory scar stories.
>Overly High Self-Esteem/Egotistical/Extremely Narcissistic
"If you're good at something, never do it for free!"
>Notorious Liar
Another possible read of the scar stories - either he's so crazy he genuinely remembers his backstory differently, or he's a regular Prince of Lies.
>Who cares about money?
The "a better class of criminal" scene, obviously.
>A Greedy Jester
However, he's not above stealing to fund his mayhem, as seen in the opening bank robbery.
>Laughing in the face of death
Literally happens when he's thrown off the building in the end.
>Obsession with Batman
I mean, duh.
>Lives for The Battle of Wits
"I have a feeling we're going to be doing this forever!" I mean, he didn't, but that's actor existence failure.
>Protective of Batman
When some dude on TV threatens to reveal Batman's identity, he fucking sets the entire city against him to protect his game with Bats.
>Contradictions
Dislikes guns but uses them anyway, & his hypocritical hatred of "schemers"
>Unsteady relationship with Two-Face
Again, duh.
>Escape artist
The MCU escape scene.
>Master of Disguise
There's Nurse Joker of course, and his police disguise is a straight-up reference to Batman #1
>Jokes/boasts about insanity
"I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve."
There are some differences - TDK Joker doesn't use any clown-themed gimmick weapons, nor Joker gas/venom, but I feel that stuff has always been secondary. It's neat, but the only real point it adds to the Joker's personality is "he loves his wonderful toys just as much as Batman loves his", which is shown through his cheeky use of big vehicles he could concievably steal, and shit like cable guns or ROCKET LAWNCHAIR.
There's lots of inspiration taken directly from the comics too, mostly TKJ and the first issue of Batman.
>Joker announces his murderous intent over radio/TV in modern adaptations
>voice described as "a toneless drone"
>preferred weapon is a knife
>decides to drive a public servant mad to prove a point/undermine the city's faith in law & order/vindicate his "edgy and nihilistic" philosophy, ala TKJ
>clown-themed gimmick weapons, nor Joker gas/venom
Earthling Cinema suggested that the smoke grenade in the beginning can be seen as a gag sort of thing.
I figured they didn't do the Joker venom because they just came from doing Scarecrow and also probably felt it would trip up on Joker's ambiguous experience if he was specifically a specialized biochemical terrorist and not just a conventional one. Reason being for that is this Joker hasn't been altered by chemicals, that we can see, so he couldn't just know a batch of them puts a grim smile on someone, the reason his knowledge is handwaved in most incarnations is because he's subjected to a form of the stuff himself and then just applies a more concentrated, lethal dose on others. They compensate by having him cut faces and smear smiles on the one Batman impersonator anyway.
I definitely agree though that the other simple but effective stuff he uses is good for how it illustrates his point about appreciating cheap but simple things. Like the timer rigged screen shade to draw attention away from him aiming at the Mayor. If you think about it not only is it very basic, but it could have even been more barebones. There's no reason for Joker to have used a method with that kind of sound, but to anyone who was there, Batman or no, the offbeat nature of it produces the grim comedy when it goes off and draws the fire of snipers who are supposed to be aiming for Joker instead. Such a complex gag done with something commonplace.
Same thing with his whole One Phone Call IED setup. He could have just rigged it to any number of things, but his flare for theatrics demanded he inject some irony in his one call being lethal to everyone else thereby guaranteeing it gets him out of jail.
>If Harvey lived on as Two-Face and escaped or got arrested then Joker would have won completely since he'd eventually crack one way or another and prove to Gotham that no one is above corruption not even their (assumed) golden boy.
And that would've led to better movies than Rises because that's what comics Gotham is like.
The thing is though as contrived as it was TDK was all about punishing Bruce for being obstinate. Even if it was for good reasons the whole conceit of the movie is to show that eventually a kind of criminal would come along who can't be dealt with through his usual methods, and their methods would subsequently force him to deal with things he can't shrug off. Several people being tortured, dying, chief of them Rachel, and Dent becoming consumed with the guilt and grief Bruce would not allow himself to be was boiling towards the point where if Bruce did not buckle from the pressure then he would have to leave bruised. Joker making him inadvertently break his one rule and cause Harvey's death after ironically managing to save the Joker was sort of necessary to drive this home.
We had to see that even as he rides off into the night the shadows of the events of the past few nights chase him. Yes it's true the reality of Gotham is hidden, but that was the point of him doing it. He wanted to see a Gotham, however temporary, that was as ideal as Thomas and Harvey imagined and he was willing in the end to sacrifice Batman and Harvey if necessary to see towards that.
After Bane reveals the truth in Rises Gotham more or less returns to its scumbag nature, turning on Dent and the cops, turning to Bane and his terrorists, neglecting Batman's warnings and so on. We see the true face of Gotham through most of Begins and TKDR so it's not entirely absent.
He's got a sense of humor, it's just pretty dry.
>"Do you think you can steal from us and get away with it?"
>"Yeah."
But the comics give some reason why Joker is obsessed with Batman. I watch The Dark Knight again yesterday, and not once was there ever any reason for Joker to become obsessed with the Bat, and given his character, it is out of character for the Joker to care so deeply about someone that has given him no reason to be interested about
He was the modern progression of the Joker's intent. To the Joker's nihilistic worldview, life itself is the joke, and chaos is the best punchline. Most of his dialogue and delivery perfectly conveyed that concept.
If you think a jokes and puns character would be a better choice for a modern Joker then you're probably expecting something more along the lines of Leto's joker (not that he was funny at all, but the in-your-face jocular kind of madness was certainly more their intent there).
>and not once was there ever any reason for Joker to become obsessed with the Bat
He tells him in interrogation, Batman provides him a stage.
Without the opposition of Batman's insanely resourced operation the mob wouldn't need Joker's insane schemes as a distraction or counter measure, so they wouldn't need to fund or tolerate him, so he'd have to go back to robbing banks to fund his kicks that eventually end unsatisfactorily like with the Bank Manager or Gambol who play his straight man for a bit until they can't keep up and he moves on. He wants someone who can, someone he can point to and tell the goons or Gotham
>This is the reason I'll keep doing worse
Even if it's never true, because it's not about there being a reason it's about a reaction.
He even points it all out to Batman in the same interrogation that watching people who think they're in control inevitably aimlessly scurry like rats for safety makes them show and see their true nature. Which is the only ends for him regardless of the means he'll improvise for his amusement. Once he realizes how much potential there is behind Batman, he doesn't intend to end the act short and instead opts to squeeze out as much material as he can before the gag gets old.
It's not just Batman either. Look what happened once he had Harvey at his mercy in the hospital. He doesn't just cap him with the gun he has, and it was very much loaded as Harvey uses it later in Maroni's car, even when he was looking to kill him earlier at the party and likely with the rigged explosions in the warehouse. He instead tries to get more entertainment out of him and turns him on the mob and Gordon.
He had plenty of jokes, they were just off to the side (other than the pencil trick) and you had to watch out for them.
>mocking the seizing good who just got electrocuted
>here's my card
>"you think you can just steal from us and walk away!?" "yeah."
>nurse outfit
>I just want my phone call
>detonator gag
There's likely others I've missed.
>didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
I also disagree with this, but it's probably a personal thing.
>He was a great villain
No, he wasn't. He was a one-dimensional cliche character.
>inb4 b-but billions of flies can't be wrong
Thank you.
He was a pretty great villain because he did everything a villain is supposed to do, i.e the effect they have on the protagonist.
No, fuck off.
>muh effect on the protagonist meme
You can write any shitty villain have an effect, won't make them magically good.
What a waste of a get.
No, like everything it depends on how well it's done, which in TDK it is done very well.
>one dimensional meme
A villain doesn't need to be multidimensional to be good. Case in point, Black Manta.
>which in TDK it is done very well
If you have low standards.
John Doe from Se7en was a similar idea but actually executed well.
>Black Memeta
I rest my case.
>Not liking Black Manta
Ok, so the type of character just isn't for you. That doesn't mean it's objectively bad, and you're a fool if you think that.
>>Didn't tell jokes
>>Didn't make you laugh
>>Didn't make you revel in madness and cruel irony
are you retarded?
Comic book Joker never had any jokes either.
Are you making fun of Joker's boners?
>Fucking why?
I know this may be a shock to you, but humans have different opinions than each other.
>>Didn't tell jokes
>>Didn't make you laugh
He told jokes he found funny. Think about this carefully.
If the writers weren't trying to make the audience laugh, but demonstrate how creepy and off a person who does these things for his fun and enjoyment. How would that turn out?
>If the writers weren't trying to make the audience laugh, but demonstrate how creepy and off a person who does these things for his fun and enjoyment. How would that turn out?
HUNKA HUNKA
>HUNKA HUNKA
Basically yeah. The Jokers in the movies aren't meant to be funny, because it would come off campy.
So they instead veer to the other direction to keep it from feeling adam west.
Because a Jack Nicholson-tier Joker would have felt extremely out of place in a Nolan film.
>I watch The Dark Knight again yesterday, and not once was there ever any reason for Joker to become obsessed with the Bat,
Rewatch the big chase scene. Joker is having notably way more fun after Batman shows up. That's all it comes down to. He even gets a big kick out of his henchman being electrocuted by Batman's mask.
I agree. Great villain, terrible Joker.
>not muh X
He was the best character who resided under the brand "The Joker."
You can feel free to disagree with that statement, but if you disagree that that is what "being the best Joker" means, then you are some form of nerd culture dweeb.
>Didn't tell jokes
Fire truck
Slaughter
"Cheap suit" "You outta know, you paid for it."
"Let's not blow this out of proportion."
2 variants of the scar story
Pencil trick
Dressing as a nurse to get to Dent.
There was plenty of Joker to him.
It was a great Joker for anyone that isn't a casual, ironically.