Sam Wilson as Captain America was ultimately racist

The only way to make him live up to the legacy of Captain America was to destroy Steve Rogers legacy.

Nick Spencer couldn't write a Sam competently to be an equal to Steve, instead he had to drag Captain America down to Falcon's level.

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This.

Destroying Steve to make Sam the default Cap.

But Marvel backed out of that because people smelled Spencer's scheme a mile off.

Nope

>instead he had to drag Captain America down to Falcon's level

Insinuating that Sam is a sub-human on the level of Nazis?

Sam has been Cap's buddy for decades and Bucky already wore the suit once. Sam wearing it was perfectly fine as an idea.

>instead he had to drag Captain America down to Falcon's level.

The only racist thing here is you and you r opinion. Steve has been brainwashed into being a Nazi against his will.

This post is racist.

>implying I think Sam is sub-human

The point of my post was that it was racist to drag Steve down so that Sam (who in my eye was already an equal before he had the shield) could be seen as better than cap by default.

>being surprised that Spencer is a hack at drama

He can only do joke books.

I'm surprised he can go lower than my expectations, yes.

>Destroying Steve to make Sam the default Cap.

Steve is literally going back to being Captain America this fall

ya'll are retarded.

I think it's racist for you to assume they dragged Steve down.

So you don't see turning a hero into a Hitler-esque villain as dragging down?

Not when he's literally BRAINWASHED into being a Nazi and thus not culpable for his actions.

Funny enough Secret Empire is trying to pull a BLM correlation with Falcon and a young antifa punk named Rayshaun. He's a minor character now but his origin was that he was a kid from the ghetto that firebombed a bank after Rage got arrested in Civil War II (even put on face pant to mimic Rage's mask). Funny enough people were in there and you can see them run from the blast and some on fire so Rayshaun probably killed some people and is now a Dindu. Later he gets a dead drop from Rick Jones and delivers it to the Resistance (Falcon, Widow, etc). Supposedly Falcon is getting disillusioned with it all and it looks like they'll try to turn Rayshaun into the new Falcon or something tied to him.

This issue sucked
Miles would never beat Cap with Shield
Punisher would never do such a slobby job.

Fuck Spencer. This event is cancer.

AYO NIGGA HOL UP

BLACK FOLK CAN'T BE RACIST CUZ WHITEY WUZ FIRST

SAM A GUD BOI FIGHTIN FO ALL THE ILLEGAL MEXICAN NIBBAS JUMPING THA BORDER TO GET MUH MUTHAFUKKIN WEED

FUCK TRUMP AND FUQQ WHITE PEOPLE 100 100

You know, I thought Black Cat was being petty and unreasonable after Superior Spiderman, but after a while I began to understand her point of view. This shit gets really retarded after the 300th time it happens.
>"It wasn't the real me! I was under the influence of the villain/plot device! There was nothing I could have done!"
>"You have to understand! My body was being controlled against my will! It wasn't my fault!"
>"No! I never would have done this! It was an evil doppleganger/alternate self/Skrull!"
Oh yeah? And so what? Are the bystanders who suffered because of whatever the fuck just happened supposed to simply accept your excuses and forget everything? Directly responsible or not, what happened is still on you, and as such you should take your part of the blame and face the consequences.

>i-it's brainwash so i-it doesn't count
The old one always works. :^) It makes me wish brainwash existed in real life, the court trials would be hilarious.

>The only way to make him live up to the legacy of Captain America was to destroy Steve Rogers legacy.

Maybe if you're a bad writer

Yawn. Lazy Sup Forums-tier shitposting. At least put some effort in, little guy.

Wasn't there an Astro City issue exactly about that?

There was, and it was goddamn good.

That's a separate issue. A hero being brainwashed into doing something awful that goes against his very character does not mean he's being dragged down and sullied. Because he's a fictional character who we all know will soon bounce back into being his old self. And there will be some plot device to redeem himself. Like erasing his memory for the past year or whatever.

Of course man, it's Kurt Busiek... I wish he were writing Avengers again.

None of that is racist.

Just brushing everything under the rug isn't redeeming a character. It is making the entire past run completely pointless.

Legacy heroes don't make sense when 1. The original is still hanging around 2. The mantle has been taken at least once before, in a much more impressive way, and they're still hanging around 3. The costume sucks

There was really no reason for FalCap to exist, especially since he's just the Falcon in different colors.

If you could bring back Busiek c. 2002 I'd agree. Unfortunately these days he's competing with Waid to see who can be the biggest virtue signalling jackass. I think the election broke all these guys' brains. Current Year Busiek would never have the balls to do another storyline like the Triune Understanding

Bill Wilson > Sam Wilson

>It is making the entire past run completely pointless.

That's how capeshit works, my friend. Remember when Magneto sent humans into ovens?

>Unfortunately these days he's competing with Waid to see who can be the biggest virtue signalling jackass

Based on what?

...
I didn't, but from now on I will.
This industry is doomed to ruin, isn't it?

That's not a good example. Ignoring the retcon where it was revealed not to have been Magneto at all, in the story itself he was portrayed as absolutely out of his mind on power-boosting drugs that were actually parts of a sentient parasite from the cambrian age

That's how bad capeshit works. No scratch that, that's how bad storytelling works. If there's no consequences for anything then what's the point of continuing a story? What's the point of a shared universo? Why not every single writer have their own universe where they can use all the characters and do and undo shit as they wish? This isn't how anything should work and you implying that just because that's how it has been for the past ten years, it means it's ok, makes you part of the problem.

Cap shouldn't be let go that easily. There should be lasting consequences. Like ten years worth of stories consequences. What he did wasn't something you forget in an afternoon. If the general audience expectation is that he's still the legendary hero because they'll undo this shit in two lines of dialogue, then it means bad storytelling has finally won and we're conditioned to accept the shittiest crap of storytelling in order to never see our favorite characters face consequences.

Yup. That answers my question.
Yes. It totally is.

>This much backpeddaling

I feel you, and I think what most people fail to understand is how big this whole thing is.
This is Captain America, Steve Rogers, Marvel's main representative of the American ideals and sentiments, beloved hero for nearly a century in both the canon and in reality, suddenly going Third Reich on the US and doing things that would make Doctor Doom look like a pacifist in comparison. They might mindwipe the characters at the end of it all, but they can't do that with the audience. No amount of excuses and retcons is gonna be able to fix this mess, and quite frankly all Marvel will do is drive away even more of it's readers if that's what they go for.

This is what it means to expect nothing and receive even less.

bleedingcool.com/2017/07/22/sdcc-marvel-cup-o-joe-panel-report-lackluster-and-boring-by-joe-glass/

>What did they learn from the controversy over Captain America? Quesada says wouldn’t do anything differently, and it’s a lesson they learned a while ago, they will not be dictated or create with fear. He advises creators to not worry what people are gonna say.

This honestly explains every bad decision they've made since Quesada came on board.

Sam will get BTFO next issue.

He's basing it on Tweets, which is retarded because I've read recent Astro City and I've read Waid's Champions and Avengers and I'd sure as hell still trust current Busiek on Avengers more than current Waid.

>He advises creators not to worry what people are going to say.
Then who are they even making comics for? If their policy towards criticism is to disregard it, then they're wasting time, money and effort (or lack thereof) working in things people other than themselves are supposed to consume.

CIA! NO!

Oh, that's what his name was! Well, guess I can finally stop calling him "CIA".
Nah, just kidding.

The problem isn't the audience opinion. Fuck the audience to be honest. They are gonna complain about everything anyways so fuck them, and double fuck them if we're talking about the Twitter/Tumblr/Reddit audience.

The problem lies on the fact they aren't willing to do something with these stories. Okay we just pissed off a lot of our audience with this Hydra Cap thing. How the fuck are we going to make it matter? Do we kill Rogers? Do we have some other character change forever by getting rid of him? Do we retire the character? How is this shit gonna be worth the fucking 10 dollars people spend on reading it. How is this shit gonna make our universe grow wider and wiser? What kind of teaching or thought are leaving behind in this story? These are the questions they should've been asking when developing this. And frankly, if they had done that, the audience would've been enraged at first but then little by little they would've start turning around and they would've love it by the end. Good stories tend to cause that effect.

Instead we're left with a story that has no deep meaning, no ideas passed, bullshit content, and conditioned to be erased in a few months to boot. Captain America became bad for nothing. They got their bad publicity for nothing. At best they got a comic that sold mild like every other one. In the long run it will be just another bad story that the few who will remember, will remember it as shit.

>They might mindwipe the characters at the end of it all, but they can't do that with the audience

Except when it happened with Jean Grey/Pheonix, Scott Summers, Iron Man, Dr. Doom from Waid's run, Illyana, whatever evil secret is revealed from Charles Xavier's past this week, Scarlett Witch... You clearly don't read enough comics. People will get over it. Some people will make smug Captain Hitler remarks here and then but that's what it will be. It's comics, people forget and move on to be angry about something else.

A competent person would be able to figure out which of the audience is worth listening to and which isn't. And based on Marvel's track record in the last 17 years I don't think they do that.

I wasn't talking about the act of making characters turn evil, I was talking about making big stories that change a character forever in the eyes of the other characters and the audience, just to try and pull a "lol jk nvm" at the end. That's the kind of shit people don't forget.

>Bring so retarded you blame Steve for the work of a Cosmic cube rewriting reality

You people are insane and for everyone best please seek help.

They'll forget, like usual. Beggars can't be choosers, after all.

>that would make Doctor Doom look like a pacifist in comparison.

doom propaganda on Sup Forums is outrageous

His writing didn't get worse, as far as I can tell.

The problem is they really don't think even a bit about long-term. You could see this as far back when they did OMD. That was when a lot of people realized it wasn't worth following Marvel since they would be willing to roll back shit so drastically without dealing with its consequences.

>Steve is literally going back to being Captain America this fall

How does that work? "Oh, sorry I murdered a whole city, killed Natasha and spent months as an iron-fisted Nazi dictator. We're all good, right?"

...

Busiek seems pretty well at keeping his preaching out of his books.
Astro City and Autumnlands are consistently good.

it worked for tony

>Sam wearing it was perfectly fine as an idea.
...and then he needed stories where he actually lived up to the duties and responsibilities of the shield.

>dont worry wanda, you werent yourself when you exterminated all those filthy muties
>it's ok, tony, you just erased your memory of what you did in the Crossing and in the Civil War, we forgive you
>Thor, dont torment yourself, you attacked innocent people but were under the psychic control of the red skull with the brain of Prof. X
>Steve, even tho you brang the world next to the ruin it's ok, the skull manipulated you

>Scott Summer, you fucking Hitler! How dare you try to save the world under the influence of that psychic parasite! And now you want to destroy a cloud to save your species?! You are beyond redemption!

This has happened to Iron Man multiple times

Cosmic retcon, no doubt.

Free spine adjustments? Robert T. Bane is a hero among men!

Cyclops did nothing wrong.
Like, seriously. He did absolutely nothing wrong.

Here's how it worked.

The story didn't go over well. Turns out making it the big summer event was a bad idea. So rather than talking about their fuck up for, what did one user say, a fucking DECADE, they're going to move the fuck on as unobtrusively as possible. It'll come up a few times, and come up way more later when some hot young writer wants his new character to blow Steve the fuck out, but the story itself already got changed from Spencer's original ending. We don't know his endgame (though it sure as hell looks like it was "Sam's Cap indefinitely while Steve mopes around as Nomad.") but it stopped being just his story when the rest of Marvel went "lets do a line wide crossover".