And the moral of the story, is defacing statues is wrong

and the moral of the story, is defacing statues is wrong.

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If this was a modern episode theyd cheer because Jebediah was a slave owner

The irony was that Bart seriously crossed the line and put the whole town against him, yet back in the early 90s this was seen as one of his most destructive, anti-authority outings.

Instead of the treasonous fraud he actually was?

PEOPLE OF Sup Forums! I, um- I don't know quite how to say this- I did a lot of research on Jebediah Springfield, and- - Hmm.

>Jebidiah was a pirate
>Literally killed people & probably owned a ship full of slaves to man his pirate ship
>But we have to keep the statue up because the lie is more important

Hmm, really makes you think

the symbol that the staute represented meant more than the person that it was representing
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."
pulling down statutes leads to destroying art work and burning books

wait there hasn't been a sneed post in this thread has there, thank god

What absolute horseshit. One of the first things people do when they win a war is destroy the remaining iconography of the loser. This is how every human society works, look at all the statues pulled down in the wake of any social revolution.

But the Confederate shit has to be treated with kid gloves and we have pretend there' some worthwhile reason to keep them around.

>Jebidiah was a pirate
>Literally killed people & probably owned a ship full of slaves to man his pirate ship
Pirates were the most liberal people of their time.
They freed slaves and had a really diverse crew.

They were built long after the war was over.
Nobody complained until now.
It's different because this is just a bunch of losers trying to find a place to fit in.
Kind of like Sup Forums, but for people who go outside.

>They were built long after the war was over.

Because we still had to pretend that Confederate history has some sort of positive social value and the Lost Causers had to be pandered to.

Look, if people want to hang the Stars and Bars off their front porch, knock yourself out. But those statues are tantamount to some level of acceptance in the idea that Confederate ideas and concepts have a worthwhile value.

Oh I'm not defending the statues, just pointing out that the protesters are just bandwagoning nerds.

>man owned slaves just like every other person in the 1600s
>let's ignore his accomplishments because he engaged in a social conformity that is no longer compatibile in our progressive current year

What annoys me most is they have no idea what states to wreck. Fucking schools.

>Hans Sprungfeld
>accomplishments

Do what some places are doing and just put up statues of civil rights people and other black figures to balance it.

In Mexico City a plaque commemorates both Cortez and Montezuma, reading something like "the conquest was neither a victory or a defeat but the painful birth of the Mexican nation",

look up every group that ever destroyed statues in history user

Now that I think about it, Jebediah being a pirate makes him more worth of a homage in my eyes than being a boring chastity seeking colonialist.

in all serioussness can all the violence stop? i dont like nazis nor communists

Yeah, but then people start beheading other people instead of beheading statues.

Not entirely true. I mean here in the UK we have a statue of Oliver Cromwell outside parliament, a man who fought a civil war to stop the king becoming a tyrant, but was also responsible for beheading the king, committing virtual genocide in Ireland, becoming a dictator himself and installing radical puritanism and who people hated so much by the time we restored the monarchy they dug up and mutilated his corpse.

I feel like people will, and should be allowed, to celebrate who they want to celebrate for different reasons. I mean sure some people celebrate General Lee because they hate niggers, but some celebrate him because he was a beloved leader to his men and because he fought for his people. It's dumb as fuck to try and tell people who they can and can't admire because they're going tondo it anyway even if there isn't a statue, and if you tell them they can't have one they'll probably develop a persecution complex and more people will be drawn to their ideas because it seems like the government is surpressing them,

1.) Nobody knows if he was a slaver.
2.) That episode was written before the Hans Sprungfeld episode (one of my faves).

3.) The difference is that people KNEW General Lee and Co. were fighting for their right to own black people as slaves. Nobody KNEW about Hans Sprungfeld.

So it's not like there was a lie that needed to be kept to begin with about his misdeeds.

Fair point about artistic integrity etc, but the comparison isn't applicable because of the above.

actual nazi stuff is kept in museums and preserved so people in the future can see it
destroying statues, burning books, errasing people its all barbarous
how can these people claim to stand for culture and identity and then do this? how come mayors support violent groups who destroy sttues instead of using their mayors powers to hire some workers for it?

Well, do you want them to do something worthwhile with their time or not? Even if a lot of them are self-righteous boobs, it's better that they care, like you and most people, than they don't.

Plus if they don't occupy themselves with this they'll start building death rays and shit.

That's how scientists go mad at all, boredom.

all history has a positive value in that all history deserves to be remembered

Well, fine. Take the statue down and put it in a museum.

Also, vandalism is violence of a sort, but don't forget they resort to this and act a bit fascist because they don't want actual fascists trying to run them over.

Still wrong, but it's worth noting why they do it, purely for the sake of understanding how people work.

>Taliban and ISIS destroy statues and artifacts and all history and culture they find offensive
>American "progressives" want to do the exact same thing

You really think these hippies are smart enough to build death rays?

They do it because they think they have a mandate, because they think they're righteous.

>actual nazi stuff is kept in museums and preserved so people in the future can see it

These statues aren't in museums. They're on prominent government property.

>destroying statues, burning books, errasing people its all barbarous

These people are still being talked about in history books, being taught about in school classes.

But statues on government property are crossing the line. Same as when people were complaining about the Confederate flags on government buildings.

>take something from one public place
>put it in another public place
>now it's acceptable
What's the fucking difference? However people feel about the person depicted isn't going to change, you're basically just saying you don't like having to see them.

Listen guys, its not even a secret when and why the statues went up. They went up years after the civil war, in jim crow era, specifically to intimidate blacks. Now if you want to searh for angles of defense on that thats your call, but its not a great looking argument.

>City votes for the statue to be moved to a civil war museum. State makes it illegal. Get surprised when private citizens take matters into their own hands.
>Also caring about a mass produced statue. Built after 1900s.

Nobody complained until now because you didn't lose the whites paying reparations to everyone war until now.

Aren't the same people who complained about the flags now complaining about the statues? Isn't that one of the things people were worried about when they started taking the flags down?

How the fuck is a nazi march where someone died to a terrorist on US soil constructive? At thr bare minimum we could have atleast had a death ray. You really fucked up this time beaver.

>Well, do you want them to do something worthwhile with their time or not?

They do nothing worthwhile

>Plus if they don't occupy themselves with this they'll start building death rays and shit.

I very much doubt a bunch of women's studies majors, drug addicts, and communist bloggers could build a bird house, let alone death rays.

I think the statues look nice

And they were right both times.

They want to move all that to a museum, fine. Some lunatic wants to buy them and stick them on his lawn, knock yourself out.

But not on government land. These things have no worthwhile social value at all.

I totally agree. But then how come there's so much bitching every Feburary?

probably one of the best arguments for keeping the statues around there is

>another Sup Forums thread

GEE I WONDER WHY PHONEPOSTERS EXIST

>th-they only act a b-bit fascist

Oh god you are trying so hard to defend your fellow liberal shit heads it's hilarious. Pro tip: you can't claim to fight against certain people while behaving just like them.
They want violence? I hope they find it. I hope they get their skulls caved in and their skin burnt off. They only make things worse.

Being reminded of the past has value, it gets you thinking about how far we've come as a society, the actions of a those who came before us, a comparative point for how they may have behaved in these circumstances. You seem pretty worked up about this if you think lunatics are the only people who can take something from a confederate statue or flag.

The fact that you don't find any social value in those doesn't mean they don't have any. People want to keep them for a reason.

If you're intimidated by a statue in the post Jim Crow era doesn't that make you kind of a little bitch?

Seriously, this is all just people projecting anger at their own shitty lives and problems they don't want to face up to and deal with onto other things and people. Wow, yeah, that inanimate object sure is oppressing blacks, good job getting it removed! Give yourself a good pat on the back!
>meanwhile black people's lives haven't improved one bit

> Washington was a slave owner therefore he has no right to be pictured on government property
If you hate the nation so much, just fucking LEAVE. Life hack: the entire US revolution was a terrorist uprising supported by the French because rich businessmen were defending their inalienable right to not pay taxes.

I agree that history has value but it's kind of fucked up that US history is written by the winners in 9 out of 10 cases but when the confederacy comes into the equation suddenly we have to tell the loser's story, and often in glowing terms.

Public statues are a a place of honor, museums are a place of historical preservation. Intentionally being obtuse about this shit and its hard to not assume it comes from a place of hate. I mean, when and why did Robert E Lee get so fucking popular?

They also didn't allow women on ships and constantly raped them.
>b-but Anne Bonney
She and her fat friend were there because they were Captain Jack's fucktoys.

If it doesn't matter then why get bent out of shape if people decide to take it down?
>If you hate the nation so much, just fucking LEAVE.
That's literally what the confederacy did. They didn't like the new rules of the land so they left. So why should we literally put them up on a pedestal?

Liberals should be barred from any historical teaching and conservation capacity, debate, study, or governing body.

Never said anything about Washington.

that was like 30 years ago

get with the times grandpa

Racism?

The left ensures he gets more popular by the day.

As long as we don't take down or burn statues of people who signed the declaration of independence or the emancipation proclamation. I mean, it's not like this trend of destroying statues will spread to other figures...

Confederate flags and statues are glorified and protected that much because people view them as symbols of their culture, their history and their distinctive character. It doesn't really have to do anything with racism.

Fun game anons find a statue being moved that was built before the 1900s.

It's ironic, but the left, comprising of antifa, SJW's and LGBT zealots have become the new fascists.

Stomping on the rights of others, campaigning against free speech and attempting to create a tightly controlled society where their world is law and opposing viewpoints must be met with violence and murder.

If history is this important and immutable thing then why are southern states still allowed to call it "The War of Northern Aggression"? Because it sounds like more like revisionist history is only a bad thing when people you dislike are holding the red pen.

Personally I think the ideal compromise would be to leave all the statues and monuments up but spend a couple thousand dollars on a metal placard for each one that says "...And he was an asshole". That way you still get to honor the people but you have to accept that they were also dicks.

>That's literally what the confederacy did.
Confederates were throwing a temper tantrum because they wanted blacks to not have rights or pay taxes yet still fight wars and contribute votes. That's called property, and nowhere in any constitution does property get a vote. Damn hypocrites deserved a good whooping.

It was a defining moment in the history of the nation and underpins most laws upheld in modern day. Putting slavery aside as a major aspect of the civil war, consider the core argument being fought over by the participants; to what degree can a government dictate policy in each individual state if a state's population is opposed to that policy? The answer is the government wins by military force and citizens accept that outcome.

>to accept that they were also dicks
Accept they weren't

Find a picture being of the confederate flag being flown before the 1950s.

Let the population of the town the statue is in vote to decide to keep the statue or donate it to a museum. Outsiders can keep their fucking mouths shut.

Except that history and culture are intrinsically connected to racism. You can't just take out the bad parts.

nothing positive about killing people because you want to own other people as slaves

What would that prove?

It was the North that declared war on the South, after the South legally ceded from the union as was their right according to the constitution.
So it was the war of Northern Aggression, pure and simple.

There is nothing wrong about that, it's fact.

Yeah, they were. All memorable people are dicks to somebody.

Nothing positive about assaulting people because you perceive them to be deserving of it.

The united states was actually prepared to meet the slave owning states halfway and let some states be free and some be slave states and just leave it at that and let it be up to the states to decide.

But because the south seceded, they forfeited the right to have any concessions made. Had they not seceded, slavery might have lasted a bit longer in this nation and things might have gone considerably different.

You just want to make it about race, because this point is easier to defend.

>That's literally what the confederacy did. They didn't like the new rules of the land so they left. So why should we literally put them up on a pedestal?
They were right to leave and the Union should have let them. The people of the Confederacy supported the Confederate government and imposing the rule of Washington on them by force was anti-democratic.

The USA is a ridiculous country, it should be at least two, probably three or four different countries. The people are too different to be governed by a single government and that is what we're seeing boil over now. I'll be surprised if the USA makes it to its 300th anniversary and I hope it doesn't.

Okay dude. If there was a guy who fought a war over keeping your ancestors as objects instead of people, and you had to walk by a statue of that mother fucker on your way to school, maybe youd see it from another angle. If that statue went up in a time when your grandparents were alive to remember getting death threats if they dared vote. Thats when the statues went up and thats what they represent for a lot of americans. You can not care about that, your prerogative, but is it really that hard to understand?

>yfw the south ended slavery

Majority of people polled said that it's not a symbol of racism.

>Putting slavery aside as a major aspect of the civil war,
Why? I thought history was worth cherishing and protecting. I agree with everything else you said and it is worthwhile as an object lesson of states rights but there's more than one way to frame the narrative and when you downplay slavery as so many proponents of keeping these memorials up are wont to do it's immensely hypocritical with regards to preserving and telling the whole story.

>You can't just take out the bad parts
But the Wewuz Kings love pretending to have been Egyptian rulers, without ever mentioning or acknowledging that Egypt was built by slaves.

So why exactly can't you ignore the bad parts and focus on the good?
Or does it somehow magically not apply to anything except white history?

Of course its about race. You can scream that it's actually about states rights all you want, but race was a factor, a major factor, a factor that can't even be removed from the conversation.

>Hes triggered by statues of 100 year old Americans
Either you're black or have heavy white guilt. They're a part of our history and teach us what happened, whether we like it our not. What should the pyramids be torn down because slaves built them?

I think the statues look nice

I wasn't talking about the war itself though, of course slavery was a huge part of it. But Civil War isn't the only part of Southern culture.

user you need to put yourself in his shoes. He probably gets that feeling you get every time starfire or domino gets cast as a black chick.

No don't be silly, we should only tear down monuments in western society because it's evil and white and imperialism and blah blah blah.

You should look up Lee's history and the terrible choice he had to make as the war was starting; side with the government, or his home state which seceded from the union. He went with virginia and saw the war through to the end. He then got the separatist states to come back into the union, everyone respected him as a leader.

I think its the other way around bro
The statues are being taken down to represent how the majority feel in the ever evolving USA. Its you backwoods retards that dont like the nation. I think its time you find a new place to live. Also dont try to take american land on your way out this time unless you wanna lose another war.

The south was defending an archaic form of ball+chain slavery when irish factory owners already perfected a new, superior wage slavery. Plantation owners were under pressure to STEP UP their game to use superior white peasant labor and they refused. They were in the wrong.

>Take the statue down and put it in a museum
well i agree with this completely
problem being people who will protest it being in a museum now

great argument

>But Civil War isn't the only part of Southern culture.

Of course it's not. But Confederate and Southern culture are two different things.

That the flag has has a cultural history behind it.

Sort of. It would have ended on its own more or less but the south pushed the issue and felt that they could win. Obviously in this case it ended far more dramatically and quickly that way but had it not eventually it just wasn't going to remain a viable trade. Every other nation was ending the practice which meant the slave trade from Africa was drying up. There was no way they could expand it to meet up with the demands; not that slavery was all that particularly prominent in the south. It was getting more and more expensive and less viable. It wasn't a sustainable business model, as they say.

Because when you inject slavery into the arguement that's what it all comes back to
>you want to keep the statue up? You support slavery
>you want to keep the confederate flag? You support slavery
>you don't want to rename the streets, parks and buildings? You support slavery
I'm sick to death of hearing it.

>The statues are being taken down to represent how the majority feel in the ever evolving USA
27% of people said they should be removed.

reuters.com/article/us-usa-protests-poll-idUSKCN1B12EG

Glad to see the American South learned from history and isn't latching onto unsustainable business models.

What I wanted to say was the symbol used during CW by the South (Confederate battle flag) has now been adopted as a symbol of Southern culture. It no longer symbolizes what it used to. Like you know, Swastika, which originally symbolized something completely different than what it does in 20th century.

>If there was a guy who fought a war over keeping your ancestors as objects instead of people
Except that was not the point of the Civil War, you brainwashed leftie. That's the narrative that was made up centuries later to vilify the south.

The war was about the North taking too much and giving nothing back to the South, while the South had little to say in matters of legislative and commercial matters despite producing the cotton and food for most of the country.

It was basically the war of independence 2.0, where the US ceded from the British that gave them no representation, the South wanted to leave the North behind which did the exact same thing.

Slavery was a byline, as by the beginning of the civil war slavery was just as prevalent in the North as in the south. The North eventually used it as a political tool to ensure black people would join the Union army if they were promised their freedom, at the same time severely crippling the South by inciting slave revolts so that they could no longer afford to fight for independence.