Defend this, Christfags

>God is omnipotent, which means he knows all before it happens
>God creates universe, including an imperfect species, man, knowing full well most will not follow his arbitrary rules
>Punishes them for making decisions he knew they would make, since he made them that way.
That's like breeding two Shepards and beating the puppies because you didn't get a poodle.

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same goes for all powerful.

>God is all powerful, which means he can do anything
>Cant create something he cant do.
>Therefore not all powerful.

Although anyone with half a brain would know that even if there was a god with godlike powers he should certainly not be praised or followed.

Omniscient, not omnipotent, before some autistic fucker points out my typo

They go around hating on SJWs fot hating those with different viewpoints and making nonarguments, then do the same exact thing.

God gave us free will so we could decide whether or not to abide his laws

Not an argument. He knew we wouldnt.

see

How's that an argument? He doesn't give victims of rape and murder free will in being raped or murdered, thus he prioritizes the free will of the rapist and murderer over the free will of an innocent person, which can only mean he's not good.

He offers you power and you spit on Him for it.
He allows you to use your power as you see fit.
You only get punished when it's finally time for his kingdom to come to us.
You're supposed to be preparing for the rule of His son to show how grateful you are for the greatest opportunity the universe will ever know.
Don't be an ingrate. God and Christ are forgiving. It's easy enough to at least try. He's not demanding you win anything; just that you honestly try to follow His will.

Basically god is one of:

>omnipotent and good, not omniscient
>omipotent and omniscient, not good
>omniscient and good, not omnipotent

It's impossible to give a creature all three proprerties without contradiction.

Saged and hidden. If you really were curious about this, you would have read some theology, and not remained at this ignorant level.

I realized this contradiction when I was 12 or so, even after being raised fundamentalist

I was mad at first, then realized that it was simply more likely that most of the Bible was farcical

if there is a deity we probably cannot understand or define him in a shitty book

I thought Satan gave us free will?
When man was evicted from Eden, we belong to Satans realm now.

I'm not curious, but I have yet to see a logical argument. "Free Will" is not an argument, unless you concede that god is not omniscient - he knew sinners would sin from the getgo if he was.

You know, all the years I've been a christian, this is the only issue I find troubling. The only thing I can tell myself is that His will is too complex for us to understand.

I can accept that line of argument, but I would still argue that this makes god immoral.

God isn't your social worker faggot. You were made for purpose. Maybe that purpose was to burn in eternal hellfire for the greater glory of god.


Learn to calvinism.

This, if he exists I'd wager our flawed nature completes Him in a way. Which is why He created us.
Agnostic Atheist here who hates other atheists and views Christianity as superior.
I love God; the fact of whether he exists or not is irrelevant to me.
America and by extension all of Western culture is the result of 3 ingredients. The greatness of America essentially boils down to 3 things and it doesn't matter if you're an atheist or not, I'm strictly talking of formula; ingredients in a pot. Those 3 are thus:
Judeo-Christian Morality
Greco-Roman Philosophy ~and
Anglo-Saxon Law
I find that the humility to admit that I do indeed lack (because it is a lack) the faith is a personal flaw within my own heart. Even IF God definitely doesn't exist this is true. It is healthy for a society to have his ever present internal judge in ones mind. I always felt something... off about popular atheism and it was only after I got into politics, and later Bill Whittle, that I discovered why.
Christianity, at the end of the day, gets shit done. And has historically.
This "holds people back" line every hipster leftist likes to regurgitate is pure untruth.
Frankly, I'm at a point where I think I could defeat Richard Dawkins in a debate. (famous last words) I detect in the man an earnestness if, admittedly, also an arrogance that is so endemic in us atheists. As a millennial I certainly possessed it

>god knows everything before it happens
>omnipotent
>therefore can not know something before it happens and can create things beyond his control
>omnipotent therefor can make things which are both within and beyond his control and can both know and not know something before it happens
Why do you think you can understand god, user. It's impossible for anything other than god to understand god so just have faith that He's watching out for us.

So, my express purpose for existence is to suffer? And you defend that?

maybe suffering is ultimately good, sometimes.

I don't hate Christians. Just the bigoted ones, like the ones on Sup Forums who tell me I'm scum for not believing in their fairy tale.

A brick is designed to be put into walls, a hammer is designed to hammer in nails, and the damned are designed to burn in hell for all eternity. You don't have any sort of reason for existing outside of the design put on you by your creator. Much as the same for any other created object.


You can emo about it, but it won't really change much, now will it?

I refuse to accept that creating a being just for it to suffer is a moral thing.

what if you both have sinned and have not? what if reality is beyond your comprehension?

If i were to breed a dog just to torture it, you would call me an evil motherfucker. But because it's some magical being, you worship him out of fear.

Reality is most certainly beyond our comprehension, at least right now. With that argument, how would god be comprehensible?

Man wasn't created to die.

God had created a species before humans, angels.

Angels are beings of freewill, as are humans.

One Angel fell, and others with him.

God took creation to the next level. Beings created in his image. Example: the can be creative and design shit just like he can.

The fallen angel, a spirit being, tried to taint God's new creation. Lucifer, the fallen angel, tempted Eve and thus humankind was tainted with sin. "The wages of sin is death."

Yes, humankind was tainted and destined to die, but God has the last laugh.

He came to earth in the form of a man, being both God and man at the same time. He lived a perfect life and therefore was the only acceptable sacrifice to himself.

He died a horrible death on the cross, even though he was without sin. His blood shed is our redemption.

Humanity is lost and needs a savior, Jesus is that savior.

Earth is a testing ground for all souls, only those who choose him can live with him forever in eternity.

Yes OP, God is omnipotent. And he knew not everyone would choose him. But he gave them FREEWILL to make a CHOICE.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Don't think thats fair? You're still alive and you still have a chance to receive him OP.

The beauty of this is that once we die, and receive our perfect bodies, we will be higher in glory than the angels. We were created in God's image, and it was always God's intent that we live with him forever. But ultimately we ourselves are responsible for our eternal fate.

Will you choose God /pol?

(AMA if you have questions.)

The explanation they gave at my church was that God made you vulnerable to temptation and then planted you in a world filled with temptation and suffering, and then concealed Himself, all so that you would have to go out of your way by seeking Him out despite everything.
It's supposed to prove that you're worthy.
Even though they go on to say that Jesus was an open invitation for everyone to come to the kingdom of God, and all temptation comes from Satan.
You're not really supposed to think that hard about it. If you really dig into theology and the history of the books it all falls apart pretty fast.

read Plotinus. God is a passive force of good in the universe. I don't abide by the 3 omni's.

a. God didn't want robots, that's lame

b. God can do anything that can be done
God cannot do anything that cannot be done
simple logic, really
My LORD is not that of philosophers

Not sure if straw man or just lack of understanding.

God created man and gave him free will. What kind of all knowing, loving creator makes robot slaves?

If you had kids you could reflect on a time when you knew they would not listen to you and you had to watch them get hurt in order for them to learn on their own. I think this relates well.

Also, you realize that God gave his Son to pay for all our sins right? So that would mean anyone who refuses God's free gift is exercising their God given free will to reject God?

TLDR God's not a dick, you are. The only punishment you will receive is self inflicted more or less. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit Loves you user.

lol at this jerk off view of life. I'm sure you whine at the movies when your favorite character gets killed as well, and think of the director as some sort of EVIL MOTHERFUCKER

no, god created lucifer and all the angels with freewill. God is eternal. There is likely much more history to the existence of the universe than humans have recorded.

Amen and well said.

Thats not what i said at all.

You're not looking at the big picture.

I would let my kid touch the flame to learn their lesson, but would not let them play in traffic and die, something which has permanent consequences. I'd never let my kid do something that would result in permanent suffering. That is my argument. So unless you can somehow redeem yourself from hell, after you get there, I still see a problem.

he isn't
(hypothetically. I'm not so sure I even believe in god)

>he made them that way
Humans have free will, God does not make them act like faggots

From God's vantage point perhaps the death in traffic is not perm damage...

Just a thought.

You said suffering is ultimately good. god created man, some off whom to suffer. Therefore, god created man, some of whom, expressly to suffer.

Glad someone else here knows what's up. Amen

this

Christianity is a tool for Israeli control of America.

very true.

God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle.

My analogy means getting run over (dying) is hell. You can't come back from death, and according to the Bible, you can't come back from hell. Period.

Not one word of this is true.

Suffering breeds character. Ever run into an entitled little shit who never even been in a fight?

I never said someone was created only for the purpose of suffering.

Just that suffering itself is sometimes a good thing. Just like when you touch the stove top and feel pain.

I'm not saying suffering from time to time is a bad thing. But condemning someone to ETERNAL hellfire seems sadistic. It literally does not allow one to redeem themselves.

You're juggling absolutes, rather than regarding from from God's perspective -- a perspective that is infinitely just and loving. God is omnipotent and omniscient, yes, but His rules are not arbitrary.

Contemplate, these passages from scripture, which will point you towards the truth, and away from the tortured and sterile speculations that are fundamentally contrary to God, and thus will bring you no closer to God but only tend to drive you away from him.

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
-Jeremiah 29:11

Before the LORD the whole universe is as a grain from a balance
or a drop of morning dew come down upon the earth.

But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things;
and you overlook people's sins that they may repent.

For you love all things that are
and loathe nothing that you have made;
for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.

And how could a thing remain, unless you willed it;
or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?

But you spare all things, because they are yours,
O LORD and lover of souls,
for your imperishable spirit is in all things!

Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little,
warn them and remind them of the sins they are committing,
that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!
- Book of Wisdom 11:22-12:1

Note: The Book of Wisdom is one of the 'Deuterocanonical' books of the Old Testament that is found in the Catholic, but not in most Protestant Bibles.

For an explanation of the inclusion of these books in the Catholic biblical canon, see: catholic.com/quickquestions/did-the-church-add-the-deuterocanonical-books-to-the-bible-at-the-council-of-trent
and
catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-to-defend-the-deuterocanonicals

see

>Angels are beings of freewill, as are humans.
Only incorrect part

A lot of the shit you can think of as somehow god not being smart for allowing something he knew wouldn't be harmonious take place is what some would argue more the process of refinement/maturity allowing the gross state of mans own soul reach a higher level of oneness with the atemporal nature of reality not understood by man. There are a fair amount of debates that can take place that are fairly interesting however often they must be taken on the basis of understanding religious philosophy for these types of religions being less about fairy tales and more about an odd concept of protoscience and how man can develop in ways that will better our own species place in life.

Average fedora thinking...

>God is indeed omnipotent, he created the universe and thus the algorithms that set everything in motion here
>He created at first the un-perfect organism and he gave that un-perfect organism free will, in other words "I created you, but I don't want to take care of you because you must learn how to live by yourself, otherwise what's the point of creating a un-perfect organism".
>And that un-perfect organism falls into sin, by the hand of the devil and primal instincts led by confusion, fear and other evils

It's not God's fault at all that we are this shitty, it's merely our own doing and actions that makes us this way

Christianity is the result of the Jews rejecting their messiah. It was the Jews that cried out to Pilate to crucify him.

Thank the Lord they did. Now salvation in Christ (and the gift of our names being written in the BOOK OF LIFE) is extended to the Gentiles (non-jew).

No. My argument is eternal hellfire for not learning a lesson before death. You shouldn't torture a kid for not learning algebra before graduating. Admonish, maybe.

It is true. Theology boiled down so even an autistic adult like yourself could understand God's love for us.

You forgot the concept of free will. You are condemning yourself by not humbling yourself and accepting the only means of salvation available. Again its not like anyone in God's Kingdom is their because they earned it through being worthy.

All the Saints are repentant sinners. Furthermore, Hell, according to the bible is an unmaking. Its not some sort of Kingdom that Satan rules (that would be earth). Its not some place where demons reign and torture souls. Your concept of Hell is nowhere to be found in the Bible as you have described it.

Hell is perm separation from God and ultimately existence which springs from God.

Believer here, the paradox that I can't come to terms with is here
>. But ultimately we ourselves are responsible for our eternal fate.

So yes we do make a choice, but if everything that is good and from the spirit comes from god, then isn't it God that makes the choice for us? All we have to do is believe in Christ on the most primal level, akin to believing through thoughts that may or may not be honest/integral, fully aware. But if anything good comes from the Holy Spirit, then how do we take credit for making that choice to be with God? honest question here.

Other thing...

You have to understand that humans are "non-perfect organism that can be upgraded to the point of being perfect, at least what we understand by perfect, this word might have a deeper meaning in metaphysics"

this is why people call you christcucks

saved!

interesting thinking
what do you make of Job's perfection?

Some argue that hell can be considered a state of mind one takes on (depending upon your concept of what the afterlife is supposed to mean) that restricts them to vices as if they where principles of being. Like some of the buddhist thoughts that gluttons shall take on a fitting form in the afterlife. You are what you eat and your time here as a human characterizes your soul, once you no longer can take anything in(metaphorically) who you are is decided.

What, so if one does not become "worthy" before death, their consciousness just ceases to exist entirely, like before birth? If this is your view on it (though I doubt most christfags would agree) I don't see a particular issue, as it is more of a eugenics project that humanely puts the rejects down.

Because of God's sacrifice, NONE of us have to burn in hell. If we end up in hell, it's our own fault for rejecting the offer of salvation. Be glad that you live in the US, where the message of the gospel can be stumbles upon virtually everywhere. Going to hell means you trampled over the message and brushed aside Christ to jam yourself into the trapdoor of Sheol.

>WAAAAAHHHH I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT AN OMNISCIENT BEING IS THINKING
>WAAAAAHHHH I CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT AN OMNISCIENT BEING IS THINKING
>I'M HUMAN MY REASONING IS THEREFORE FLAWLESS AND NOT INSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR

bitch you can't even tell if the world around you is objectively real, and neither can I, what sense is there in discussing the existence of god, none of you are going to change your minds over a cancerous thread like this

I'm not gonna sit around here and participate in your degenerate circlejerk

besides, you know we towelmasters are gonna take over so buckle up you filthy heathens and stop being kafirs

>he also created athiests so we have something to laugh at and riddicule.

That's a completely different topic... but

There are exceptions, there is something called purgatory and limbo for a reason

Non-christian heroes and martyrs go there, they are more worthy of being saved than a lot of Christians that die taking it's sacraments, so they are not sent to hell, thy are instead "stored into these places ", waiting for the end of the world so they can finally ascend to heaven

At least that'sm what I remember from a theology course I took a few years ago

>If i were to breed a dog just to torture it
You're beginning to get the concept of "pets".

>there is something called purgatory
No there isn't, it's absolute heresy

So a mostly moral non believer can be saved, even if they do not repent?

This ain't 40k, buddy, there are like 100 different christian sects.

Yes it is true.


2 Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell1 and committed them to chains2 of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment.

You cannot sin unless you have freewill.

99 of them are heterodox

So you're going to defend a being torturing it's pets just because you're powerless to do anything?

Worthiness is simply accepting you need the blood of Christ to be saved. Another user explained it well The concept of Hell most folks imagine is really a pagan concept of Hades.

Another little read and understood concept in the Bible in general unread Christian circles is the reality that when you die you are dead and gone and you have no idea about anything. In fact no one is in hell and no one is in heaven right now. Everyone is sleeping a dreamless sleep of death. At some point, God will summon us all up. There will be 2 mass ressurections. The 1st one will be of all the souls which accepted Christ or otherwise "made it". These guys will be judged on how well they did and receive accolades and power. The 2nd group will be unrepentant sinners which died in their sins. They will be judged and then unmade. Eventually Lucifer himself and his band of rebels will likewise be unmade in the end of time. Read revelations. Its pretty confusing and intense stuff dealing with concepts outside of time/space as we understand it.

TLDR Atheists are sorta right. When you die your dead, at least for a while anyway.

The point is that an omnipotent god would create people knowing they would reject faith and therefore condemn them to hell from the start.

I wanna make sure I'm saved. What are the steps to take in order to "make it"

You question can be answered in a term called "the elect".

God already knows who will choose him. He knew before the world was created. Those destined to believe we're "elected" or predestined to go to heaven. Even though he already knew, we ourselves we're still given the choice.

Lets say you witness to someone, and they receive Christ. They we're predestined to go to heaven. However it was still God's will that you be saved and through his spirit and his will lead others to the salvation God already knew they would receive.

This is why is is so important that we heed the call to arms of the Great Commission. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Godspeed, I will see you soon in heaven.

Angels are servants but were influenced to disobey

Eh, I'll take my risks. I've accepted that death is the end, have no issue with doing nothing to prevent that.

Job was in no way perfect. He was a man of great faith, and loved God, but as the bible states: "There is not one righteous (besides God), no not one."

Creation exists to put on display the characteristics of God. One of the characteristics of God is forgiveness. Forgiveness would not be possible without sin.

I notice you didn't actually defend God here. You just continued to be evil along with him.

>Fictional evil is equal to real evil

No, your consciousness (actually your "soul") will live on forever. However hell is referred to as the second death. You will be aware in "the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Pretty scary!

Apparently not, my friend.

Just cause you know what someone will do, does not make you responsible for their actions. Free will is a double edged sword. You are responsible for your choices in so far as you have them. Some folks get a real shitty dice roll and I believe God gives them a break, however folks which much has been given, much will be expected.

The challenge, really is that you and I are mortals, trying to concieve of things which truly are beyond our ability to grasp and thus we revert to viewing things from our limited perspective and experiance and trying to shoe horn otherworldly ideas into understandable shapes and sizes when by definition we must reach beyond ourselves to even begin to comprehend the magnitude of how wrong headed our notions may in fact be.

My heartfelt advice is for you to pray to God. Tell Him the truth. Ask him to reveal Himself to you. If you pray for Him to show Himself to you diligently and honestly, you will be amazed at what happens.

Find me a passage in the bible that mentions purgatory.

PROTIP: you can't.

Its catholic heresy.

Look at younger brother Toguro. Younger brother Toguro used to be a human, until he was tempted by sin and eventually wished to become a demon. Once he became a demon he committed unspeakable crimes of evil to feed his demonic desires. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he also didn't seem to care.

Eventually he gets killed by Yusuke, and in the afterlife Koenma offered him a light punishment because he believed his beneficient deeds in life still outweighed the bad and he had more or less atoned for his sins as a demon.

Toguro still refused and asked to be sent to the last cycle of Hell, in which he must undergo 10,000 years of torture repeated for 10,000 cycles until his soul ceases to exist. On his way, he was confronted by Genkai's spirit, who attempted to persuade him not to go to Hell, the latter believing that Toguro had already suffered enough. Toguro asked Genkai to watch over Yusuke to ensure that he doesn't go down the same path that he did, and apologized to her for "being so much trouble" expressing his belief that they could have had a beautiful life if things had gone differently, before finally going to Hell.

Sinners are like toguro. When they die they will be shown the light of god and realize the weight of all their sins. They will be sent to hell not just because that is what god wants, but because once they are forced to confront the evil in their heart and their lives they will also realize they deserve to be punished.

In a way, God doesn't force people to hell because he hates them. God offers hell as an alternative to people who realize they don't deserve to be with god and choose to go that way. Hell is a choice, but in a way it's funny, because you make the choice somewhere in your life. Even Hitler realized at some point what he was doing was wrong, but instead of stopping and asking for forgiveness, that's when he decided to go to hell instead.

This does not contradict in any way what OP stated, so what OP stated still stands.

Merits and reprimands carry no meaning when God is simply the great clock maker. The only resolution is to take back all that is His.

Of course they have to repent or have some kind of remorse, if you are a barbaric ruler in 500 b. C. that loves his people and family but sends his hordes to kill and rape other tribes and never feel some kind of natural guilt then the weight of your sins might end up being heavier than your virtues.

I'll give you another example from real life

Anacleto Gonzales Flores:

He was an atheist man in Mexico during the "cristiada war", when the government started to prohibit Catholicism and escalated to the point of killing priests and normal catholic people thanks to president Plutarco Elías (((Calles))) (also founder of Mexico's central bank... oy vey).
He sided with the Cristeros (mexican catholic front) and fought against the government, defending the weak and protecting it's people, he eventually died in battle defending his ideals.

So iff you don't follow the rules he knew you wouldn't follow you suffer for eternity. Real nice.

fundamentalist have it right. start at one of those churches. any church thats part of the IFCA (fundamental churches of america.) can't go wrong with one of those.

So the TLDR version of this is basically that God made earthly life is one big awards ceremony, with "us" waiting to be self-actualized in Christ and being called to his podium one by one? That kind of makes sense to me now. thanks brother, God bless

My biggest sin is enjoying twinkass from time to time. I wouldn't even consider that immoral, anyways.

Amen

/thread

I doubt that highly. Your biggest sin is probably Pride/Rejecting God.

You can be forgiven for being a faggot. But if you never seek it due to pride your pretty fucked.