The Shape of Water

Why was he made into the "villain"?

He was the only patriotic American in the movie

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umm sweetie, he was a white male and that is NOT okay...

>Why was he made into the "villain"?
Was he? Besides few weird quirks he was just a suit on a ladder. His disdain for the fish came from his religious beliefs, understandably, and from the fact that the fish was indeed dangerous. His actions at the end were the actions of a man under high levels of stress and the general basically promised to 'unmake' him, so no wonder about that. Nothing inherently evil.

Allegory for Trump

You answered your own question, OP

He was:
-White
-Religious
-Patriotic

There's no greater monster in Hollywood.

There was nothing patriotic about him, or can you name some scene?

Christian, american, family-man, white, the ultimate evil of our time. Communists, fishmen, mutes, gays and blacks must unite to rid the world of this scourge.

Can't we just enjoy a movie about a mute fucking a fishman without this political shit?

but beastiality is a political topic

I think he was meant to represent both everything that makes america great and everything that makes america bad. He almost redeems himself but doesn't because murrica

He was clearly a piece of shit human being, stop pretending there's any agenda behind it brainlets

Del Taco really poured all the frustrations about W H I T E men in this character
he was
>straight
>#metoo predator
>catholic
>racist
>patriotic

you already answered your own question

He literally did nothing wrong.

Care to explain why?

You're genuinely retarded if you don't think that Del Toro's political ideology didn't influence his decision to make the character a white, Christian patriot

Del toro has publicly stated he sees "whiteness" and institutions as evil

>muh patriotism

the movie is inherently and explicitly political
vulture.com/2017/11/guillermo-del-toro-on-the-shape-of-waters-politics.html

Not when the movie's full of political shit.

I agree that he's a complete piece of shit and made to bem that way but if you think there's no agenda in this movie you're out of your mind

to be*

How can he be a piece of shit when he was the only likeable character?

So if the movie is about how bad divisive identity politics are, why did he make the bad guy an evil white Catholic conservative patriot?

man im sleepy
let's take a nap guys

This

At least gave he was given some decency desu. In a movie about the outcasts and losers, even the average straight white man had to be the odd one out in his group, he has to be the massive fuckup beta that failed to do his one job.

I also like that he wasn't some Saturday Morning White like most movies today are inclined to do. He was less "white men = evil" and more "toxic masculinity makes men do evil shit". And I'm talking about legit toxic masculinity, not the meme one where you can't be assertive, the one that existed before and put enormous pressure in men to be these anti-failure anti-camaraderie super-aggressive dudes.

You are a retard

He was Del Taco's projection about how evil white America was in the 60's. He was a Horsey political cartoon come to life.

>white patriotic American
OY GEVALT!

The cartoony white guy was the general/military old man desu, he felt straight out of a parody.

With Shannon's character we at least got a small bit of depth and some moments of character.

That's what I dislike in the movie, the guy is the heterosexual white family man living in a neat suburban area and I'm not even white but I could see the message being hamfisted. What was the point of showing him fucking his wife like a beast?

The "villain" of the movie is a straight white male who works for the government, has a home in suburbia, two kids and a wife. Obviously this man is evil to the core of his being and Michael Shannon plays him as a mustache twirling asshole because he wants to succeed in his job while the fish fucking slag is held up as a paragon of virtue because she thinks with her cunt instead of her fucking brain of which I see no evidence of her having one.

It's just that over the last decade or so I've seen this under current promoting the idea of our bodies being the avatars of our souls and that when two people love each other it doesn't matter if white or black, young or old, human or non-human.

It just feels likes this is being spearheaded by these degenerate SJW asswipes who are trying to normalize whatever fetish they have. They couldn't push for pedophilia with Call me By Your Name, after Spacey, so their next best bet was a movie about a woman fucking a fish that checked off all of their targets i.e. straight while males.

The villain of this movie is the type of man who helped to build modern civilization, for better or worse, and just like in real life we see women, minorities and gays working together to undermine his attempts to understand and control the world so that he could build a better tomorrow.

And for these crimes he must die just as our society crumbles in real life!!!FACT!!!

>He was less "white men = evil" and more "toxic masculinity makes men do evil shit". And I'm talking about legit toxic masculinity, not the meme one where you can't be assertive, the one that existed before and put enormous pressure in men to be these anti-failure anti-camaraderie super-aggressive dudes.
This

>legit toxic masculinity

>What was the point of showing him fucking his wife like a beast?

The "human" is raw and animalistic.

The "monster" is tender and loving.

It's pottery, you see.

he wasn't the villain, that's down to your interpretation. imo he didn't do much wrong

meanwhile that mute woman pretty much raped the fish guy

You forgot about white genocide Sup Forums

>it's a pol loses their fucking mind over a movie thread

>What was the point of showing him fucking his wife like a beast?
Helping me project myself into the role of his wife

he's not the villain. the villain is the insatiably horny white woman who frees a very dangerous creature solely for her sexual pleasure and then rapes said creature. she even puts her helpful black and gay friends in danger without a word of thanks. del toro is pretty redpilled - the film is reflective with what's going on in the world today, white women using minorities to push their own agendas and gain power from white men

when I heard he was cast I was expecting someone like Vidal

>embodiment of evil, genuinely scary
>despite that had some depth

instead we get someone paper thin and cartoony, who despite getting enough screentime doesn't feel like a real human.

you're a terrible person

elisa
>rapist
>can't speak because she spent her life gagging cock
>thinks so low of other humans that she considers them on the same level as fish
>ungrateful towards her minority friends
>works with communists literally plotting to destroy her country

richard
>family man
>does the difficult thing to protect his country
>hygienic - washes his hands before peeing and doesn't suck random fish cock

>he's a narcissist that judges other people by their wealth or job *scene when he's interrogating cleaners*
>he threatens a woman he's going to rape her
>he clearly gets off from torturing innocent, conscious creature that indicates very clearly psychopathic behaviour
>he's ignorant enough to have a creature just killed instead of examine
>no empathy
>egotistical, that indicates his desire for a woman to be silent, not resent
Now, he's white because of the fact that most of the actors are white, also in the film. Michael Shannon makes a great villian and he's white, not his fault. Now, the next part is very simple so you should't have problems with understanding it. Del Toro doesn't criticize religiousness or patriotism, he's criticizing people who excuse their shit and horrible behaviour as "religious" or "patriotic" although it has nothing to do with both of them. In the era movie takes place that was a common thing. It still is. And character played by Michael Shannon represents that.

If you played this movie to a 50s audience it would be considered a brutally dark horror movie in which Michael Shannon's character is the protagonist. You can interpret a political agenda from its context, but the film itself is made neutrally. It deserved best picture.

>without a word of thanks
kek

>>he threatens a woman he's going to rape her

When did that happen?

>but the film itself is made neutrally
no

lol triggered

>he's a narcissist that judges other people by their wealth or job *scene when he's interrogating cleaners*
and rightly so - the lowly cleaners turn out to be a communist animal rapist and a communist animal rapist sympathiser

>he threatens a woman he's going to rape her
meanwhile the woman actually rapes someone

>he clearly gets off from torturing innocent, conscious creature that indicates very clearly psychopathic behaviour
the same creature that bit his finger off and killed a cat

>he's ignorant enough to have a creature just killed instead of examine
they were examining it first

>no empathy
he's a family man, he clearly has empathy

>egotistical, that indicates his desire for a woman to be silent, not resent
you need to re-write this because those two things don't go together

Prove me wrong.

...

>more context
Try again.

This. People have this idiotic habit of seeing everything in black and white.

when he summoned Eliza to his office, told her that her silence gets him going and that he's wondering if she squeaks with a threatening tone

People like you don't get it. A film doesn't have to explicitly claim that religious people are evil, or that white men are entitled, or that patriotism is destructive, all it has to do is create a character who's evil, but also incidentally has those qualities. It's a cowardly way of criticizing those qualities by association, rather than actually grappling with the issues themselves. Shape of Water gets some leeway because it's a fairy tale, and fairy tales aren't especially known for their political sophistication, but it's still bullshit.

>Try again
you have made your mind up and will not accept anything as an answer
it's not my job to teach you how to read or obtain and utilize critical thinking
maybe the filmic medium isn't for you

>An evil space alien invades your planet
>Seduce it and have sex with it

Was it all an allegory for Adam and Eve?

>Shape of Water gets some leeway because it's a fairy tale, and fairy tales aren't especially known for their political sophistication, but it's still bullshit
hence the movies dishonesty
del toro will be able to hand wave away certain valid criticisms by saying
>it's just a fairy tale teehee
but at the same time he blatantly advertises it's trendy politics and how they relate to real life in every quote he can get

...

What's funny is the pie guy.
The entire movie he's kind, gentle and smart. The second he turns the fag down he becomes a mean caricature racist.

>brutally shot russian spies during height of cold war - no hesitation
>strived to live up to the american free market ideals through buying trendy cars
>protected american secrets at all costs

Only thing that was really wrong with him was his sadomasochistic sex kink. And is that really such a bad thing?

Why is Del Toro such an insufferably lefty? Mexicans I know aren't like that. They only vote Democrat because of immigration

>the same creature that bit his finger off and killed a cat
Beacuse it felt threatened. I wonder why? Michael's Shannon character was clearly a nice guy.
>and rightly so - the lowly cleaners turn out to be a communist animal rapist and a communist animal rapist sympathiser
>he's a family man
You just proved my point. You're a shit human being (if you're not joking) who hides his shit behaviour or views as being patriotic or being family man or sees nothing wrong with it. You're exactly the hypocritical person Del Toro criticise.

are you saying, if somebody thinks being a family man is good, then they are a piece of shit

>People like you don't get it
Yes because I'm not a brainlet who needs to desperately see his agenda about white genocide in the movie and can not comprehend something more subtle and clearly morally grey.

>he has a family so clearly he's got empathy
imagine being this naive

>subtle and clearly morally grey.
ok you got me

Probably something to do with torturing a semi sentient creature who benevolently shares it's healing powers with people. I like how conservatives have done shit like this for decades and are confused when they are portrayed as villains.

No, somebody who thinks Michael's Shannon character is a family man so there's no problem with him is a piece of shit. Although we could also argue if he really is a "family man".

Lot of assumptions there, buddy. No one said anything about white genocide. I'm Hispanic. Looks like Del Toro's strawmanning rubs off on the people who enjoy his work.

If you think The Shape of Water is subtle in its ideological signaling, then you should maybe take a break from this board and watch a few more movies.

>I like how conservatives have done shit like this for decades
experimenting on fantasy creatures with healing powers?

The family part wasn't shown so that they humanize him because he has family, it was just shown that DelTaco can attach "misogynist" to his character

>torturing a semi sentient creature who benevolently shares it's healing powers with people.
>I like how conservatives have done shit like this for decades
what the fuck are you talking about?

Anyone else bothered by the ending?
I thought it was kinda cheap that they both get to escape. it would've been a lot more impactful if one or both died.
But i think what bothers me the most is that the movie left me thinking: "ok but what's her life going to be like from now on?" she's going to be living in some dirty river and sewers eating raw fish and birds that they'll catch. wtf. there must come a time when she'll realize she's living with a monster in a less than ideal setting.

and all this movie because she couldnt bone a regular dude.

I have made up my mind, because I've seen the film myself and don't need the directors interpretation to tell me what to think. If you have nothing to back up your claim that the film itself is not neutral, just admit it. You're anonymous, no one will care to think any less of you.

The ending is an assumption by the gay dude. She could have died or get bored for all we know, but he prefers to believe they're in love and still together.
Because it's a fairytale.

It's my last time replaying to
(You) beacuse it's really tiresome to argue with such a retard. I didn't say
>The Shape of Water is subtle in its ideological signaling
I said that Michael's Shannon character is not simply
>white evil guy who's patriotic and religious beacuse there's any agenda against it
but he's a character that represents people who excuse their shit behaviour as religious or patriotic and that is a little bit more subtle than simply thinking he's evil because he's white or whatever.

>you have nothing to back up your claim that the film itself is not neutral
i already posted it and you brushed it aside
even in this post you say you disregard the author's intent

i hope you find peace, user, i really do
bless you
i forgive you
be positive like me, reject hate
good luck in life

Apparently he thinks the gays have the healing power of AIDS?

i hope that's the case. i thought his assumption was that they lived happily ever after, but i thought that they still get healed and whatnot.

I got happy for a second when he shot the fishman and deaf cunt, was thinking we were getting a happy ending.

She literally has guills by the end of the movie why do you think she dief

He peed without hands

Drumpf tards be like:

WOW of course liberal agenda movie would make a villain out of a white, Christian, patriotic male! MAGA!

*smacks face*

HE LITERALLY CAPTURED, TORTURED AND PLANNED TO DISSECT A BENEVOLENT CREATURE FOR GOOD BOY POINTS. HE ALSO WAS A MASSIVE CREEPY PERV AND WAS CLEARLY RACIST AT SEVERAL POINTS TO THE POC CHARACTER. ON TOP OF THAT HE WAS TOXIC AS HELL!

Y'all need to chill with that Sup Forums shit.

Everything after the creature jumps in the water with her is in the gay guy's head, I think.

he may be the greatest actor of this timeline, along with patrick stewart, mccovoy, sam rockwell, russel crow, and the great mel gibson.

Because the point of view was from the gay guy, how would have known what happened to Eliza when the fish took her into the water?

He is a family man who happens to be a honest, upstanding patriot who wants to serve America. Yes, there is nothing wrong with that, faggot.

No, I understood your point completely. You didn't seem to understand my rebuttal to that point, though. That character represents a particular archetypal straight, white, Christian man who worships the military. It's a strawman that intersectional leftists bring up whenever they talk about the patriarchy or late capitalism or whatever. It's not that Del Toro is saying that being a white Christian is inherently bad, it's that Del Toro is saying "these sorts of bad people have these sorts of qualities," which, through association, implies that the qualities themselves are part of what makes them bad. It's like the cliché of having a stupid, racist person in a movie speaking with a Southern accent. That cliché doesn't claim that being Southern makes you racist, but it does create an associative link between racism and that particular accent. That's exactly leftists like Del Toro do with their work.

>all these niggas not getting that Eliza was from the creature's race or a descendant from it
Nigga come on think about it. Found in a river, as a baby, with her throat slashed? She's like the Innsmouth folk that banged fish people and formed fishmen hybrids with gills, but she's the first of her kind so the gills aren't fully developed.
That's why the creature "transforms" her scars into gills. THINK ABOUT IT NIGGA THE CREATURE DOESN'T MAKE SHIT UP, HE JUST HEALS. SO HE HEALED HER CLOSED GILLS INTO FULLY-FORMED ONES.
THAT'S WHY SHE FEELS A CONNECTION TO HIM NIGGA.
THEY FROM THE SAME RACE
WAKE THE FUCK UP

I'd believe this if there was any hint towards this in the movie but there really wasn't.

>He is a family man who happens to be a honest, upstanding patriot who wants to serve America.
>he's a narcissist that judges other people by their wealth or job *scene when he's interrogating cleaners*
>he threatens a woman he's going to rape her
>he clearly gets off from torturing innocent, conscious creature that indicates very clearly psychopathic behaviour
>he's ignorant enough to have a creature just killed instead of examine
>no empathy
>egotistical, that indicates his desire for a woman to be silent, not resent
>racist towards black woman

This is the issue with Sup Forums. You can't make a hero out of a villain, but you can argue that Michael Shannon's villain was cliched, on the nose and uninteresting. I see a lot of folk online trying to form him into some sort of representation of 'white people' on a whole, which is a pretty racist assertion and it doesn't help by having folk going on about 'HE DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!'.

Why are you pol/tards latching on to the family man thing? He's clearly shown to resent his loving family and is contemplating an affair with the disabled cleaning woman. Guy's a piece of shit.

If he was a gay black artist, he'd still be a piece of shit for hating his family,planning an affair, and torturing a sapient lifeform for fun.

>these sorts of bad people have these sorts of qualities
Well fucking obviously, you want to potray a character that excuses his horrbile behaviour as patriotic and religious as an atheist and non-patriot? Those kind of people are very common, That kind of hypocrisy is still present. Nobody who's a simple religious guy or a patriot is going to be offended. Like me. Nobody after the movie is going to think that all white-religious people should die. And if they do, they are fucking idiots who also can't understand what movie is about and that's not Del Toro's fault. There're morons on both sides. Somebody who's offended can't comprehend this or feels offended because he knows he low-key represents familiar behaviour or familiar hypocrisy

This

this

Strange