Discuss

Discuss.

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I love Canada.

Really get the neurons firing

I pity you burgers

>muh freedom
>muh free markit
>muh meritocracy

As shit as Spain might be, a sick person has the right to live even if he's poor. He goes to the hospital, gets treated for free, gets meds for a very reasonable price.

The same idiots who say they're "pro life" will undoubtedly support neoconservatism so that the 1% has all the benefits and you, as a peasant, have to struggle like a pig and be buried in massive debt for life if you happen to get cancer.

Yeah don't you ever tax highly those plutocrat landlords -- their yacht is more important that somebody's right to live.

Funny shit is, many of those ultra rich psychopaths with no capacity to experience empathy or compassion, never made real efforts to get to a privileged position. Their families paid for elitist college, then got them straight into an excellent job via their own company or social networks.

The economic right-wing is for the so called 1% and all of you who support Clinton/Trump and not the Left are merely their puppets. No joke. You are exactly where you should be in order to be controlled.

WATCH MORE TV and never be critical or even revolt-- only poorfag losers do that lol!!!

nexium 24hr is not nexium. it's a prescription drug, 24hr is the lighter OTC version. also, chart was made in 2013, OTC nexium was released in 2014. it only took a simple google search to figure this out

Thank you for correcting the record!

>mislead people
>get called on it
>lmao CTR SHILL gtFO!!! leaFFFS!!!!

Blame obongocare

I'm confused are you calling yourself out for having a completely inaccurate unsourced chart from years ago?

Looks like I won leaf

im not OP you braindead jap

Are you retarded?

shut the fuck up you goddamn cuck, you're probably the retard that posts about how much they hate canada
i explained that the chart was from 2013 so the info on nexium is outdated but the idea is still correct and these braindead swamp dwellers are trying to tell me im wrong

...

...

our prescriptions are capped £8.50 the chart is wrong

wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/24440

Really gets the action potential initiated by a second messenger system before the reuptake of neurotransmitters.

I worked for a pharma company in switzerland for a while, and i can tell you that pharma companies are making crazy money. Its the best industry you can work in basically. They are paying themselves crazy salaries, have top notch offices and everything, make vacations on company's cost, and still end up with a net profit of around 20% of their revenue. Not even Google and Apple are making these kinds of profits.

>muh free markit
>implying the American health care system is even close to resembling a free market
Dankly memed.

I can assure you that no matter what kind of profession you have, work in a pharma company and your salary will gro two to three times. However you will see and have to be okay with what pharmas actually spend their money on. And that shit can cause depressions.

>they fell for the capitalism meme

I thought drugs were free in CA, UK, Spain & Netherlands?

Why do American doctors prescribe drugs such as Xanax, Adderall/Ritalin and Oxycodone at a higher rate than other countries?

The insurance companies pay them, and since they have single payer systems these countries are getting their drugs way, way cheaper, and yet all of them are still paying way too much. Everybody in the pharma industry is laughing their asses off over the dumb americans who are fighting tooth and nail for their right to drastically overpay for their medicine.

So is the dollar amount here the amount the insurance companies have to pay? Or the patient?

Its the cost of the drug, who exactly pays depends on insurance policies. And of course, somebody who doesnt have insurance is going to pay all of it alone. But i can tell you these prices are not correct, but the sentiment (americans paying way more than anybody else) is definetely true.

nigger youve never been to costco have you.

Thanks for subsidising our drug prices Americans!

It's what happens when your economy switches from supply-and-demand to what-can-the-market-bear?

This is not how it works. Everybody is paying too much. Pharmas always try to put the price as high as possible, and the american prizes are so high because the american market allows it.

>Celebrex (Celocoxibibbesomething)
>Nexium (Esomeprazole)
>Cymbalta (Duloxetine)
Are all off patent and have generics that are much cheaper than the originator brand. No need to pay full whack.

Most of the other drugs are low volume auto-immune ones. Humira, Enbrel, Copaxone etc. Not used by many people, and still expense because of those low volumes (still need to pay for all the research and trial costs, but recoup that from less consumers) .

Nexium = Esomeprazole
40mg = 24hrs
20mg = 12hrs

I dont understand why drugs would cost more in the US. Are Americans willing to pay more? Are there more costs associated with operating in the US?

I would expect that drug prices would be the same under any healthcare system (just with differences on who is footing the bill).

The Jews control the Pharma companies.

What's there to discuss?

Sage

jesus told me to make medicine expensive

you can say the components are the same but Nexium as referenced in the chart is NOT Nexium24hrs. one is OTC one is prescription. additionally, every source i've looked at warns to consult a doctor before switching from prescription to OTC. I conclude from that that their is a difference in effectiveness

Not really. You're paying for all the failed new medicines that don't come to market.

Trial costs are enormous, and many molecules developed don't pass trials or don't improve efficacy and fail to find a niche or gain market share.

And worst is when a product that has been on the market for several years is discovered in follow-up trials to cause problems (like Vioxx and that first generation of Cox-2 inhibators) and have to be taken off market with huge payouts to affected consumers.

You're basing your view on profit margins of the few molecules that do succeed, without taking into account the costs of all those that fail.

Once a molecule goes off patent, then any Indian factory can make it and sell it at fractions of a dollar. Half the off patent drugs in Australia now cost less than $2 and packaging and shipping must be a significant component of that. It's got to the point that generic drugs are so cheap here that many generic companies have withdrawan their products from the market, and we have had supply issues. Who really makes money from a dollar box of generic Atacand or Lipitor to ensure a steady supply?

Because in Europe there is single payer, or sometimes even flat out laws how much a drug is allowed to cost. They can not simply shift the weight onto the customer.

In America it goes more like this: A guy from the pharma company comes, meets with some guys from the insurance companies, bribes them and says take this prize, youre not going to pay for them, but the customer, so fuck them and lets get rich together.

Obamacare is failing because there is no incentive whatsoever for an insurance company to not keeping to fuck over the customers.

Trump has partially mentioned it, but US taxpayers subsidize European economies through NATO and other military spending, and price floors on drugs. It's why one of the US's thriving industries is medical tech and big/med/small pharma.

You can wave the price control wand and expect no effects on supply and demand.

You CAN'T wave the price control wand and expect no effects on supply and demand.

I mean, price controls have their own costs.

Reread my post. Ignore the brand name on the box, you're a fool if you buy "Nexium" anything rather than any generic esomeprazole.

40mg esomeprazole once a day, or 20mg esomeprazole twice a day.

Generic Pantoprazole (Somac) and other PPIs are much cheaper too and for nearly everyone will be just as effectice.

I hope you are making fun of "progressives" who sincerely think they are so intellectual when they are the dumbest people around.

The insurance companies pay those prices, not the consumer.

The consumer pays the insurance premiums. US citizens are in effect subsidizing drug prices for other countries.

Oh look, another useful idiot defending the poor, unfortunate billionaires.

I have worked in the tax of novartis and i can tell you the profits they are making is beyond ridiculous. It is true that not all drugs are profitable, but those get more than evend out by drugs that have a profit margin of hundreds or thousands of percent. I would argue that no industry in the world is making as much profit as the pharmas are doing. Okay, maybe with the exception of porn. :)

They get bonuses from the pharma companies or sponsored trips to conferences.

>America
>free market
Talk about delusion. Modern day America is closer to Communism than China.

Supply side research, and the resulting tech comes from wealthy people who can risk losing the entire investment.

Look at the real prices of the first cellular Motorola phones, you socialist turd.

lol.

Remember that everything is either rationed by price or by queuing (time). Having a low price for medicines means undersupply and regular stock shortages that may be unacceptable for a critical health product like medicines. You need medicine supply RIGHT NOW and inventory on hand the moment it is needed, you can't wait 6 weeks for the next container of cheap ones from India/China to come like with other products.

We see that in Australia now. Medicines refularly go out of supply for weeks and months. For example there is no Norfloxacin in Australia at the moment, and it has been out of stock for most of this year bar a few supply spurts that have been quickly used up.

>Heartburn medication isn't heartburn medication

I think this is where the international disconnect lies. You don't understand how cheap our over-the-counter shit is.

We can get virtually ANY drug from the shelf. Half of that requires a prescription anywhere else. In other word...

US...
>Access to every type of drug (in terms of effect) from the shelf

Other countries...
>Half of our counter-ready options. What you miss from your shelves requires a script, and thier power is equivalent to our 'extra strong' counter options. Our prescriptions are double the power of yours.

Tl;dr

We get low tier versions of EVERYTHING from the start. you only get half the variety.

Our mid tier stuff is publicly ready, and is your high tier.

Our high tier is more expensive in the short term, and is your 'emergency' variety. I get it right away by paying. You might not get it when you need it, cuz muh med lines.

>cellphones used to cost $4,000 so that means you should be happy you're being price-gouged
Gulag.

You are fantastically dumb.

Let me guess, there is a bias in terms of revenue from the US market? By design, a secret in plain sight. It's very hard to get away from supply and demand.

If you hate modern medicine developers so much, live in a world without their products, or don't use them.

If you hinder new product development you will freeze the development of new meds and lock in the current state of medicines as the final one.

If you want new meds, then be prepared to pay for them and to pay for the ones that fail when trying to develop new products to market.

You are yet to make a single point. Everything you've said so far can be summed up as "educate yourself."

Go back to the ideological backwater you crawled out of and don't come back until you're ready for actual debate.

the pharma company flat out tripled my wage, and i was making good money before that (i worked for Porsche before switching to Novartis). And the wage was not the only thing, all in all if you count things like paid vacations, a car provided by the company, etc. i was close to making 4 times of what i did at Porsche. At that is very normal. I know university profs in the development department who switched from making 90k to 350k a year. Not everybody is doing that because Pharmas have an extremely bad reputation with researchers. Working there is basically seen as selling your soul to the devil.

Price controls result in gluts or shortages. The open secret is US taxpayers subsidize militaries through NATO, and our price floors that make our drugs so expense provides another subsidy. It's why medical tech/pharma is so thriving in the US.

>implying price has anything to do with cost of production
Shut the fuck up you fucking moron. Price is set by supply and demand, not by cost of production. This is B A S I C economics. If you can't produce something cheaper than the price you can sell it at then you go out of business. It's not the market's job to subsidise your business out of charity.

>b-b-b-but this is an argument for expensive medicine, muh free market, if you can't afford to be sick you should die
What is the pharmaceutical benefits scheme that ensures some drug companies are given monopoly rights far in excess of a simple patent or other preferential treatment that ensures the market is anything but free?

The Australian government is for medicine what it was for cars. When Holden was around the taxpayer was footing a $7000 bill for every Holden manufactured - it's the same with medicine, except thanks to the PBS instead of that bill actually being relevant to the production of the car it's a literal handout to the medical companies who jack the prices up on their drugs and then double-dip when the government subsidises them through the PBS because people "can't afford them".

the thing is, very broadly speaking, it is more profitable in the US for doctors and insurers to side with the pharmas, than to side with the customers. So they do exactly that. In Europe and other places the market is heavily regulated and so insurers and medicals are not able to side with pharmas.

And then Novartis's golden goose drugs will go off-patent, and they will have nothing.

Their proft margins will disappear to dollar-a-box Indian generic manufacturers (like Apotex and Ranbaxy/Sunpharma), and Novartis will have to come to market with new and better medicines that they have developed and trialled or be eaten alive. Have seen it here with Pfizer with their Lipitor (Atorvastatin).

They only get into a position to make bug profits because they develop new drugs, pay for the trials, and bring them to market. Once they go off patent (which doesn't take long) then all the profit margin disappears.

> Implying Americans pay full price too.

A cap of £8.50 is called a co-pay.

Research Billy Tauzin and you'll have your answer.

muh war on drugs
you spend trillions in taxes just so your drugs can costs more

I know, it's an open secret. Germany for example, has price caps, while the US has price floors. In effect, you can import our research through free trade.

I like neither, though.

>Price controls result in gluts or shortages
Good thing I never advocated for price controls you fucking cretin. Read what is actually written and not what you want to read. You're just another blinkered ideologue.

US medicine is so expensive because the US government has created a regulatory framework where the drug companies can charge any price because the bill is footed by insurance companies - who just pass it on to the customer and so who pick and choose customers to ensure they remain profitable, ensuring some people are terminally without coverage - and government handouts. In a real free market nobody would charge $3,000 per pill because nobody would be able to afford that.

You're generally right, this is why the free market position will result in equity between employer and private bought plans and result in REAL insurance, not third party payer.

generics are basically piracy, and piracy exists in every industry. and like in every industry there are very effective methods to prevent piracy. it is not such a big problem as pharmas are making you believe. maybe can be compared to a rock singer who complains that illegal downloading is "ruining him" because hes only making 20 million a year instead of 30.

You're the one who made the bitching comment about calling out someone defending "billionaires."

>In effect, you can import our research through free trade

Novartis could double their r&d expenditures, half all the drug prizes, and still operate with a profit. The "america is financing the r&d for the world" is a myth. Pharmas have to spend a certain amount to stay in the market, and they wont spend more than that. Americans are not paying r&d, they are paying the nice vacations that we had, and my nice big house that i bought with my huge salary.

If you think the US regulatory framework just magically got fucked up by mysterious forces beyond our comprehension one day, you're an idiot. Somebody made it that way, and I'm willing to bet it was the guy who is raking in mad dollars off it and probably not the guy who is getting shafted by it. If it's making somebody very rich it's never a coincidence.

The US government is the tool with which wickedness is done, but it's not the source. Elites are all guilty, and they all need to hang. That means the corporate fatcats, the career politicians, the news media commentariat, the academic intelligentsia, the snake-oil peddling economists who allow themselves to be tools of these interests, the lawyers who defend them, and the lawmakers who wrote the laws that let that happen.

The entire top echelon of society needs to be put to the sword. Otherwise nothing will change. It's easy to sit here and point out all the retarded problems with US healthcare. They're so obvious even we can see them. They've existed for d e c a d e s. So why haven't they been fixed? To try and fail is one thing - that's a legitimate mistake - but nobody has even tried. It's either cowardice or malice, and both deserve death.

Germany and Switzerland are exceptions, especially Swiss, since it is a private mandate with upfront premiums.

You are setting a strawman, I'm not saying US consumers are subsidizing ALL of it, I am saying we have price controls all around, and that has an effect on supply and demand.

The FDA blocks competition for drug manufacturers, guaranteeing them a monopoly. Nothing else to discuss.

Part of it is the regulatory capture of the FDA, and the other part is the employer driven system that has insulated and fooled employees about the true cost of their insurance for 65 years.

You're projecting your spiritual life onto your economic one. If you want to assuage a guilty conscience, go to church and reconcile to God. Who fucking cares what your communist professors or friends think of a capitalist model of medicine development? Their worldvoew is morally flawed and wrong. What medicines did the Soviet Union or Cuba or China or any socialist system ever develop? Their system have no means to innovate new meds or bring them to market and would result in a permanent statis of medicine development.

Yes the period of time that on-patent meds who establish market share is a windfall, it is like winning a jackpot because it is winning against the odds. The costs are all the meds that didn't pass trials or didn't establish market share becuase they weren't as good.

The goose stops laying golden eggs once it goes off patent. The windfall ends then. And Novartis and other originators will have to develop new meds to keep your good times and staff perks rolling.

The prescription drug market in the US is the exact opposite of a free market.

Everyone else is paying $1 a pill for generic Gleevec. Teva have a generic for $7. You would have to be a fucking idiot or American to be paying $40 a pill.

You'd have to be a fucking idiot to have weak militaries (needing US subsidy), bloated welfare states that encourage dependent underclasses, and overall tax burdens and sovereign debt that leaves you no where else to go but reduce spending.

I smell anal pain. Are you paying a silly US-only price for something which is really cheap and made in a chemical works in China?

Too many Europeans are smug about their increased government spending, and don't know their ass from a whole in the ground on how everything gets paid. There is always a market price, and price controls can't magically make it go away.

>increased government spending

The topic at hand is the bizarre phenomenon where people in the US pay biblical sums of money for what are very inexpensive compounds, manufactured very cheaply.

>There is always a market price

People in the US are not paying the market price. They are paying Norwegian airport prices for stuff which is made in big sacks in a shithole in China, on a production line next to next to fish aesthetic. It is worth a small amount of money, then it gets imported in to the US and becomes worth $90,000 somehow.

>price controls

Nobody is suggesting that.

But that is a completely valid reason to disregard someone.

YES, we have price floors in the US and across all EU members there are price caps.

Why is it that the Netherlands are always top featured in lists when it comes to wasteful spending?

Also, I didn't know Northern Ireland seceded.

I've been prescribed most of those meds before.
I never had to pay more than $3.50 for 3 months worth.

It doesn't even cost that much without insurance. 90 days of cymbalta costs $12.50 without insurance

There are no "price controls", moron.

Where? It's not an official "price floor," but when the FDA coincidentally doesn't approve an epi-pen generic, and you have an insurance system that insulates employees from the true cost, you have a price floor in effect.

There are no price floors. You have companies which know they can charge whatever they like. People in the US are like Jews walled into a ghetto, being gouged and extorted.

>all EU members there are price caps

Nope. Anyone who pays 50 times more for the same stuff needs an MRI scan.

You know what I am talking about, the "negotiating" of drug prices, and

I'm a pharmacist. NexiumOTC is a different salt form from Rx Nexium. It is also less "effective". Esomeprazole in general is the current patient favorite in the US with a better side effect profile vs protonix. If you take a PPI for longer than 90 days then you have fallen for the pharmajew. Fix your fucking diet, use H2 antagonists (famotidine)/calcium antacids before your esophageal cells change shape and you get cancer from eating spicy cock all day.