So, regardless of what's your personal opinon on this book, the truth is that in 30 years...

So, regardless of what's your personal opinon on this book, the truth is that in 30 years, the superhero genre hasn't been able to move away from its shadow, nor Alan Moore's in general.
Do you think that there's more room for growing for the genre? Do you already see some sort of sign of a new era? Any new writers/artists that have the potential to be the new Moore (or any of those who shook up things before him, if you're a Moore hater)?

Honestly, I can't wait for the superhero movie fad to die to see what the industry does to stay alive. It might very well be the end of it, but it could also be a great chance for it to take some creative risks in order to salvage it financially.

Any thoughts/rants/whatever on the subject are welcomed.

Watchmen is literally the worst thing that happened to capes, Moore is a hack that doesnt understand the genre.

I'm more inclined to believe you're a retard who doesn't get Moore's comics unless you elaborate on this.

I mean, have you even read his superhero comics? Stuff like Supreme, or his ABC stuff.

Come on, this could be an interesting discussion to have.

t. unrelevant crazy british hobo magician

>Room to grow
Yes
>Super Hero movie fad
Going strong for 17 years

>Creative risks
Deadpool and Logan

>Moore
>Doesn't understand the genre
There's not liking the guy's woek or disagreeing with it, and there's acting retarded out of blind anger.
I mean, even if you vehemently disagrees with what Moore has to say about ir or do with it, how can you even glancr at hid work and not see that he has both understanding and autistic minute knowledge about both the superhero genre and the comic industry history?

It's really only been going this strong for about 5 years, since the first Avengers movie.

>Yes
Care to say in which direction is it growing, or you forsee it to go?

>Going strong for 17 years
I know, but it will eventually die down. Westerns were big for about 50 years too.
Still, I don't really wanna discuss movies but what the comics would do without them and how can they evolve next.

>Deadpool and Logan
I'm talking about comics (and none of those movies were risky at a creative level, come on)

Sadly, I knew those kinda answers would pop up rather quickly, even though I thought I made perfectly clear that I'm interested in seeing comics move away from Moore's influence, but hopefully in a progressive and not regressive way.

Do you assume another genre will replace capeshit or do you genuinely believe that there will be an equal diversity of genres and niche interests?

Batman 1989 says NO U

I think (actually, it's more hope than anything else) that capes will stay around but won't be as big a percentage of the market as they are now.

How diminished of a presence are you imagining?

I can't say real numbers, mostly because I'm not American so I don't really know how the market works over there. But I can see creator driven stuff like Image's gaining up on the IP farm market for the studios trying to get new ideas for movies once superheroes aren't as hot as they are now. And I doubt the industry is strong enough for the big two to remain as big without the movie money.

But again, as a non-American, I'd be interested in having a well elaborated argument from someone with a bit more accurate knowledge.

The story is real nice, but what always blows me away is the architecture of the story.

>what always blows me away is the architecture of the story
That's the best thing about it, and most of Moore comics. The way they're built is so good that it's not only pleasing from an aesthethic point of view, but they also help to bring the main message across, and sometimes even in a more effective manner than the story itself.
Moore at his best is the perfect ballance of style and substance.

Can you at least pretend to know what you're talking about?

I unironically think Tom King is the new Alan Moore. He is honestly very intelligent (went to Columbia University) and his writing reflects that. Other than his Batman, everything he has written is absolute gold. He wrote the best Green Lantern story in years as a tie-in for a shit event

I haven't read anything by him that seems even remotely game changing.

Shit floats but this just clogged up my toilet.

Bumping for potentially interesting replies.

Not this one, of course.

One last attempt at getting something interesting going on.

On a technical and narrative level, as a comic book, yes, Watchmen is pretty much unsurpassed.

But as a SUPERHERO story, I'd say it's pretty much the opposite, since Watchmen represents the end of the superhero ideal.

Reddit is that way.

I think we moved away from Watchmen a long time back. The current trend is "comics are supposed to be silly and stupid", light hearted and blockbusterish.
We don't see character driven Cape comics like they had in the 90s, anymore.
I think comics will just move to GN format soon.

>We don't see character driven Cape comics like they had in the 90s, anymore.

Explain further. This seems like nonsense.

I have always loved superheroes. The idea that a man can fly, punch through concrete, be something greater than his physical form. It's optimism in its purest form, the idea that we are capable or in some way MEANT to transcend the normal and claim our place among the gods.

However, superhero comics and by extent superheroes are a corporate product. Perhaps the most corporate of products. And they seem to have some slavish devotion to "canon," meaning that the creation of superhero stories will be forever stifled by numerous corporate allegiances. As such, I don't think it is possible to create a GOOD long-running title as part of a contiguous universe. It's just not meant to be. I would not wish the job of writing for Marvel or DC (without absolute creative control, of course) on my worst enemy. Even when writers DO have a great degree of control, all their vision and good ideas amount to a minor tweak in a massive, ugly, broken machine. It's a Sisyphean task that should probably not be undertaken, full stop. I would like to see comics and superheroes go a very different direction, separately if need be.

Interesting point, but I still see most comics who actually try to be "different" to still be under Watchmen's influence. What you mentioned is a more regressive/conservative trend that many times follows up to any progressive/revolutionary move.
What I'm wondering is if superhero comics are gonna find a new place to go, or will they just retreat into a smaller and more specific niche and simply cater to its fanbase once the movies stop, or at least, slow down and comics need to stand on their own.

I'm not really talking about the quality of Watchmen, but what it meant to superhero comics and when will they definitely move away from it. If you want some clickbait style phrase, I'd ask "where is the next Watchmen going to come from?".

>I would like to see comics and superheroes go a very different direction, separately if need be.
This is actually kinda what I see happening in the future. Once superhero movies stop being so profitable, they'll probably start milking other comic genres (stuff like the ones that are published on Image and such), and so, superhero comics will need something as big as what the British invasion spearheaded by Moore meant back in the 80s, or become an even more niche thing than what they are now and keep catering to a small loyal fanbase.

What is sad is that whether creation owned or corporate, the US comic book industry seems to be mostly movie pitches or licensed stuff. Only a very small amount of indies seem to do comics for comics sake, as it happens in Europe and other places.

Final bump before going to bed

See stuff like Johns' comics, which are actually influential on the genre. They are devoid of any character driven stories. See anything from Rebirth; Nothing is character driven. Character driven stuff is called edgy today. There's less and less stuff like Miller's Daredevil, Doom Patrol, Spectre, Shade and lots more.

If Moore got to use the Charlton characters than a lot less people would talk about this book.
Maybe it would get a DC animated movie around this time, but it wouldn't be as big of a touchstone.

The industry hasn't moved away from it's shadow because they haven't learned anything from it.

It is almost as if the single most important thing a person could do is use original characters.
Change their looks a little and give them a new name.
You can have their origin be whatever you want and you can have them do whatever you want.

He made a liberated comicbook.
Tell me, are you still allowed to make a comic like that?
A comic with rape and gruesome murder that ends with millions of people on the planet killed by fake vagina aliens?

You make a variant cover reference to The Killing Joke or a variant cover of Spider-woman with a big cherry red ass and fanny flusted snowflakes flip their flapjack titties.

Every established character should be retired unless written by the people who created them.
Everything else is just officially approved fanfiction.
But nobody sees it that way.
They feel invested in characters.
People recognize the names and that makes them sell better.

Companies own IP instead of the artists.
Instead of being inspired, many take to corporately sanctioned plagiarism.
After batman ripped off the Shadow, Batman should have been ripped off by someone else, and so on, and so on, evolving though different characters by different people with an original take.

What if Sun Wukong was a powerful space alien and one of the last of his kind like Superman, sent to earth as a baby and went on an adventure to get what is basically the Genie's Lamp from Aladdin?

Not a very original idea, but a whole lot more entertaining than virtue signaling with half a century old characters.

You can't have a new Alan Moore because not even image would publish a comic like Watchmen.

What's your definition of the term "character-driven"?

>the 90's
>good

I want you to look in the mirror and repeat this: My taste is bad and I am the cancer that caused the crash

The 90's, character driven? My ass. The 90's was an edgy phase and the beginning of the crossover mega event shit

Grant Morrison has his big magnum opus left in him.

He has always been the heir to the throne.

user there's no reason to get upset over being unable to use your eyes and find the things that made the 90s worthwhile.

>Deadpool and Logan
They are creative risks for comicbook movie but they are quite standard for movie in general.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Not him but, a lot of comic stories right now are like case of the week episode of tv show. They resolve around a crime/something strange and don't really involve a change in the characterization of the main characters (generally cops).

A problem arise, the heroes solve it. There is some emotionnal/private moments between the characters but it's more for drama' sake than related to the problem and how they are changed by what happened.

I think you can find a bit of character driven in smaller publisher like Image. Like in Invincible, most important characters grow, in good or bad, along the story. Some arc having minor impact on who they are and some arc, major impact.

DUDE, WHAT IF SUPERHEROES WERE REAL, ALSO HAMFISTED SYMBOLISM LMAO

I agree with this.

I also think that the next step in comic evolution should come from indie creator-owned characters. Not necessarily original, but like user said "change their looks and give them a new name". The important thing is that creators be allowed to take risk and modernize the concept of a super-hero. I think there already are some comics out there pushing the envelope.

The biggest problem, or challenge here is the industry and profitability. Big names. Safer bets for publishers.

The current trend of capes needs to die first (as in: stop being profitable) so that those with the money feel the need to look outside of the franchises and invest elsewhere.

>They feel invested in characters.
>People recognize the names and that makes them sell better.

When will this stop? Not anytime soon, I think.

He already made Flex Mentallo tho, which in 4 issues gets across everything he then tried to say about comics and superheroes in his Batman run, Final Crisis, Multiversity et al

this book was ahead of its time. I think part of the reason comics haven't been able to get out from under its shadow, is because it was incredibly dense and did so much so well that it's hard to even understand it.

I've been studying it for years. My absolute favorite book of all time. I have a really hard time imagining a work that could surpass it, and my own criticisms of the work are really hard to put words to.

I have a good feeling that we'll get a new revival over the next decade or two. But it'll probably be in a form that doesn't even exist yet, but is on the edge of a lot of people's minds.

I really didn't like Logan. I don't see how anybody considers a Wolverine movie a creative risk, considering the two that preceded it were horrible to mediocre, and they broke even on name alone.

>The 90's was an edgy phase and the beginning of the crossover mega event shit

Well, there was two sides of Watchmen's and Swamp Thing's influence: those who used it as a springboard to tell more complex stories, and even create original characters, like it happened with Vertigo and some stuff like The Maxx, and those that simply used it as some sort of justification to up the level of sex & violence on mainstream comics, thinking that's what makes something "adult". Sadly, the last one prevailed and we still have it nowadays, while the other wound down and now even Image comics releases mostly movie/tv show pitches disguised as comics.

He should get to it and stop writing the same fucking story over and over again then.

This is not a BvS thread.

And this thread isn't even to discuss Watchmen itself, but I can see from your post that your reading skills are not really the best.

I also partially agree with this. In a way, I think it's great that there are characters like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man and Wonder Woman that kinda work like archetypes for people to tell stories throughout time, and to see how they evolve is also a way to see how society evolves. Kinda like classic mythology, but in pop culture. The problem is when they're owned by corporations, and they are the ones who say what they are and aren't.
The thing is that at different times in history, these companies couldn't give less of a shit about what a character did or didn't do, and therefore, writers could really make them grow and take them in new directions. For this to happen again, I think superhero films need to die down, which would take comics out of WB/Disney's spotlight and writers can create again instead of simply working as life support systems.
And I like superhero comics, and the genre in general but it's been too stagnant for way too long. It's pretty fucking boring nowadays, except for the occasional well written comic here and there (which also usually involves some lesser known character the company doesn't really give a shit about).

way to take the bait

What indie comics are pushing the envelope to you right now.

Whats your main takeaway from all the studying of the book youve made?
What kind of comic do you think exists inghe edge of peoples mind?

Stop it. Really, read more comics. There are tons of good runs that are part of a contiguous universe.

Superhero comics suck. Don't read superhero comics.

reddit blindly praises Moore, this guy's a retard but 100% Sup Forumsntrarian

Could you name one in the past 10 years?

>Watchmen is to comics as Doom was to videogames

I read many comics that are not superhero ones. I'm just wondering if the American industry will break free from Moore's influence or just slowly drift back to where it was before.

(and before any sperg comes off again with how Moore is overrated, I'm singling him out because he's obviously the biggest name, and the one that led the revolution American comics went through in the 80s and early 90s. I'm very well aware there were others around).

anybody have that "sneeds feed and seed" edit

Watchmen was Wolfenstein
DKR was Doom

Wrong. Doom 2 was good.