Where does John Byrne and his works stand among the greats, Sup Forums?

Where does John Byrne and his works stand among the greats, Sup Forums?

Other urls found in this thread:

scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/7153622.html
youtube.com/watch?v=GlN3oEjMpUQ
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Byrne#Pedophilia
twitter.com/johnbyrnesays?lang=en
twitter.com/JohnByrneSays/status/909068579018084353
comicvine.gamespot.com/alejandro-jodorowsky/4040-47011/issues-cover/
byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12952&PN=2&TPN=1
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

In the trash can, mostly.

He's a pretty bad writer with a few flukes.

Low. He doesn't qualify among the greats, by the way.

A few gems and tons of garbage.

One of the best. James Robison is certified garbage.

But Starman is better than anything Byrne did

She Hulk, FF, X-Men, Man of Steel, first two volumes of Generations>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else he did

He's being a shit on purpose, user.

His Alpha Flight isn't bad

>Where does John Byrne and his works stand
He needs to have a seat over there ::points::

>context
scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/7153622.html

Alpha Flight is a lot of fun, but I may be biased because I am Canadian, sorry.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with your rankings. (X-men>FF>She-Hulk>Man of Steel>Alpha Flight>Generations>>>>>>etc.)

I was pretty surprised when reading through Claremont's X-Men that Byrne contributed to only 40 issues or so and not even all of the most memorable stories at that.

He did co-plot and is the best artist by far but I thought they had a Lee / Kirby 100+ issue F4 style epic but that was just Claremont.

Doesn't that volume basically undo itself in the end?

John Byrne was a fantastic creator who, like Dave Sim, should have never discovered the internet

Yup, his work on the X-Men was under 40 issues, BUT, it's still one of the greatest collaborations in comic book history. The writing, and art, and especially the characterizations, still hold up very well today.

>scams_daily

>Doesn't that volume basically undo itself in the end?
They mindwiped everyone so no one would remember what happened or anyone's secret identities. That's why she says, "no one is going to call the cops" because no one will remember him playing tonsil hocky with a 14 year old.

He's better than his reputation here would imply.

>playing tonsil hocky with a 14 year old
That's on the old side for John.

>Who, like Dave Sim, should have never gone crazy

Fixed that for you.
The internet is incidental to their mental collapses.

I'm always sort of amazed at these comic book guys who love these amazing, heroic characters so much, but behave in ways that would disgust said characters.

Like, does Byrne think Superman would approve of him? Does Dan Slott think Spider-Man would want to hang out?

Dave Sim went crazy (mental breakdown) before the Internet was even available in Canada.

Sim went crazy. Byrne's been a ridiculous asshole from day one.

He somehow managed to keep making pretty good stuff for over 5 years after his mind had forsaken him. It's pretty impressive and horrifying.

>Doesn't that volume basically undo itself in the end?
They have their memories erased. Image related is another "technically they didn't" but once you notice the pattern it's hard no to see it for what it is.

Okay, that's fair. I mean to say Byrne losing his ability to contain his extreme autism and pedophilia is incidental to becoming entrenched in his forum.

Also Dave seems like he's mellowing the fuck out and regaining some rationality in his old age.

They actually put young Sue having a crush on college age Reed in the unrealsed Roger Corman film.

he's basically singlehandedly responsible for the modern take on Superman, doing away with a bunch of the silly OP garbage and creating Lex Luthor as we know him today.

He made Superman a more grounded, human hero and the character has benefited enormously from it. For that alone he should be respected.

Yeah. Sim's been on the mend for a while. At this rate he might not even end up as a hermit living in a shack in the woods.

>creating Lex Luthor as we know him today.
NOT AT ALL.

Byrne's Luthor was LITERALLY Donald Trump. A guy that made schemes to get into women's pants. Not even a scientist, just a rich guy with scientists on his payroll.

The only thing that stuck was LexCorp. Everything else was changed.

youtube.com/watch?v=GlN3oEjMpUQ

I have enormous respect for Byrne's accomplishments in comics. It's just that the man himself is contemptible.

somehow how perved Claremont. He is truely /ourguy/

He also wrote that infamous scene of Sue making out with Namor while poor Reed was lost in the Negative Zone.

>that one where luthor had a butch lesbian strip young lois and then he took a riding crop to her ass and then jerked off to the security video of her being stripped while she fingered her mouth
Wow.

(You) must be 18+ to post on Sup Forums

This

It didn't help either that when the internet came out Bryne & several of his peers never grasped that unlike flinging shit in the letter section of the CBG anything written on the internet stayed up forever.

I love the 70s'80's stuff, not a fan of most of the 90's-00's but his little random minis over the past couple of years have been solid. His hand drawn & fumetti Trek stuff has been on point.

I like how he made Superman born in the USA and not some filthy immigrant refugee. Good man.

Century 25: Love in the Time of Apocalypse — On Apokolips, Darkseid is revived by Desaad and other members of his elite guard. On Earth, Supergirl Blue is in love with Green Lantern Ator, but since her body is stuck at the physical age of 11, Ator is uncomfortable with the relationship. Several other Green Lanterns find the buried robot body of Lex Luthor, who goes on a rampage. While the Green Lanterns fight Luthor, Supergirl Blue uses gold Kryptonite to remove her powers, allowing her to age. Ator manages to stop Luthor, but Luthor uploads his mind into the city's computer, leaving Ator with an atomic bomb about to detonate. Ator contains the explosion with his power ring, but is trapped inside with the radiation. The now powerless Supergirl Blue must stand by and watch Ator die.

>It's just that the man himself is contemptible.
how so?

This. Also: someone giving him his own site and forum/echo chamber ( which is indexed by google and anyone can read if not post on ) didn't do him any favors.

...

I think the bit with children makes a big difference.

I recall a pedophile from my Usenet days. He worked on a weather station in Alaska because he knew if he was close to children eventually he'd start convincing himself Sue wanted him.

It's actually even more gross than it sounds when you see other things he's had to say:


Pedophiles are almost certainly "born that way". Again, we go to evolutionary conditioning. Seek the youngest, strongest, most healthy, for breeding purposes. A sure (or as sure as it gets) way to guarantee the survival of your genes. Pedophilia also brings along a big heaping helping of learned responses, however. In a society like ours, where "normal" sex is considered by many to be filthy and disgusting, "abnormal" sex is of course even moreso. "Abnormal" in this case meaning anything—even simple physical attraction—that is not "age-appropriate", heterosexual, and strictly for procreation. Preferably missionary position. Thus, any confused individual who finds himself attracted to young girls is likely to find himself attracted to increasingly younger girls, as part of his pattern of self-loathing. So much emotional torment—in victims and victimizers—would surely be set aside if our society was sexually liberated enough to even be able to say "Sure, it's okay to be attracted to eleven year olds. Just don't do anything about it!"

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Byrne#Pedophilia

He's also got some things to say about ... quite a bit of other stuff on that page.

Also image related which was just ... wow.

I mean he's right in so far as allowing them to irrevocably alter their bodies is generally a bad idea. It tends to just cause more distress.

I prefer Cockrum, but I know I'm in the minority.

He's an undiagnosed autist, I'd be more surprised if he understood The Onion was parody.

Deranged Crank/Old Man Yelling at Kids to Get Off His Lawn.


His Alpha Flight was decent, his collabs with Claremont in the 70s/80s were decent but not solely dependent on him, getting Superman and letting him headcanon the fuck out of it maybe drove him insane because almost everything he's done since 1990 is pretty pure WTF.

I'm a big Byrne fan, but I'm with you.

Fuck off with your comparisons to Sim. Byrne isn't half as talented as Sim with one hand tied behind.

Thoughts on Next Men?

They had strengths. Cockrum was better for the epic shit and the cosmic shit but no one draws the X-Men hanging around the mansion casually shooting the shit and the soap opera stuff as well as Byrne

Decent at best. His shulkie was his best work. FF is overrated af. But Sup Forums is full of plebs who worship mediocre writers like Johns and Waid, so they put Byrne on a pedestal as well.

>implying he's wrong
If gays and trannies are born that way then pedos are. I don't see what's controversial about this besides gays and trannies (who are now socially acceptable in the west) not wanting to be tarred by association to pedos (who are not socially acceptable).

He's not saying it's fine to fuck kids, it's obviously not. But you're attracted to what you're attracted to and the idea of trying to "cure" pedos with therapy is just as harmful and retarded as trying to cure gays. They're always going to be pedos. The important thing is that they understand it's bad to molest kids.

Remember that time he had a camera shoved up a teenager's vagina?
This image is Next Men

Who do you figure had a bigger cheese pizza collection, Byrne or Gerard Jones?

This is as much a red flag as Arisia.

what the hell? this Sup Forumstumblr here. What's wrong with sexual deviants now? I bet you fucks don't like Jodorowsky

>as much a red flag as Arisia

I'll admit, I didn't see it coming. It's obvious in hindsight, but I just didn't twig.

He drew Proteus, Dark Phoenix, the introduction of Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost/the Hellfire Club and Days of Future Past. Basically all of the most memorable storylines. Except the Brood saga

>12 years old
>already pregnant
Yeesh.

Also, drawn as someone who looks significantly younger than a 12 year old. That seems to be a thing with Byrne, drawing very young looking girls but adding text saying "she's a teenager." Like, look at Sue up there.

This is a twitter account that is sometimes funny. This guy has been cataloguing stuff that Byrne posts on his forums.
twitter.com/johnbyrnesays?lang=en

Sorry I don't fit your tastes, Johnny, but your Spider-Man absolutely belongs in a dumpster alongside Nextmen.

Well said.

care to cite a study that proves that in the majority of cases it causes more distress?

Care to cite a source for the opposite?

>If gays and trannies are born that way then pedos are
>analogy is a form of proof!
uh, no

>Remember that time he had a camera shoved up a teenager's vagina?
John was really ahead of his time.

>burden of the proof

>I bet you fucks don't like Jodorowsky
I did until one of his "comic books" was storytimed here and it turned into a rambling incoherent mess
He needs to go back to not making Dune

>the onus isn't on meeeeee
care to come back when you're 18+

>drawing very young looking girls but adding text saying "she's a teenager." Like, look at Sue up there.

Also Blue Supergirl here:
Only there she's stated to be an "adult" who's body is stuck at ... 11 years old.

As an artist, I think he's underrated. The whole 90s scene owes a shitload to him.

As a writer, he's mostly important to big two continuity fags. His work doesn't really raise above "ok" on its own merits.

Byrne is only as good as the person he's working with. He's got a writer like Claremont or a force like Shooter to filter his ideas? It's pretty good. He has Terry Austin inking him? Great art. None of that? He's total shit.

>echo chamber
you weren't there the day he ranted about how Captain Carrot should be biologically accurate and the entire forum dogpiled on him to the point of calling him a humorless asshole before he deleted the thread

For those not aware, Byrnerobotics is the only forum that requires users register with their legal names and users aren't unlocked to post until he's seen a scan or photocopy of legal ID.

In retrospect I can understand better now his frantic need to see ID.

>He's also got some things to say about ... quite a bit of other stuff on that page.

>on Gaiman:
The best place to start, however, no matter what the context, is not by saying “the creator didn’t get it right.” That’s the worst kind of hubris. I have been pilloried for my work on Superman, Spider-Man, Doom Patrol, and in the early days even FF and X-Men, yet I have never once said the creators of those series/characters “didn’t get it right.” It disgusts me not only to read Gaiman saying this—about Jack Kirby of all people!—but to see the cartwheels people are willing to turn in order to make his words seem other than what they are. Apparently, dissing one of the greatest talents this industry has produced is okay, as long as you’re on the Approved List. Next, how Eisner screwed up the Spirit, and Lee and Ditko on Spider-Man—what the heck were they thinking?? Maybe you should keep in mind, then, that the only person who knows if a creator “got it right” is the creator himself. Unless Kirby told Gaiman he felt he didn’t “get it right” on The Eternals, it’s pretty f***ing arrogant of Gaiman to make such a statement. “Kirby didn’t get it right, and I probably won’t either” sound like it should read “I don’t want to do this series.”

>Very next quote:
As I have noted elsewhere, and with the clarity of hindsight, I think Stan and Jack made a mistake when they decided to make Thor the “real” Thor.

which one? Cause The Incal, Metabarons, Son of the Gun, The Borgias are all masterpieces. Megalex not so much

>None of that? He's total shit
In his heyday he introduced gay characters at DC and Marvel with actual flaws where their being fruits wasn't the beginning and end of their characterization or held out as virtue signaling pity magnets. Maggie Sawyer and Northstar were written well by him and those who came afterward.

Today they'd be LOOK WE HAVE A FAG LOOK LOOK LOOK NOW IT'S TIME FOR A STORY WHERE THEY'RE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST

>. “Kirby didn’t get it right, and I probably won’t either”
When did Gaiman say this? All I get on google is this Byrne quote but nothing directly from Gaiman. It certainly doesn't sound like something Gaiman would say.

>he ranted about how Captain Carrot should be biologically accurate and the entire forum dogpiled on him to the point of calling him a humorless asshole before he deleted the thread
How many permabans were handed out that day, I wonder?

Eh? Dave Sim was considered crazy by a lot of people long before he started using the internet. I don't think the internet really changed much about him, unless there's something you can point to.

In Byrne's case the internet definitely didn't help. At least when he did Next Men he could have time to think through his responses for his letters column. The internet just got full unleashed Byrne and it might've harmed fan perception of him; it also happens to overlap with the time when he was doing comics that more people were complaining about but didn't have enough fans to make up for it.

And the moment when he stopped being exclusive only to AOL boards was when more people were aware of his posts online and overlapped with sales declines in his work.

There are some modern stats in this twitter thread:
twitter.com/JohnByrneSays/status/909068579018084353
>NotJB: ...they are down to 576 members, was over 1800 when I started on Twitter. So far in 2017, they have only got 32 new members..
>NotJB: ...of which, only 7 have posted. There are 173 members with less than 100 posts and 397 with less than 1000. On the other end...
>NotJB: ...there are 14 members with over 10000 posts but one of them is John with 108031 posts. Of the 576 members, 4 are women...

I've always had a hard time getting into Cockrum's art. Personally I've always preferred JRJr and Silvestri as far as the big Claremont era artists go.

Paul Smith to an extent too because he draws cute grills

comicvine.gamespot.com/alejandro-jodorowsky/4040-47011/issues-cover/
Huh, I don't see it here. It was something about a middle-aged academician who couldn't stop trying to fuck his students who got dragged into a scheme involving birthing the next messiah and it doesn't look like any of these so I'm obviously a faggot with a terrible memory and I apologize

It's not just that they have their memories erased, it's that the events of the ending erased 99% of Generations 3. The only part that was still canon is the Batman & Robin in 2008 England

That has got to be in the top 10 of Byrne's most autistic retcons.

>No no the birthing matrix means he's technically a US citizen!
>Superman is a space alien, not an illegal alien!

Why are Sandman and Norman Osborn cousins John? What did this add to the Marvel universe? Michael Jordan and Avery Brooks both have the same haircut, are they related?

none considering he would have lost 90% of his forum regulars

>In retrospect I can understand better now his frantic need to see ID.


There is totally a hidden board that he is purposefully keeping from the FBI isnt there?

Probably in an interview when he was launching the Eternals book he did with JRJr.

>I've always had a hard time getting into Cockrum's art. Personally I've always preferred JRJr and Silvestri as far as the big Claremont era artists go.
Cockrum was a great fantasy and adventure artist who excelled when Claremont indulged that (esp. considering they co-created Kurt for Legion). But Claremont understood that X-Men suffered when he used it as his personal Starjammers book and eventually stopped that.

>Paul Smith to an extent too because he draws cute grills
Unfortunately he also draws cute guys because that's his only speed.

Was this Madwoman of the Sacred Heart?

>middle-aged academician who couldn't stop trying to fuck his students who got dragged into a scheme involving birthing the next messiah
no, you are probably remembering correctly cause that Jodor in a nutshell. I haven't read that one but it sounds exactly like what he would write.

Son of the Gun is a man who fuck his mother and then finds out she is his mother, so he tries first goes through debauchery with his mother, fucking and stealing and pimping her off until he gets disgusted with everything, leaves the civilized world and becomes a psuedo jesus character who gets crucified. It's fucking brilliant. So yeah, it sounds very much Jodor

>unrealsed
Roger shot and edited the entire film, user, but it was buried due it only being made for contractual obligations. No seriously while the makeup effects and costumes are decent, the sfx were literally done on a Macintosh II using paint programs.

This was quoted in the thread where the other quote comes from:

I don't think that Jack got it quite right, and I'm also sure that I won't get it any "righter" than Jack did. But you do feel that it's not one of his most thought-out works. The fact that this stuff has taken thirty years to be reprinted is an indication that it's not one of those Kirby things that everybody has been waiting for, in the same way that everybody wanted the Fourth World stuff to get reprinted. People have forgotten this stuff.

What is interesting though, is how good it is, and how much cool, weird stuff there is there. I definitely don't feel that this is Kirby not on the top of his game because he was getting old, I feel that it reads more like Kirby's not on top of his game because they tied one hand behind his back, and weren't quite letting him be "Kirby." It's a different kind of thing as a result.

One of the things that fascinates me, is that whenever I get stuck on a plot point on Eternals, I go back and look at it, and it's there. It'll be in a line of dialogue or a small scene that makes you realize he knew far more about these characters than ever made it on to the page. I'm actually far more impressed by the Eternals now since I've started two write it than I was when I first read it through and was getting ready to write it. I though, initially, that there was all this stuff that Jack hadn't figured out, but now I know - he had it all figured out.

There's a newsarama article linked that it's pulled from, but the link is dead.

Thread in question ( byrne quote comes from page 2, this quote is page one ):
byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12952&PN=2&TPN=1

> never once /ss/
John's got a special hell waiting for him

Dave Sim's bullshit started in the Cerebus comics themselves, not in the internet.

this is what happens when you pull quotes out of context. Gaiman was praising Kirby. And it's very well known that Kirby was having problems with editors later in his career, he couldn't do the things he wanted to

>Madwoman of the Sacred Heart
YESSS! it was shit, and I say this as someone relatively open to noncapeshit euro/southamerican comics.

No seriously never use this book to try to introduce newfags to broaden their horizons guys. It's less 'veiculo' than 'culo'.

So, I guess Byrne just got triggered by that line and didn't read the rest of the thing, because it's nothing but praise of the original Kirby work, even if it's flawed.

>It's less 'veiculo' than 'culo'
Kek, nice.