So let's say, I don't know, hypothetically Legacy was a complete dud and actively hurt Marvel's current ongoings...

So let's say, I don't know, hypothetically Legacy was a complete dud and actively hurt Marvel's current ongoings. What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?

I dunno, I will probably never buy a Big 2 comic again. They're just not very good.

They could put at a nice book with some junior characters (x-kids, Academy kids, Initiative recruits, various other teens/young adults who have been thrown away), and have them fight crime, go on adventures and hang out without being killed for drama 24/7. And without them becoming mouthpieces for someone's political bullshit.

>What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?
Well if you're going to take away the best option, uh...

I'm cool with small scale firings. Bendis, Waid, Amanat, and Spencer would suffice. Breevort and Alonso if you're generous.

>lot of love here for Slott
>gained new customers for ASM but lost customers for everything else
Sup Forums BTFO!

>Spencer
He doesn't even work for Marvel anymore. Secret Empire was his last comic for them, barring a short back-up in Not Brand Echh.

>Gwenpool 15% lower

nice

Nothing. They need to find good writers who actually read comics growing up.

Maybe they can do something early next year when they can grab some cast-offs after some exclusives end and DC re-ups with some and lets go of others. But for now, nothing. Marvel doesn't have the editorial structure to make many good books, they don't have the talent to elevate existing books or create good new ones, and their scouting and talent development system is a fucking joke.

marvel will never win me back. I might read some x-books (read, not buy), but I will never admit it on Sup Forums

Sorry, but pretty much nothing other than a large-scale creative shake-up could really convince me that Marvel's getting their act together.

And by 'shake-up', I don't mean 'Just give Bendis/Aaron/Slott different books. I mean actually hiring talented writers and tasking them with writing something compelling.

daily blowjobs from the worlds best kamala cosplayer

What a ridiculous concept

Probably just normies coming into a random comic shop they see and picking up a random Spider-Man comic and buying it because of trendy homecoming

>What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?
Fire everyone who currently works there.

>implying it shouldn't just be Mia Khalifa in costume.

I dunno, I've actually liked every Legacy book I've picked up so far.

I don't know if Marvel will be able to recover, actually. They've spent so much good will with event fatigue and generally kicking the hive when they want to drum up sales.

>lots of love here for Slott
I highly doubt that. The love is for Amazing Spider-Man. It’s the name brand.

You might be asking “well what about Chip Zdarsky’s Spider-Man? Why isn’t that book selling?” Well that's because it’s written by Chip Zdarsky.

How does a #1 Falcon drops 20% from CA:SW, absolutely shambolic numbers.

user, for as many people that hate Slott, there's plenty who love him because "Peter isn't a loser anymore!"

That and even then, the increase in readers is by no means substantial for what's supposed to be their flagship title. It's still utterly tanking in sales in comparison to how it was doing in 2015 and 2016, and I think this can be primarily blamed on audience burnout from Slott's writing (the $10 anniversary issue in April managed to hit 100k in sales, so people are still interested in ASM, just not in Slott). Going by the reactions I've seen for it in various other forums like Reddit and CBR, the overall reception to it was somewhat frosty (apparently people didn't really appreciate Slott's ruthlessly cynical shitting on Peter), so I suspect we'll see another drop in readers in November.

Which is ironic, since #789 had probably the most ruthless shitting on Peter that Slott's done since Superior Spider-Man.

I mean, I would say that Slott has ruthlessly been shitting on Spider-Man ever since they gave him full control of the title with Big Time, but that's just me.

True, for a guy who's basically the biggest Spider-Man autist on the planet, he really has a pathological hatred of Peter Parker and his entire supporting cast.

He's like the reverse of Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan.

They should honestly just give him another Superior Spider-Man book with clone Ock, he's the only character Slott seems legitimately interested in writing.

They should just fire him

The complete and total gutting of Peter's support cast has been the worst thing about Slott's run. You hit the nail on the head.

Marvel will never do that. Hell, probably one of the reasons why they're keeping him on ASM is because they're scared he'll jump ship to DC if they do.

As much as we shit on him, the guy did manage to salvage ASM after the disastrous OMD and BND era, where it was bleeding readers at an even faster rate than it is now, and even with the reader drop, ASM is still the best-selling ongoing they have (which admittedly isn't saying much since their only ongoings that're breaking 60k in sales are all Star Wars related).

If not even Marvel wants him, why would DC care about him?

Switch every single writer around and put them on a different book.

And Slott specifically gets put on a new FF book because goddammit I want to see that.

>Secret Empire was his last comic for them
What title do you see DC putting him on

Not just the gutting; the active demonizing of his supporting cast is also to blame.

Like, I think people could've gotten over MJ leaving Pete, but every time she makes a guest appearance in ASM these days just feels like Slott poking at a scab.

CrUSAder?

One more big name writer that DC has and Marvel doesn't?

From what I've seen of Slott's non-ASM, the guy can actually write fairly well. You just need to give him something that doesn't involve Spider-Man and he can probably make something good of it.

>outside of large scale firings
Large scale firings.

>pathological hatred of Peter Parker and his entire supporting cast
he wouldn't fucking dare

Because the comic book industry is nepotism incarnate. It's all friends hiring friends. That's how Tynion and Bennet got jobs. Slott and Johns are friends, you bet your ass Slott could get a job at DC. He's written for them before already.

He's burned out. Superior should've been his end, and if not that then Spiderverse. He's just been putting out the shittiest arcs since then and is stuck going in circles. It's way past time someone new got put on the book.

b-but this can't be true. Brevoort said Marvel were number 1.

Marvel isnt done with Spencer. He’s far too left-leaning to fire. Mark my words, they’ll announce another high profile book with Spencer’s nane on it very soon.

Oh no doubt. Pretty much the only reasons he's still on the book are stubborn pride, false belief that he's still 'got it', and most likely just the narcissistic desire to be the first Spider-Man writer to have a decade on the book. He pretty much hit his creative peak with the title with Superior, and everything since then has just been an extended mediocre filler arc where everyone's waiting for the next writer to show up.

Here's a thought. They should do a massive event that no one wants to read, use all their titles as tie-ins to force people to buy books they don't want, raise their prices, hire a bunch of high schoolers with no life experience to write their stories and bitch online and turn their whole line up into YA titles, force a ton of books no one wants on retailers so retailers absolutely hate them, and make oodles of non-functional lenticular covers. That's a start.

But seriously... the problem at Marvel right now is that they are making bad books with shitty writing and shitty art. At the core, that's it. It isn't diversity. If they publish a Mister Miracle or a White Knight, they are back in the game. So how do you publish a truly good book? You hire truly good writers, people who have lived long enough that they have something unique to say and value TELLING A STORY more than winning a twitter war. That's it. Boom. Done. I don't care what they look like, what race or gender or identity they are. Dump the bad writers. Hire the good writers.

He's never going back there after they cancelled his really poorly selling series and rejected his Supergirl pitch. He's been publicly bitching about them ever since

>If they publish a Mister Miracle or a White Knight, they are back in the game
Tom kings vision didn't save them.

Valid point.

>What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?

It's going to be really hard for them now. Rebirth worked because it was sincere and we could all see that. Marvel did their own rebirth without any o that sincerity. It's not like they can just pull Rebirth attempt now because fans will be skeptical even if they are sincere this next time.

They'd need a total shakeup, I can't see myself ever really going back to marvel without getting a 100% reset with an all new staff.

That's because they weren't smart enough to snag King with an exclusivity deal before DC did.

This' a core issue with Marvel, really: keeping the shit writers and letting the talent slip through their fingers.

you left out "burned every bridge imaginable just by shitposting about DC on twitter nonstop"

maybe he can make another series for Image but I see him more likely to do some political moonbat bullshit a few faggots try to sell here as redpilled.

This, I was reading some Marvel stuff out of habit until a little over a year ago, but I kind of realized how done with the stale medium I was.

I thought about going back to DC but after checking out Rebirth it’s just more of the shit I’ve grown to hate about cape comics, endlessly jerking off the status quo and referencing old works, never allowing anything to really evolve or progress.

The MCU is so much better than the comics too, so for now I get my cape fix from there. Otherwise...I’m done with this shit “genre”, and I can’t wait for it to die.

>all new all different staff
Featuring Nad Ttols, Sidnem Nairb, and Aaron Jasons.

My man! Add mindbroken Emma Frost available for public use, either pilloried or chained/stuck in a wall, and I'd be down.

why don´t they do something simply fun?
Not about some trending problem on society, not about racism or diversity. Not about something serious like a murder with ramifications or social issues.

Just 2 or 3 superheroes teaming up and punching a villain, with a few jokes and some reference to old comics but without implicit reference to nowadays problems.

They have like 60 comics that reference in some way shitty thing that happen every day around the world, why not 1 single comic just focused on having fun?
Can be crazy dude in space fighting aliens or classic superhero fighting a classic villain but without any implicit moral lesson.

>What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?
Nothing. Burn everything down. Start clean.

I really think it's too late.

They had their chance to pivot & the missed it. They could have apologized and they didn't.

Only an overt Disney PURGE could being readers back now. Mind you? These people cannot & should not be shipped off to other departments or subsidiaries of Marvel/Disney. They need to be terminated with a no-rehire status.

Because they do that every now and then with stuff like Monster Unleashed and it just turns out incredibly boring and underwhelming. The problem is that the writers are so overworked, burnt out, and/or talentless that it doesn't matter what premise you put them on.

BUT Sup Forums TOLD ME GWENPOOL IS POPULAR! THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING, BROS

This

>They had their chance to pivot & the missed it. They could have apologized and they didn't.
I for the life of me do not understand how Marvel could be so bad at PR.

When people were mad at DC with DCYou they largely kept their head down because they believed in what they were doing from an artistic standpoint and put out good books. But they listened to the complaints, said sorry and did what any company should do - provide their cuatomers with a product they want and then came Rebirth.

With Marvel they went completely the opposite route - you should like what we're publishing because we know best. If you don't it's because you're wrong. You want a Rebirth, here's one in appearance only.

It's crazy that they have such an antagonistic relationship with their customers.

Because Ike purged most of the old-guard editorial back in 2011. Most of what's left are newbies and the sycophantic yes-men.

And to be honest, Twitter is a PR nightmare for most companies in general. A lot of people seem to fundamentally not get that it's a public platform from which you are subject to intense scrutiny from the public with each and every statement you make. The video game industry has much the same issue with random devs mouthing off and saying stuff they really shouldn't which just makes their employers look bad.

>he's the only character Slott seems legitimately interested in writing
I was about to say that Slott may as well pitch an AXIS-era Spider-Man, but then I realized that "Superior Spider-Man" probably led to AXIS in the first place.

She's one of Slott's OCs, so she's not going anywhere as long as he has anything to say about it.

I'd actually almost like to see her get hospitalized or get deadened in an event, and people other than Spider-Man being like "Who's the shorty?" She hasn't shown up anywhere outside of ASM, has she?

Another issue is Marvel stealing talent from DC like Lemire and Soule while they're at their peak potential, then working them to the bone and extracting a small fraction of their potential.

I feel like Marvel feels the need to play catch-up with DC, yet are going about it the wrong way.
In a way, it's like what happened with Apple after Steve Jobs died. Apple was the powerhouse of innovation up until his death; a few years afterwards, Jobs' leftover notes dried up and now Apple is more or less doing what other tech companies are doing with their products, but with more expensive parts. It's not true innovation.

White Knight isn't good

Marvel hasn't had any good leadership for the better of thirty years now.

Jim Shooter was the last good head of Marvel, and ever since they shot him out into Valiant they've been fucking up since. First they treat the artists so bad Image becomes a thing, then create the Issue #1 Bubble, kill off every single comic distributor except Diamond and kill off most comic shops, after also causing the push from newsstands and grocery stores to comic shops in the first place, and making the market fucking dead in the water for everyone.

How the fuck has no one jumped on the mail order train yet, that shit seems like the perfect solution.

Make a proper X-Men/Fantastic 4 series. Richards is way too underused, even though he's like #2 on the Marvel smartness scale.

>I feel like Marvel feels the need to play catch-up with DC, yet are going about it the wrong way.
I don't think that's the case.

I think with the success of the movies and now being part of Disney, Marvel feels like the successes of those companies are somehow indicative that they themselves can do no wrong since they're part of the same corporate umbrella. Hence why they're so quick to tout what they're doing and are also quick to disparage anyone who says otherwise and also belittle the competition.

As you can see from Brevoort's and other's tweets it's full on hubris.

>outside of large scale firings
Large scale hiring of good writers, artists, and editors to balance out all the people that should be fired.

Which is funny, considering Marvel Comics doesn't see a cent from the MCU. Disney and Marvel Films sees all that profit. Marvel Entertainment, the comics division, isn't in charge of the movies, only the TV shows. AKA, the worst parts of the MCU.

Nothing, except massive layoffs

I think this should be the official image for new Marvel threads.

>Bring Jim Shooter back.
>Have him get everyone together
>Tell them bluntly that they aren't going to get away with doing what they want to anymore without running it by him first
>There's a twitter black-out effective immediately. Nobody says anything on there that hasn't been run by the PR department first
>Tells Bendis up-front that he has until the end of the week to figure out a major character flaw for Riri to incorporate in to her next story arc, or else he's fired
>Tell Slott he's on a social media blackout, no more needling the fans, and that he's got until the end of the year to pitch a Spider-Man story to justify him staying on ASM, or else he's fired
>Tell Aaron he's got until March of next year to either kill Jane off or make her a new hero and get regular Thor back, or else he's fired.
>Every book selling under 20k has until the end of March next year to start selling more, or else they're cancelled and the writers fired.

Large scale hirings.
Of editors. Impartial, apolitical, highly skilled editors.

>a major character flaw for Riri
Bendis only has to fix Riri? What about Miles?

And what does Shooter plan to do about Waid and "Champions"?

Im still waiting for proper fanart of Murder Machine helping Marvel

>Legacy
>Still has Miles, NuThor, Kamala and Cho Hulk

What in the goddamn

>outside of large scale firings
This is the only solution though. They've hired so many shitty writers and artists who couldn't create a good comic if their lives were on the line.

>Miles is handed to somebody else, he's just too much of a pet character for Bendis to write well anymore.
>Take him off all the team books and focus on making him what they've been wanting Peter to be for years; high-school student who has to struggle with balancing his school-life with super-heroics
>Knock him down a peg or two, maybe remove his venom blast ability since it's just too broken.
>Take Waid off Champions, just give him something else. He's just not making it work and his attempts to tap in to 'young people' issues are just cringeworthy.

While I'm at it
>Guggenheim has until the end of the month to pitch him a story for X-Men Gold that isn't just another retread of an X-Men story that's been done over a dozen times over in the past, or else he's fired.

On one hand I hate the current state of Marvel. On the other, I love the fact that anyone that's semi-famous can get a mini there right now.

I'm not giving Marvel a chance until they replace Slott on ASM.
I don't mind shaking up the status quo and doing things like Superior and the like, but he is just not a good writer at all and can't execute with anything he does.

I've been told by co that Kamala is fine, when she's in her own book.

But is Legacy not all about the old characters? Not the new set put in by Marvel in the current runs?

To be fair, this' been a thing with both of the Big Two for a fair while now.

Remember when they were stumbling over themselves to give Kevin fucking Smith stuff to write?

legacy is lip service, but this has nothing to do with any individual character

Behaviors are going to have to change. A lot of the people that tuned out tuned out due to the behavior of the writers on twitter and the displacement of heroes.

You'd need to fix those.

You also need BETTER writers. Actually good comic book writers, not mediocre writers on high profile books or the same ol sames writing the same ol way in everybody (i.g. Bendis)

I don't know, large scale firings are what got us here in the first place. Editorial was gutted around when Disney bought them.
Something comparable over at DC would be when WB started to pay attention to what properties they owned, and then changed the Vertigo contracts to give themselves first rights to adaptations and stuff. That caused people to flee to Image

>hypothetically

lol

Mass firings is what Marvel needs.

>When people were mad at DC with DCYou

I must be easy to please because I liked a lot of books in the DCYou phase. Why was everybody so mad?

there is no way back except firings. they know it and its just a matter of time.

What does this have to do with the topic. Go start a thread about being smarmy faggots who don't liking Big 2 comics but want everyone to know. This is specifically a thread about one of the Big 2 and avenues of improvement. You're smarmy latte sipping air of superiority has virtually no worth here other than to inflate a pathetically and incessantly vain egos.

You don't like the funny books? Fuck off to another thread and talk about your dyke zynes with pretty pictures.

Nope. Everyone has to go. Clean house.

The stories weren't bad or even worse than the New 52, it was just too much not muh at once. Not muh Supes, not muh Bats, not muh Hal.

Revamping various characters at once (alongside a couple fo replacements). Also, the whole "no continuity" thing, where some books acknowledged the new status quo while others ignored it and went on with basic New52 content.

>What could Marvel do to win you back outside of large scale firings?

Why are you going to go and limit the options like that?

How about, rather than FIRINGS, hirings of good established writers I can trust? I'll be buying Platoon in trade after all.

>At the core, that's it. It isn't diversity.

But the reason they are bad is because they are made diversity first, quality second. The same reason why christian comics, cartoons and games also usually suck, because their priorities are not in creating quality entertainment, but making sure the message within is clear. When you talk about bad Marvel quality, you are talking about the forced diversity because it is tied to it.

Marvel writers should be given a single scenario and a question. A script is flawed because an important message about diversity in the middle of it is hurting its pacing and structure. Removing the message entirely would make the script good. Would they remove it? If they say no in any case whatsoever, they are bad writers.

I hear you. Asking for cheap political points instead of telling a good story

is bad writing. Marvel's been diverse for decades. That's not the issue. You're right that their present TOTAL F-ING OBSESSION with race and gender and identity has made them lose sight of their craft.

Too many revamps. The sales tanked for most of the books, and that lead to the pivot to Rebirth. Those twitter accounts like in OP were bitching about DC back then, but people seem to have forgotten that.

>Another issue is Marvel stealing talent from DC like Lemire and Soule while they're at their peak potential, then working them to the bone and extracting a small fraction of their potential.

I really would like to know what the fuck happened here. Soule and Lemire ARE good writers, they still do good shit, it's just that almost all of their exclusive work under Marvel was steaming trash.

And it's specifically their exclusive stuff, Soule's pre-exclusive Marvel work like Thunderbolts was good.

>outside of large scale firings
Even large scale firings wouldn't bring me back.

Obviously Amanat, Brevoort, and Alonso all need to go. It's fucking obvious at this point that these are the people who have steered Marvel into this mess, are so screwed up they don't even realize what they've done to the company, while making the rapport with fans as bad as possible.

But you could fire all of these people and I wouldn't even care. I hate Marvel now and want their print comics to die as an example to the industry. I don't care if half the comic shops in the country close as a result of this (they won't; new Marvel floppies aren't THAT important), but I believe that the most important thing for everyone would be to see the example of total failure and cancellation of all Marvel floppy comics.

I don't want them to reform themselves.
I don't want them to apologize (they won't).
I want them to die, because history needs to see that the consequence of their practices should be utter oblivion.

But failing that I'd check out X-Men if they brought back Morrison.

DCYou WAS good, but unfortunately they marketed it poorly and a lot of people thought it was another reboot, and bitched accordingly.

Also, too many status quo shifts at once, though most were alright.

So, no firings?

Nothing.

At a minimum they'd need to commit to a wholesale shift in their narrative. Total unpopular opinion. the JMS Spidey before JMS had to accommodate Bendis and Millar creatively was the best the title had been David Michelline left.

>A same old day. May discovers Peter made a deal with Mephisto. She tells him how bitterly disappointed she is. Peter and the spider family fight a Mephisto power secret six in a contest. The prize, Miles soul. Team Spidey wins and the book resets.