Comics and cartoons are shit

Comics and cartoons are shit.

You've probably automatically disregarded the above sentence as a blatant and shallow attempt at trolling, but it's true. It's objectively true. I'm not saying this out of smugness, I'm saying it out of despair.

Take at look at this image. It's a compiled shot of the front half of the Sup Forums catalog. I haven't manipulated it in any way.
I want you to circle in red every thread discussing cartoon series created during this year that isn't a cash-in on some decade old franchise. I'm talking about fresh new IP's.
Take your time.

If that doesn't quantify a failed medium, then what does?

And let's talk about comics. Here is the list of the best selling American comics last month:
>comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-09.html
Now, let's go through the top 100 comics and list everything that isn't superheroes or part of a larger multimedia franchise:
>74 - Saga
That's it. And for the record, Saga got boring 10 issues in, but I digress.
Let's be honest, this is incredibly pathetic.

And the artistic failure of American comics is reflected in the comic discussion here on Sup Forums. We never properly discuss comics, we only talk about adaptions, political/social drama, Marvel vs DC or cute girls/boys. We almost never actually discuss a comic's story, unless it's to complain about how a writer "isn't doing the character justice".
I think that in our heart of hearts we all know it's all vapid sensationalist nerd nonsense — you didn't actually think Wolverine would stay stuck in that adamantium forever, did you?

I have to ask, why is animation dead, and why are comics so shit? Is it our fault as consumers? Who is to blame?

Other urls found in this thread:

kissmanga.com/Manga/Tongari-Booshi-no-Atorie
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Also, I'd like to say that there is an exception in the form of webcomics. If you visit into a Camp Weedonwantcha thread you'll see people talking about the characters, story and direction the comic might take. The same is true for Unsounded, and a small handful of other interesting webcomics.
Unfortunately, this handful of good webcomics are a statistical anomaly, and webcomics are irrelevant in the world of published comics, which is why I didn't mention them in the OP.

I also avoided making any comparisons to manga and anime, because I know many of you hate them on principle.
That being said, I'd like to draw your attention to an obscure manga that was storytimed on Sup Forums last week:
>kissmanga.com/Manga/Tongari-Booshi-no-Atorie
Please, give it a read.

Isn't is magical? Isn't it charming?
Sure, the premise is hardly original, but the execution is top notch. The paneling in particular is stunning — normally I hate gimmicky panels (like in Asterios Polyp), but here it is subtle or immersive.

Tongari Booshi no Atorie is far from the greatest manga of all time, and it certainly doesn't represent the average quaintly of manga as a whole.
I wouldn't have even found it if I hadn't been bored enough to read the storytime. In fact, I've often skipped over pages of this manga that were posted in OPT's because it didn't look interesting.
My point is that I've been reading manga and comics for years, yet every single week I still find some new ongoing manga that's interesting. Last week it was Tongari Booshi no Atorie. The week before that it was Somali to Mori no Kami-sama. Yesterday is was Tomodachi Game (which is admittedly rather trashy).

How often do any of us stumble across a new amazing American comic?
Once a year, if we're really lucky?

And for the record, I actually don't like or watch anime, so I won't make any comparisons with western animation.

>We almost never actually discuss a comic's story
I've had lots of schizoid hypercrisis plot discussion here.

Hi mom I'm on Sup Forums!

Blame capitalism.

>on topic, legitimate discussion of the many complexities and obscure aspects of a given topic
>Sup Forums

That's it? You come to Sup Forums just for hypercrises discussions that peaked in 2014?

>Comics and cartoons are shit.
So why are you on a Comics and cartoons board?

Depression.
I used to browse Sup Forums a lot a few yeras ago, and today I wanted to wallow in old comfort zones.
After browsing the catalog I was hit by a wave of crippling self awareness and contempt for nerd culture which made me make this thread.

*tips fedora*

The content being created is shallow and limited, and the people who primarily consume comics and cartoons only want that limited pool of content.

You are horrifically correct on all counts, OP. But:
Is unironically true, but with a twist. It's not so much capitalism itself in this case, it's the consumerist mentality. You CANNOT create a new comic, cartoon, whatever now that's good and think that will actually get you enough sales - you have to get some distributor muscle on your side just to make a living of off it, never mind popularity. And that means selling out by definition! Never mind that most, no all, major distributors will basically take your work and destroy it, being forced to abandon control over your work in the first place is awful.

In Japan, people don't just deeply appreciate quality, they go out of their way to buy merch - not toys and consumerist trinkets either, but actual DVDs, CDs, and such, at least in the case of anime. (There are probably equivalents for manga but I'm less familiar with it.)

Yo, hol up. Dis ain't no top of the charts best seller. You just be all on about merica best sellas being no good and now you be praisin some obscure ass manga? Wassup wit dat?

All i'm getting from you post is Sup Forums is shit, and sucks for finding new comics, since the people who actually read things outside the big two a few dozen.

>You CANNOT create a new comic, cartoon, whatever now that's good and think that will actually get you enough sales
Are implying manga is any different?, because it's not.

Indeed I am, because it very much is. Quality manga is supported by the readers even if it isn't backed by a major "sponsor".

Because cartoons and comics largely always have, and always will, be seen a medium of children entertainment in the west.

Comics and cartoons arent really marketed towards a mature audience, even the edgy shit, and this is the result.

If you remain a fan of cartoons or comics as i have, you simply have to consume this shitty truth or try your luck with the japanese mediums, sorry.

OP here.
There is actually only one comic distributor in America, Diamond Comic Distributors Inc. They distribute Marvel, DC and most major indie titles.
It's a very clear cut monopoly, so there isn't any free market, and thus no capitalism.

Distribution is also very important. In Japan, manga is sold in supermarkets and other easily accessible places.
In America, you have to go to a comic shop to buy physical comics in person, which means the only people with access to comics are those who actively seek out comic stores, meaning the only people entering the market are those with an established interest in superhero's and typical comic book nerd bullshit.

>Comics and cartoons arent really marketed towards a mature audience
Because they're written as juvenile trash, particularly cartoons. If we got animesque cartoons again you'd see that changing... again.

>Blah blah blah I'm so much better than you
Pass

Do you think manga is self-published or something?, you still need some manga magazine or publisher to accept it, and if it doesn't sell enough it gets cancelled.

That has literally nothing to do with what I said.

Of course it isn't self-published, I'm talking money.

The Japanese comic book industry outputs a thousand times the content of the American one. There is a dramatically higher amount of quality media with huge demographic diversity, there's not just something for everyone, there's a shit ton of something for everyone. There are comics for young boys, young girls, young adults, old men, old women, etc. Interested in x hobby? There's a well written, well drawn quality manga for that hobby most likely. Interested in lgbt characters or some other minority representation? Instead of completely insulting tokens you will have dozens if not hundreds of titles to choose from ranging from fully comedic to dramatic / tragic or cute and sexy or whatever you're looking for. Want porn? There's an insane amount of content for whatever fetish you could think of that again is well drawn and actually caters to your interest. You can find comics about your job, about your interests, about your fantasies, whatever. You can find longrunning stories with consistent quality, one artist / writer with a focused vision that spans decades of material, instead of the constant fumbling of characters between hands in the west.

There's not enough people interested in comics in the west. There's not enough good content for people who are interested in comics to want to buy anything at all. There's not enough new comics being made. Far more people interested in comics simply turn to Japanese comics, which are typically easy to view online for free. These problems all feed each other.

>You CANNOT create a new comic, cartoon, whatever now that's good and think that will actually get you enough sales
A comic renaissance could happen if people make it happen.

OP here again.
Published American comics are almost entirely shit, including outside of the top sellers. That's not to say that they're all shit, but the exceptions are so few and far between that they're irrelevant.
Manga, on the other hand, is constantly churning out new and interesting titles. Even among the top selling manga you'll find unique and interesting stories.
There is no shortage to good manga like their is good published comics.

>largely always have, and always will, be seen a medium of children entertainment in the west.

Maybe now, but the "always have" part is so blatantly false and ignorant. For fuck's sake, most comics pre comics code authority were made by soldiers for soldiers, mainly dealing with shit like war stories and ptsd and what ifs, with mature shit all the fucking time. Some of them may as well have been metal gear spinoffs. There was a thriving horror comics scene, a thriving romance comics scene, there was shit for families and shit for adults and shit for kids and tijuana bibles were as common as modern porn cartoonists.

The main issue was that the comics code lead to a bunch of stuff that made distribution of comics much harder and so it fell out of the public consciousness until shit like movies and videogames took a much more solid grasp.

So fucking what if people think comics are for kids, that's why you make comics thst aren't for kids and aim them at a different audience. For a while people thought science fiction as a concept was for kids, do you know how fucking stupid it would've been to have just let it die because of naysayers like that?

The real problem is cartoonists aren't usually good businessmen and even have weird anti capitalist leanings instead of trying to figure out supply and demand and marketing (which has fuck all to do with changing content and everything to do with actually communicating your product to others)

Well i have absolutely no idea what you mean by sponsors, but you do know creator owned comics exist, right?

Lol ok, ill concede that back in the 1940's they made propaganda comics for soldiers and mature detective stories.

But my point stills stands, the west doesnt take comics seriously because of the perspective of being juvenile entertainment.

>So fucking what if people think comics are for kids, that's why you make comics thst aren't for kids and aim them at a different audience.

Yeah but that's just a huge economic risk, especially currently that american comic sales are low and publishers are feeling the bern. I agree with you but you should understand why it might seem like a poor idea for those in the business.

>propaganda comics

Nigger one of the more popular comics at the time was one about stories from the nazi perspective.

Also
>things being stagnant means risk is bad

Learn 2 business, a stagnant market means it's the best time to come out with weird inventive shit to get ahead of the competition, soiled in their own traditional way of doing things, and force them to compete.

>Nigger one of the more popular comics at the time was one about stories from the nazi perspective.
Not the guy you're talking to but what comic is this?

Blame the idiots who think merit < diversity

>A comic renaissance could happen if people make it happen.
How exactly? What do I have to do to make it happen?

But comics were shit long before Marvel started pandering to SJW's.

...

If you have no idea, ask. Don't assume.

I said MAJOR. As in, a big publisher, not just any.

>Hurr durr I'm just gonna make things up/misconstrue how the industry works
>but please ask me to explain my retardation

>Nigger one of the more popular comics at the time was one about stories from the nazi perspective.

Im not surprised.

Also, i never claimed cartoonists were good businessmen, i just claimed that they were too scared to make bold moves like trying to market comics to those not already in the fanbase, they seem to rather pander to (((SJW's))) or something along those lines

If this had a similar tone to the new Wolfenstein games (the first one, not the shitty new sequel) I'd read the shit out of this.

I think you were addressing the post I linked to, not mine.

will a comic book ever create the distinction between the German Army and the Waffen SS

Probably because it's for fucking children.

>refers to major publishers as sponsors
>thinks he isn't retarded

So do people want to talk about the top 10 best selling movies and songs or...? because they aren't a good reflection for their medium either

Announcing sages and reports is against the rule now. I saw somebody get purged for it a few weeks ago.

I was being sarcastic you stupid fuck. Hence the scare quotes.

>tries to use sarcasm on the internet
>thinks he isn't retarded
And no you weren't, you were being euphamistic, it's a stupid way to talk about major publishers.
Let's not forget that you're just flat out wrong about creator owned comics not existing, your entire argument boils down to "The manga industry is much larger than the comic book industry", which is to say it's not much of an argument at all.

There are tons of great albums every year. There are even good movies, including popular movies.

How many great ongoing non-superhero, non-multimedia franchise comics can you name? 3? 5?

>your entire argument boils down to "The manga industry is much larger than the comic book industry"
Nope. Shows how much you understood it tho.

>Non multimedia
So if it's good and popular enough to get adapted then it doesn't count for you? Fuck you're a faggot.

If you actually think the size of the comic book industry has nothing to do with the variety of titles published you are indeed fucking retarded.

If you think it's the only factor YOU'RE the one who's retarded. Quantity not being quality is a concept 5-year-olds get, yet you don't seem to.

Southern Bastards
Black Science
East of West
Manifest Destiny

This is just image, just of what I've personally read and thought was good recently and I left out everything Millarworld because you'd do a quick google and screech about the netflix deal. It becomes clearer with every post you're a casual fuckwit who thinks he knows best when in reality he doesn't know shit.

It's almost like the two largest publishers in the small industry are specialized in a genre you don't like, and you take it as crime against art!

When fucking Avatar's November release schedule alone covers this action, you know this guy is a fucking troglodyte

>A comic renaissance could happen if people make it happen.

I'm intrigued, how could we do that, user?

Jesus OP, I agrees with most of what you said but you sounds like one of the most uninteresting person I've ever seen.

Blame McCarthy.

>Published American comics are almost entirely shit, including outside of the top sellers.
Then read 2000ad or Eurocomics nigger. Why does this always happen where a retard refuses to acknowledge the existence of other publishers?

"we" can't.

But I think the key things will be new technology. Thats going to drive the next change in comics, not some cultural shift or drive from a publisher. And chances are, it will actively harm the current comic industry.

So probably a new piece of software, that allows for decent, consistent comics to be produced by a hobbyist, fairly cheaply. Probably something fairly simple, that lets you make models move a camera around and take "pictures" then adds a filter to give it a nice comic aesthetic. Download more filters for different styles, make your own etc. Key thing is: its cheap, and easy to get started.
The second is a distributor. Probably a website coupled with a app for mobile distribution.
People then browse, buy a 99p comic to read on the train to work, set up a subscription. Some go viral, most don't.

Now, if you are an artist who hand does everything, selling your stuff for a few quid a few times a month, you're fucked, outcompeted by the cheaper mass. But for writers and editors, it probably makes life easier and expands their market.

tl;dr - When comics become easy to make and cheap to buy, then shit will change.

>Probably something fairly simple, that lets you make models move a camera around and take "pictures" then adds a filter to give it a nice comic aesthetic. Download more filters for different styles, make your own etc. Key thing is: its cheap, and easy to get started.
Poser. You just described Poser.

Discussions would be better if comic discussions werent constantly archived after 40-50 posts due to retarded cartoon threads.
Split board when?

>Split board when?
Never. Why would anyone besides anons care enough to do it?

>representation
>Japan
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

Yup. I think poser, or one of its future iterations thats perhaps slightly more accessible, and lets you put a comic filter over it to make it look better (a direct poser model looks tacky, put a filter over and it looks better)

>lets you put a comic filter over it to make it look better
It'll never look good enough user. Not unless you put actual effort in. People are doing exactly what you're describing and it still looks god awful.

Manga? You mean japanese comics.

It will get there user, sooner or later.

>It will get there user
Do you have proof that it will? And when will it happen user?

Why are you even responding to him at this point?

>Do you have proof that it will?
I'm making an assertion regarding future events, not a statement of fact, based on the general trend of technologies being developed to make production cheaper. Am I 100% sure that this will come to pass? No, for every smartphone there has been a segway.

But you can see the foundations and patterns within other industries. Look at gaming: as production costs go down and the distribution services facilitate, there has been a big boom in indie devs. Sure they're not anything like a AAA (in comics case, Big2 et al) but they shift units and are experimental. Look at other industries - news media, TV, books.

Just to clarify an earlier point I made I don't think its going to destroy the current companies, they'll be able to produce far higher quality stuff consistently and at a faster rate than currently, but the big thing will be initiated by a wave of indie comic creators.

I think this is likely, but it wont be clear for another few years at the very earliest.

>, this handful of good webcomics are a statistical anomaly,
Anything good is a statistical anomaly. Most things suck.
>webcomics are irrelevant in the world of published comics
You really think the increasing ease of just making the comic you want to make and putting it online so readers from all over the world can throw money at you isn't affecting the professional comics scene? Sure, a solo artist won't make quite as much money per page on patreon as they would working for the big Two, but on the other hand you don't have to deal with writers you don't like, management, politics, censorship, you keep all the rights to your work, you can live wherever you want so long as there's internet, etc etc.

>poser becoming the main method by which comics are produced is what will save them
I hope you get hit by a bus. No "filters" will save poser from looking like absolute garbage, and it doesn't even solve the challenges of paneling, backgrounds or coloring. You are retarded.

You understand that you are claiming War Machine 2.0 will be regarded as a seminal comic right? Poser just gives you figures, it doesn't make you a comic artist who does layouts, scene composition and backgrounds, on top of thise figures. It also doesn't give you the eye to pose those figures in a creative way like Janin and Sorrentino at least do.

>Blame capitalism
Are you retarded? Not even joking do you have a mental defect?

How the fuck is what people discuss on Sup Forums the fault of capitalism?
How is what people choose to watch on TV or buy in their comics stores the fault of capitalism?
Simply because you desire something fundamentally different from everyone else, and the entire world hasn't changed to fit you? Because people make things for the enjoyment of people who aren't you?

Yeah, the system is the problem because 1.5 million people a week watch TTG.
The system is the problem that everyone mostly buys comics from the big two.
The system is at fault for the low comic sales.
The system is at fault for the low viewership and support of the many quality independent creators.
The system is at fault for allowing millions to support eastern comics and cartoons instead of western ones
The system is at fault for the fact that when faced with the decision people prefer to spend their money on text based furry porn than other media.

In fact, those people making choices neither of us agree with (unless you're a furfag idk you) shouldn't be possible. They don't have the right to do that, to allocate their time and resources as they please, because just look how that upsets the few thousand people who browse the western comics and cartoons board on Sup Forums. Those people don't have the right to enjoy life as they wish, those creators don't have the right to create content those people want.

Face fucking facts instead of being a self-obsessed loser and realize that just because something isn't marketed towards you in this already incredibly niche genre doesn't mean there is some massive systematic problem because the creators are utilizing resources in the way that allows them to create the most content they can for the largest group of people they can.

I'd still take all of that over anything made in Japan. Amerians should've nuked those gooks more properly.

>There are even good movies, including popular movies.
No. All popular movies made after '09 are fucking trash and you know it.

And stay there

I really enjoyed the new Kingsman, and many new movies get great reviews from critics and viewers alike. I think you mean, YOU haven't enjoyed movies since '09.

If you were for nerd culture why did you limit your interest in comics to stuff that doesn't have connections to multimedia?
Why act like you want nerd shit but "not superheros or star wars or walking dead or etc".

And really a show doesn't have to be talked about year 1 to gain a good following.
Steven Universe and Star VS both got really discussed mid 2nd season which means past the first year.

And really why only bash American comics like it begins and ends there?
Yes they're the more popular/well-known but that doesn't mean you can't bring up the more niche/obscure.

If you actually wanted to improve Sup Forums you'd have made the kinda thread you wanted to make.

Critics are cunts with low standards. Everyone who gives Hunger Games a positive review is not worth listening to.
>new Kingsman
I would've agreed with you had you mentioned the first movie, but you had to have shit taste.

read guy debord and adorno

This thread lacks pornography, so I'm saging and reporting the Original Poster.

So you still agree that there are good movies after 09, fuck off

the first one was before '09 wasn't it? Either way both are good.
>Hunger Games a positive review is not worth listening to.
I don't like YA shit either but you're confusing "not my thing" with "trash"
>Read a book that merely asserts things as true without any logical or even empirical basis
Turn off your computer, sit down, and reflect are your interactions with other people, or the works you enjoy, any less meaningful because someone wrote something asserting that the mythical commodity fetishism degrades the value of social life.

Hunger Games IS genuinely badly-written, badly-paced trash with shallow one-dimensional characters.
"i-it wasn't meant for you" is a shit excuse.
Oh, and Kingsman is mediocre at best. It's just one of the best things about the shit that is modern popular cinema.

What if they like the pacing, or even the writing.
But even if they didn't people clearly enjoyed it despite those things, a lot of people. Are you telling them they're wrong about what they found redeeming or enjoyable about the movie?

>n-now I don't like it since I remembered it came out after 09
Again,

>Oh, and Kingsman is mediocre at best. It's just one of the best things about the shit that is modern popular cinema.
You nonetheless enjoyed it.

>Kingsman is mediocre at best.
OF all the retarded shit said in this thread, this is the most vapid, and indefensible

I want coward OP to either attempt to defend his retardation surrounding poser saving the industry or admit it was one of the most retarded things said on this website, a fucking monumental bar.

Anime gets boring to me after a while, I only watched subbed of course.
I don't read manga or comics, I have real non-fiction books I read and also actually learn something while doing it.

Also, mods suck Sup Forums cocks, so this board will soon be /cotv/ with 99% of Marvel-DC capeshit.

>user critiques anons that post Sup Forums content on Sup Forums board
>"As long it is based on capeshit comics, we will post Sup Forums content, cucks."

In a nutshell:
If you want to post capeshit based live-action movies and shows, post on Sup Forums. If you want to post capeshit based cartoons and capeshit comics, post on Sup Forums.

Your first post was good, but you undermined it here, I discover great new comics on Sup Forums every week too. The West doesn't have worse comics than the East, they're just more obscure. Also Asterios Polyp is great.

Do you really come to Sup Forums to have serious conversations? I think you've been trolling yourself dude ...

Well they have traps

Why do you hate japan, user? Did japs do something to you

>There is actually only one comic distributor in America, Diamond Comic Distributors Inc. They distribute Marvel, DC and most major indie titles.
>It's a very clear cut monopoly, so there isn't any free market, and thus no capitalism.
That's not how it works at all, m8. A monopoly market can also be a free, capitalist market; further, a free market and capitalism are distinct terms.
Diamond is still scum.

This is every board now. No one comes to this site for discussion, just for shitposting, except the couple of lost souls like myself who scroll all day long hoping for just one decent thread, and when we find it even after days of waiting, it gives hope that maybe more will follow.

Not him (newfag here) but why is it against the rules now?

>A monopoly market can also be a free, capitalist market
>further, a free market and capitalism are distinct terms.
You realize you just contradicted yourself, right?