Reminder that this is what cheap...

Reminder that this is what cheap, limited television animation can look like when strong directors and skilled cartoonists are given total creative freedom.

youtube.com/watch?v=oCa7tKiCMN4

Other urls found in this thread:

sakugabooru.com/post/show/41487
youtube.com/watch?v=s-ji8Oo5q3o
youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg
sakugabooru.com/post/show/41393
sakugabooru.com/post/show/40642
youtube.com/watch?v=WFx7kfHnKg8
youtube.com/watch?v=BfTlYJblV9o
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

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You're preaching to the wrong crowd senpai, Sup Forums will suck the dick of today's garbage shows because 'w-we're still better than anime'. They wouldn't know good art direction if it bit them in the ass

Still outsourced though.

lolsorandum garbage?

Good acting, good composition, solid drawings, to name a few things... Like Looney Tunes had 60+ years ago.
Sorry if there's not enough "character development" or "world building" for your refined Millennial taste.
I'm sure you'll write the world's greatest cartoon some day.

I'm saying the art is disgusting garbage and the gross out humor isnt funny. looney tunes had jokes this doesnt, its like nu spongebob

Hello John.

The drawings look fine to me. I see lines of action, characters that break down into smaller forms resting upon smaller forms (with just enough stylistic "cheating") and appealing proportions

I guess I can always add a few more things I see. Good timing, good colors, good backgrounds, strong poses, clear silhouettes...

The only thing that I think can really be construed as "gross out humor" in that clip is the cat litter in the opening shot and some chewed up gum.

He's right, you know.

John K. was constantly over budget, behind deadline and repeatedly alienated everyone who wasn't an artist when he wasn't busy trying to get his dick wet.

Find someone competent if you want to make an example.

I think the best we can do is appreciate that the medium has changed and we should enjoy what was for what it was. The closest we've got to classic hand-made cartoons is Cuphead, and look how long that took to make. There's no market for the old style because it's so labor intensive. Even drawn with computers, you need to put a lot of work into it to make it look any good.

>"character development" or "world building"
I don't see why people are moving in on things like this as a complaint. It works well in plenty of shows. Obviously not in something like Looney Tunes, where everything can be deposed/redone. But some consistency and detail in a sitcom or serial adventure is a good thing, because it makes the audience more invested.

I think the end product speaks for itself, and will still do so in 50 years.

That's just not good enough for me.

t. Mr. Enter.

I agree with this, it's one of the best things going for modern cartoons. It gives way to a lot of fan creations, which is a big deal when there are so many people who are creative or who at least try to be and need practice. A solid foundation is where modern creators come from, and they know how important it can be for the people they're paving the way for. That's how people will look back on the modern animation dynamic and it's great that they're making their own identity with fully fleshed out realms.

TMS shill pls leave

All you have to do is animate without tweens and it looks good

the end product is a mediocre piece of entertainment whose only real value is being decently animated.

John K does not and has never understood the business side of the animation industry. He's spent damn near 40 years moaning about cartoons being made wrong but they are a product. They are made for money and he had his chance to make an impact on the industry and create a niche for the kind of things he wanted. But he blew it by alienating the suits and the talent and now he can't even deliver a three minute short, on time, with money donated by his fans.

Ren and stimpy is decent but its not a masterpiece in anything save maybe comedic timing and even then its quality as a piece of comedy is debatable.

50 years from now this show ill, at best, be a history piece. And probably remembered more for being the gateway into terrible grossout humor shows than anything else.

(OP)
$250,000 is not cheap, this is cheap limited television animation with strong directors and skilled cartoonists.

sakugabooru.com/post/show/41487

Meanwile at $500,000
youtube.com/watch?v=s-ji8Oo5q3o
To Canada.
At a high budget.
youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

At a low budget.
sakugabooru.com/post/show/41393

Too off-model. How are cartoonists like this allowed in the industry nowadays?

how much of the budget actually goes into the animation?

sakugabooru.com/post/show/40642

Yep.

Every single fucking person always uses this scene as the big example of Ren and Stimpy while Stimpys Fan Club had a much better scene in it. But since it's not this one it constantly gets deleted off of Youtube.

I would worry first about how to draw and move something solid in three dimensions, and how to draw unique, lifelike expressions, before I worried too much about "character development" or "world building".

>the end product is a mediocre piece of entertainment whose only real value is being decently animated
Yeah, this cartoon is only decently animated. I'm not really impressed when music is played expressively and competently either.

>John K does not and has never understood the business side of the animation industry.
Because the business side of the animation industry (as it exists) is full of unnecessary nonsense, much of which didn't exist in the early days of television.

>He's spent damn near 40 years moaning about cartoons being made wrong but they are a product. They are made for money and he had his chance to make an impact on the industry and create a niche for the kind of things he wanted. But he blew it by alienating the suits and the talent and now he can't even deliver a three minute short, on time, with money donated by his fans.
Cartoons have always been product, made for money, even in the Golden Age. That's no excuse for their decline in quality. John K. is just one of many skilled and talented cartoonists (you wouldn't know they still exist watching TV, even when one gets a show, their work hardly ever actually makes it to the screen), and he happened to actually get a show on the air by virtue of being in the right place at the right time. I don't care about his personal failings, the work speaks for itself. I have not seen any other cartoon from the last 25 years (or 30 before that) executed with as much skill or talent.

>Ren and stimpy is decent but its not a masterpiece in anything save maybe comedic timing and even then its quality as a piece of comedy is debatable.
It's head and shoulders above any of its contemporaries, thanks to the many talented people who worked on it.

It was a better scene but it didn't have censored content so people won't wank about it forever.

Also I want Famicom to leave.

That does not count as CCS has a larger budget then most anime.
Cartoons were not a product in the golden age, we been through this before and TMS as well as John K proved that TV animation can be more then just toy adds, otherwise Gummi Bears, DuckTales'87, Tiny Toons, Batman:TAS, Animaniacs and Laura Haruna would've never existed if TV cartoons were required to be toy adds as is also the case with The Simpsons, Ren & Stimpy, Beavis & Butt-Head, King of The Hill and Futurama.

Talanted artists worked on it now talenented funny people or else it would have more humor thsn extreme close up reaction image.

He is not here, try Sup Forums

I wish Famicom would kill himself he's literally autistic and likes super bad shows and he's wrong about everything don't you agree

>o-okay guys but why isn't every cartoon just a dumpsterfire of exaggerated expressions and physical humor
Because it would seem out of place and unappealing?
Have you ever stopped to think maybe we don't need to have the whole industry screech to a halt just because you're too much of a sperg burglar to distinguish subtlety from blandness?

>TV animation

Even if you win the special Olympics, you're still handicapped. That's just the way it has to be. No company can realistically invest that much on animation. We should be comparing writing and directing merits, because those can be scaled/compared much more fairly.

>Even if you win the special Olympics, you're still handicapped.
This will be lost on Famicom.

>a dumpsterfire of exaggerated expressions and physical humor
So this is what we call basic animation fundamentals. Interesting.

>subtlety
>IT'S BAD ON PURPOSE! IT'S JUST SUBTLE!

Modern feature animation is the same amateurism with bigger budgets.

Nothing you said is true.

>No company can realistically invest that much on animation.
Telecom will like to have a word with you.

also everything else you said is 100% false.
Also false.

>So this is what we call basic animation fundamentals. Interesting.
What (you) call 'basic animation fundamentals' amounts to a visual artistic expression with severely limited storytelling potential.
Animation is a tool, not a genre. Get over it.
>>IT'S BAD ON PURPOSE! IT'S JUST SUBTLE!
Thanks for proving my point about you being autistic

Everyone! Everyone please! This is a bait thread! Famicom is officially here! Everyone please ignore this thread! Famicom is an autistic 30 something and he believes old toonzone information said by random people to be credible sources! Shows over! You can go home!

>What (you) call 'basic animation fundamentals' amounts to a visual artistic expression with severely limited storytelling potential.
What in the actual fuck are you babbling about?

what's Famicom? Nintendo?

No it is not, nothing you said is true and Famicom is 27 years old.

TMS shill pls leave

Famicom is a animation historian, he's called the Thad Komorowski of anime over in Japan/over at 2Ch for a reason.

>that amount of frames
>cheap

>I's no can read good
I've got better things to do, then

$250,000 a episode is not cheap.

Is there any way puppet animation can look good? I personally think WOY looks pretty good, but maybe that's because I just like the show.

Never ceases to amaze me what shitty animation anime fans consider "good"
>it has lots of frames, it must be good!
24fps of shit is still shit

Madhouse is a good studio, it is not shit as they did that scene in house.

It's a quality scene.

>makes baffling claim that good animation/drawing somehow limits the storytelling potential of cartoons
>believes this claim is self-explanatory

No, Tokyo Movie Shina will not produce Space Dandy for 1 million dollars per episode. It's a Bones franchise.

You seem to be under the impression that the studio name and/or the number of frames make animation "quality"

That's because you're retarded.

Basically this. I don't think John K even understands the old animation he claims to love. Those cartoons were not full-on ADHD screeching like his stuff, even the more physical/bizarre subsection generally was not anything at all like Ren and Stimpy. Just look at most of his character art. He is trying way too hard to be in-your-face and aggressively stupid. True skill lies within refrain, as much as freedom. Ren and Stimpy isn't like an old cartoon, it's like a bad sitcom with loud and random characters. Most animated sitcoms right now (more or less all the popular shows, essentially) are far superior. Something like Amazing World of Gumball is like R&S, but better. It keeps the fast pace, weirdness and aggression, but manages to be interesting and likable at the same time.

No, I made the ""baffling"" claim that what !you! perceive as good animation limits the storytelling potential of cartoons
But of course you lack literal sentience AKA the ability to recognize subjective experience, so I can see why that statement might have baffled you

So long, my underdeveloped friend

Telecom, and they only produced 2 episodes (2 & 17) because Bones was full at the time.
Telecom did the same thing with FMA:Brotherhood as well (episodes 44 & 55).

ok

And my opinion on this subject for what it's worth, yeah animation should be more fucking animated. There's times when things moving on screen all the time can be weird/distracting but I haven't seen a lot of it. We definitely needs more animated cartoons these days instead of static ones.

Well-designed puppets.

>No, I made the ""baffling"" claim that what !you! perceive as good animation limits the storytelling potential of cartoons
What, exactly, do you think that I perceive as good animation?

I agree.

That's scene is so fucking overrated because of Enturds. Not even remotely the most disturbing episode from R&S

I don't know who that is, I've been re-watching it on my own for about 12 years now.

Yeah I could pick an episode of Ren and Stimpy at random and chances are it would be more disturbing than that one.

It's not about the amount of motion (although that helps), it's about acting and believability..

Sup Forums will defend garbage like the Loud House, Star Vs., and Gwenpool because they have waifus and shipping. Opinions towards animation on this board should generally be discarded.

Don't you know that acting is a "dumpster fire" that just limits your storytelling potential?

T H I S
H
I
S

There's no problem with autists getting off on illustrated radio plays, but some of us actually like cartoons and would like to see them come back.

Its nice that it looks good in motion except the fact that the art style is a dumpster fire so it still looks like shit just smoth sailing shit

>Is there any way puppet animation can look good?
Yes, nigga. Plenty of films/shows from the 80s had the peak of practical effects (puppetry, models, stop-motion, costumes) before CGI properly came in. Jim Henson is the biggest name, obviously. There are probably a few kids shows today still using costumes and puppetry.

Pic/vid related, this entirely a puppet: youtube.com/watch?v=WFx7kfHnKg8

I really don't know man. But west animation really needs some kind of "exhibition" cartoons to show if it can still do stuff it used to be able to like 50 years ago, or even in the 90's. I mean it doesn't need it but I'd still like to see some more fluid animation.

...that bait?

The first Bugs Bunny was in fact called Max Hare. I suggest you watch those 2 shorts that he appeared in if you want a better idea of how Disney shaped all of animation initially.

>Everything has equal merit
>Nothing in the past could have possibly been better than it is today
>There's no such thing as mediocrity

These are safe, bait-free opinions to have.

>Thad Komorowski
You read his book too?

Animation is the least important part of cartoons as long as it looks good who cares how fluid it is

Who hasn't.

That is false, this is not the 1960s anymore.

I would take good drawings with limited animation (e.g. early H-B) over bad drawings with fluid animation (e.g. modern features)

Ren and Stimpy is supposed to be a vulgar, offensive show though.

The 60s were a different time, also include early Tezuka in there as well.

Animation is not just about "fluid", but expression and refrain. A lot of people confuse spontaneous movement with animation, but that isn't necessarily the case. It's like a 100m sprinter vs a ballet dancer.

>good drawings
>early H-B

What did he mean by this?

>gross out humor

very mature

Ed Benedict is a excellent artist, in fact HB had alot if not most of MGM's animation staff once the studio was founded.

Theres also Dick Bickenbach and Iwao Takamoto as well.

youtube.com/watch?v=BfTlYJblV9o

this is limited as hell but still lolsworthy

Ed Benedict was a talented, iconic character designer with a remarkable skill for combining good drawings and appeal with more modern stylization.

Are you retarded?

Why do you associate off-color humor with immaturity? Just curious.

That... That wasn't what I meant.

Something more like this?

H-B has terrible art, even if excuse the occasional stand-out character design (most of which look the same). Fuck your contrarianism.

That only became true in the mid-1960s, their earliest cartoons look really good, despite the cheapness. We're not talking about Jabber Jaw.

That was not the case until the 70s, When Takamoto was a excellent artist the issue was that all of the life was sucked out of the cartoons and by 1978 they started to ditch the animation to Taiwan to Wang.

The fuck are you smoking, bitch nigger?

I've never met anyone who's read it. Ren & Stimpy fans are already a niche, and people who enjoy it enough to read the book are a niche within a niche.

...

More like by Scooby-Doo, Johnny Quest & Space Ghost were excellent.

>Scooby-Doo

Background is on point.

I don't like a lot of that stuff as much.
I do kind of like though. What's that from? \
Looks very "1960s"

Sorry, but if you think this looks better than current day there is something wrong with you. Maybe this was groundbreaking during the very early days, but it doesn't hold up much against anything else (unless we're going back to the 1910s, or something).

This is literally the best they have to offer, at their absolute prime and biggest franchise. Keep on cherry-picking.

Backgrounds =/= character animation.
With things like Voltron Legendary Defender becoming mainstream more and more people are jetting over to Ren & Stimpy because of it.

It is not a niche, at least not any more and has not been for years thanks to the DVDs.

>Sorry, but if you think this looks better than current day there is something wrong with you.
I grew up watching cartoons indirectly ripping off that style (thanks to R&S). Clearly I'm not alone.

You said "drawings". So far we've given you good character designs and backgrounds.

Are you autistic, famicom? Stop outing yourself, you dumb cunt.
Some random guy wouldn't know or care how old you are, stupid.

>I grew up watching cartoons indirectly ripping off that style (thanks to R&S). Clearly I'm not alone.
That style is absolute dogshit though. It's nothing but talentless ugly scribbles - completely worthless. This godawful trend was started by UPA studio, the biggest criminals in animation history, who were comprised almost entirely of talentless rejects from much better studios like Disney and MGM. It's almost embarrassing that their material was a close contemporary of the golden age, because of how vast the quality drop is.