80s Comickino Thread

Can we all agree that the 80s was the best era for comics? And that DC blew Marvel away save for Uncanny X-men.

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rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html
comichron.com/faq/watchmensales.html
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Best era for the Big 2 for sure.

Can we agree than maybe you should start 80's comic threads with less blatant Company Wars bullshit?

As far as capes go, yes.

But Marvel had their fair share of outstanding books too.

New Mutants, Stern's Avengers, Simonson Thor, Byrne's Fantastic Four and Alpha Flight, Marvel Fanfare, the Marvel Graphic Novel line, Epic, and Miller Daredevil come to mind

He's not wrong though, quality-wise they had Alan Moore who really did outperform Marvel and even a lot of DC's other books. That's not to say that Marvel was slouching, they had Claremont's X-Men, Stern's Amazing Spider-Man, Simonson's Thor, etc etc.

Should Alpha Flight really be that high up there? I thought Mantlo's run was utter shit.
How wrong are you. DC had Grell Green Arrow, Miller and Moore on Batman, Moore on Swamp Thing, Dennis O Neil on Question, Wolfman on Teen Titans, Byrne on Superman ETC.

Hell lets not forget the really awesome vigilante series and Suicide Squad.

The current era is the best era of comics due to the fact that we are finally getting proper diversity, and problematic character such as Tony Stark (sexism) Thor (racism/Eurocentricism) and Spider Man (male fantasy) are being replaced.
I know you're all going to try to retort with your typical small brained MRA/anti-diversity bullshit like "bad dialog," "character replacement sucks" and "plot," but some things are more important than a story that you feel is "better."
Can we all at lead agree that the new run of Thor as a female is better than CoIE or DoFP, or any of the other male power fantasy/non-representative/non-intersectional/sexist/pro-capitalist "great stories" from the 80s?

>Can we all agree that the 80's was the best era for comics?
>Moore's Swamp Thing
>Ostrander's Suicide Squad
>Miracleman
>Watchmen
>TDKR
>Daredevil Born Again
>Justice League International
>Claremont's X-Men and New Mutants
>Simonson's Thor
I guess so, yeah.
>And that DC blew Marvel away save for Uncanny X-Men
No that's not true.

I meant Byrne's run specifically.

It had some of my favorite comics ever for sure.

>Year One
>Dark Knight Returns
>O'Neil Question
>Legends of the Dark Knight

>Tony Stark (sexism)
Not JUST sexism though. You should add more stuff to his faults

>chauvinism
Duh.

>extremely toxic masculinity
Again, duh!

>western superiority
His whole thing is being better than the Asians and Russians and whatever and helping the US and the Free World and that's like, problematic!

>Eurocentrism
DUH! He literally models himself after Medieval Knights! And his name is Tony?! Like, the Romans and Italians were Nazis, and the Greeks, like, stole everything from Muslims and Black Egyptians!

>capitalist propaganda
OMGEEEEEEE how did nobody notice?!

97265544
Fake post.

Care to disprove why that is?

Which reminds me, Alan Moore's Captain Britain was a pretty rad read.

try harder

>O'Neill Question
So what's this one like?
Simonson's Thor is better than Claremont's X-Men, and that's that. Also stop trying to turn this into a retarded console war thing because this thread has potential for greatness.

>O'Neill Question
>So what's this one like?
One man's struggle to save the festering shithole he calls home.

It is probably my favorite comic.

dont forget strikeforce morituri

It's a great read if you don't mind 80s art. The whole series is basically Vic trying to be a superhero in the worst city on earth. It also has Lady Shiva in it, and he gets trained by Richard Dragon at one point. Definitely check it out if you can, although the trades are damn expensive.

I could be persuaded to post my scans of the whole run in the morning, potentially

>Best era for the Big 2 for sure.
>As far as capes go, yes.
Let's talk about the indie non-capes then.

What were the best examples of that era?

go on

>spoiler
Please do that. This board is the shithole you call home, so save us.

I will if the thread stays up, but don't expect a storytime or anything. I'll just load the .cbr files into a mega link, because that's a not-insane way of sharing comics.

DC always blew Marvel away except maybe in the 60s

It has the only portrayal of Lady Shiva as a competent and layered character. Next to her portrayal in Casandra Cain's batgirl of course.
The series ends with Question leaving the city thinking its beyond saving. You should do the same with this board.

60s and 70s. DC needed a good kick in the nuts to update themselves, which they did in the 80s.

>You should do the same with this board.
But I'm not the hero.

Are you the giant retarded baby with a tiny gun?

As I haven't read the run any references to it will go over my head, sorry.

Cerebus, Usagi Yojimbo, Love and Rockets, for starters.

I kind of liked Lloyd Llewellyn by Daniel Clowes.

>And that DC blew Marvel away save for Uncanny X-men.
Hardly.
Dematties finished his run Cap and Gru shortly began his. Not to mention Mantlo and later PAD on Hulk, O'neil then Micheline on Iron Man, Moon Knight's first and maybe best run, Simonson Thor as other people have said, New Mutants, and PAD's run on Spectacular. Meanwhile the Epic imprint started publishing stuff like Elektra: Assassin, Dreadstar, The One, Marshal Law, and Stray Toasters, not to mention the foreign comics they were translating like Akira and Moebius' works.

>Dreadstar, The One, Marshal Law, and Stray Toasters, not to mention the foreign comics they were translating like Akira and Moebius' works.
None of them are part of the Marvel universe.

80s was great for both. Marvel was killing it, and DC were following it. Both companies tried to one-up each other

But were published by marvel

wrong

back then as with every decade Marvel kicked DC's ass

How. DC stories were actually deep an impactful to comics. Compare freaking Crisis to Secret Wars? Tell me which one was better?

>deep and impactful
give me a fucking break.

And then in comes DC with Watchmen, Saga of The Swamp thing, Animal Man, Skreemer, Question, Suicide Squad, Hawkworld, Grant/Breyfogle Batman, JLI...
I think by "hardly" you meant "easily"

>skreemer, question, suickcide squad, hawkworld
just because you like them, doesn't mean that these were a success, you know?

>Dematties finished his run Cap and Gru shortly began his. Not to mention Mantlo and later PAD on Hulk, O'neil then Micheline on Iron Man, Moon Knight's first and maybe best run, Simonson Thor
just because you like them, doesn't mean that these were a success, you know?

>Can we all agree
The answer to that question, no matter what follows, will always be no.

Oh for fuck's sake, stop waving your dicks around. Get actual sales numbers if it matters to you -- though obviously nobody would start a thread like this if it mattered to them.

>its a "Sup Forums heavy heavy-handedly learns about subjective quality" episode

then you just get the DChump screaming about "overshipping" again

>another thread started by a retard who can only spout shitty memes
Die, faggot OP.

The difference is that Marvel's had classic runs with classic stories. PAD had Future Imperfect, Micheline Demon in the Bottle. Moon Knight kickstarted Sienkiewicz's career, and Gruenwald is without a doubt the most influential Cap writer ever, aside from Kirby.

On the other hand, never heard of Skreemer, Question is obscure, but cult-favorite, SS were no-names until the movie, and Hawkworld, while a very good quality book, wasn't setting the comic book world on fire.

Grant/Breyfogle's Batman era is one of my favorite, but I don't know if it is considered essential, t b h

...

This was a good comic book, but at some point it starts meandering

Holy shit, move over Wolverine.

Idk, the level of writing Suicide Squad and Hawkworld had was miles better than the overly wordy shit Grunewald Cap had. You forget that his run didn't end with a bang but a whimper.

>had was miles better than the overly wordy shit
I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I love these books, but if we have to be honest, everything that marvel was producing back then was of high quality, and they were doing so well, that there were even talks about Marvel buying out DC.

DC, on the other hand, were also killing it with Swamp Thing, Watchmen, New Teen Titans, and other books, but in retrospect, it felt like DC was responding to what marvel did, and amped it up to 11. Keep in mind that Marvel used to be grim and gritty, while DC was this goofy, fun, light-hearted company.

The real change came in 90s, when Marvel basically became what it is today - marketshare leader, but not fan-favorite anymore (beside X-Men). If we talk about 90s, then DC fucking killed marvel. But if we talk about 80s, then DC and Marvel were more or less equals, with Marvel being slightly more popular among the audience.

>If we talk about 90s, then DC fucking killed marvel.
Yeah Marvel never came close to DC's output. Shit we still talk about the cool 90s stories today.

What does 90s Marvel have for remembrance? Oh yeah Clone Saga and X-fags defending the convoluted 90s xbooks.

In certain ways, yes. Other ways, no.

First of all, the thread was about quality, not sales, you Sup Forumsfag.
Second of all, PAD Hulk, Moon Knight and Gru Cap are cult favorites not hugely influential and well known stuff. Still, Watchmen alone beat everything if you want to turn this into a popularity contest.

A lot of people also forget that Image was very popular in the 90s with Youngblood, Spawn, Savage Dragon and Wildcats. The crash of 90s was so spectacular that it's unbelievable.

The strong point of 90s DC was diversity of art styles, and genres. Superman really looked futuristic, Batman was very noir. You had Ennis on Preacher, Etrigan, Lobo with Bisley, Mignola doing some stuff in his then-new style. Beautiful cover art that was eye-catching

Marvel on the other hand had mostly Lee / Liefeld / Portacio clones (first half of the 90s), and Madureira / faux-anime style (second half of the 90s). In regards to writers, it was a mixed bag, some stuff was good, some was bad, but, and this is important, DC felt much more mature and had substance over flashiness.

In regard to good Marvel 90s books, there is certainly the famous AoA X-Men crossover, Busiek did Marvels, I personally loved the 90s GOTG, it was very creative and fun. There were some gems here and there, but you really had to search for them.

Only because in order to fuck Moore and Gibbons out of the rights, they kept it in print indefinitely.

Marvel sold well in the 80s, because they were that good. The gimmicks came later. Yes, Watchmen alone beat everything, nonetheless, keep in mind that Marvel had Shooter as EIC then, who alone could beats every other editor a comic book company can have, and who was responsible for quality control

For the love of god will you stop wanking off about which company is better and just talk about the actual good stories they had going on back then in a civilised manner?
I swear all this animosity is the fault Hate-Monger or some shit.

>they were that good
Pff, nah.

And Shooter's not that good of an editor.

Funny thing is, had Moore published Watchmen through Marvel, he would have all of the rights, but he was so pissed off at marvel that sooner pigs would fly, rather than Moore doing any business with them.

blame OP for being a master-baiter

Oh yeah, imagine meeting unending demand with unending supply, why would a business ever do that? Surely it was an artificial choice made to deliberately screw poor Alan, a simple old man who doesn't understand that if you write something so good people will never stop wanting copies of it, copies will never stop being sold.

>he would have all of the rights
You're so naive.

They kept it in print because it's the most popular, talked about and praised comic book of all time, numbnuts. It continues to produce cash.

I disagree with you, and here is why
rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html

warning it will take some to read

Marvel had a line of both Graphic Novel books and Epic Impring, where the creators regained the rights. Examples:
Cockrum's Futurians (published as MARVEL graphic novel)
Starlin's Dreadstar

Nah, I prefer Silver and Bronze Age cause they're more imaginative and have more Cosmic.

Because those comics are not that popular, comparing them to Watchmen is quite awful. I like Moonshadow and Stray Toasters a lot but those did not sell so well and are kind of cult favorites.

but they are also very dated

Yes, but the argument was that Moore would have rights had he went that route. Of course, it's quite possible that then it wouldn't became as influential as it is today, which begs the question, how much of the success of Watchmen is owed to DC?

They made Watchmen believing after the INITIAL print was complete, they would regain their rights to it. DC misled them into believing this was true.
And the only reason its the most popular, talked about, etc. comic is because DC kept it in print, specifically bookstores. Exact same reason why Maus is known outside of comic book circles.
There's plenty of better stories from that decade, even written by Moore, but because they weren't artificially kept in the spotlight, they're not seen as on the same level.

I'm not going to read your blogspot, motherfucker. Shooter was just there to make sure people meet deadlines, as an actual editor he is not on the level of Berger, Wein or O'Neil. I'm you're willing to give him credit for a lot of Marvel stuff he is not directly responsible for.

>but he was so pissed off at marvel that sooner pigs would fly, rather than Moore doing any business with them.
I get why he hates DC but why the fuck does he hate Marvel?
At the end of the day DC was better. They only started sucking during the new 52 where they tried copying the flashiness of 90s Marvel.
Its the only reason why people look back at Marvel fondly during the era when it was still pretty shit.

They kept it in print because it became popular dumbass, it didn't become popular 20 years later because it had been in print so long.

You know I was just thinking of buying me some Dreadstar for Christmas.
I think Miracleman is better than Watchmen.

Because Marvel is a scummy company.

>why the fuck does he hate Marvel?
They never paid him for Captain Britain. At all. For any of it. Not a penny.

besides the "cultural relevance" bits (all of which aged poorly). I really liked 70s era.

> he is not on the level of Berger, Wein or O'Neil
He certainly was above them. Marvel under his guidance became the top 1 comic book company

And that personally doesn't bother me a bit.

Creatively speaking he is not on their level. As an editor, he is nowhere close to their level.

Are you one of the "born in the wrong generation" folks?

>Creatively speaking
He basically created New Universe, which was a pretty cool concept.
>As an editor, he is nowhere close to their level.
He certainly fixed all of the problems that marvel had

>Legends of the Dark Knight
This launched in 1989 but I would not call it a series of the 80s. The vast majority of issues were written in the 90s

I'm not saying Watchmen's popularity spiked, I'm saying that it started popular, but staying in print meant it was always a go-to for "good comics," which meant the popularity never went down, unlike basically every other comic series.

>but staying in print meant it was always a go-to for "good comics,"
If you understand this then what are you trying to argue?

That better, more popular series fell by the wayside because their publisher wasn't incentivized to fuck over their creators.

>more popular
There weren't any, numbnuts. I think you're unaware of the popularity of Watchmen. The scenario you've come up with to side with poor ol' Alan is surreal.

How about instead of letting this thread turn into two faggots wanking each other off over how much they hate each other we talk about which series was Miller's magnum opus: The Dark Knight Returns, Ronin, or Elektra Assassin?

Forgot picture.

Nah, DC updated in the 70s then revolutionized with the British guys in the 80s. Don't be a casual. 70s DC is fucking great.

Anyone here collecting the Ostrander Suicide Squad trades?

I'm worried because they haven't solicited another volume after 7 (which comes out in a week or two I believe) and there is at least another volume, maybe two that would finish his run.

Would DC really stop printing this THAT close to finally collecting this full run?

I'm really honestly worried

Ronin

It was popular, for sure. But not the most popular.
comichron.com/faq/watchmensales.html
Elektra was more Sienkiewicz's opus than Miller's.

I'm buying it, yeah.
>Would DC really stop printing this THAT close to finally collecting this full run?
Nothing good ever happens so sure, they might stop it there.

>Would DC really stop printing this THAT close to finally collecting this full run?
Yeah. They canceled the fifth and what would've been last volume of REBELS and more recently they collected half of the Nocenti/Phillips Kid Eternity in a trade and another one would've completed the series but they haven't announced anything for a year.
The people in charge of their trade department are just dickish, I'd think Suicide Squad would be a bit more safe, then again it sounds like you haven't bought any volume so you have no right to complain.

Watchmen got recognition from people outside the comic book industry, dummy.

Again, because they put out copies in normal bookstores, not just specialty shops.

>Elodie Yung will never straddle Bill Paxton

I've bought every volume, that's why I'm worried. They usually have two volumes solicited at the same time, so Im able to preorder them via amazon. Normally by now another volume would have been solicited and available for preorder.

I have the 2 volumes of Ostrander Martian Manhunter and the 2 volumes of his Spectre series that DC put out and then didn't complete the series.

I guess I presumed Suicide Squad would be more safe...

Damn why is it always Ostrander series that get axed by the trade department?

Yeah the 80s sure we're a great time for DC

youtube.com/watch?v=9pDnYxBxZBE

They did that with plenty of stuff.