You know, I just got it...

You know, I just got it. I just got why race and gender swaps of white characters are generally more accepted than race and gender swaps of black characters.

See, with white characters, there are precious few characters that have their whiteness as part of their central identity. You could take, say, Ant-Man, and make him black, and as long as he was a shrinky scientist with neuroses he'd be true to the character. Nothing about that HAS to be white.

Danny Rand is a rare example of a character whose whiteness is integral to the character since the whole point of him and his friendship with Luke Cage is he's a rich white guy who doesn't really care about any of that because of his upbringing. He's one of the few guys that you couldn't really make anything but white.

But look at black characters: their blackness is integrally tied into who they are. You couldn't make Static Shock or Luke Cage white because that sort of urban fantasy and black identity is integral to them. They wouldn't be the same.

So clearly, we need more characters who are incidentally black, where their blackness isn't integral. You could make Moon Girl indian or something, and so long as she was still a little girl who was too smart for her own good she'd essentially be the same.

Yeah, basically.

Good point, you convice me, i'll leave this thread now

You're applying logic to an emotional argument.
Everything you say is correct, except
>I just got why race and gender swaps of white characters are generally more accepted than race and gender swaps of black characters.

If you tried to make Moon Girl white, there would be outcry (you know, if anyone even noticed). There shouldn't be a problem with it - since as you said, her race isn't important - but there would be.

The fact that you think their whiteness doesn't play into their treatment says it does.

If you change a character's race and now they have racial issues then it's obvious whiteness has a set of characteristics that you've defined as default.

>If you tried to make Moon Girl white, there would be outcry (you know, if anyone even noticed)
I seriously doubt there are enough people who care enough about Moon Girl.

I agree, black people are black so we have to talk about it constantly. Its been fun talking with you guys, Im off to watch The Dark Tower with my wifes kid. I hear Odetta's actress is great

No it's because the people who complain about whitewashing are completely hypocritical and unapologically anti-white.

Every character's race is important to them, it's just important as their outfit, their hair, their personality, their abilities, because they're all aparts that come together to create the whole.

You only believe their race isn't tied to their character because your critical thinking skills are mediocre.

While I agree that the practice of making a "black character" is a large part of the problem, I must present a counterpoint. First, though, I'll agree that we need more black characters whose stories aren't ABOUT them being black. Spawn comes to mind, or Rhodey. Some characters I think should not be changed specifically because they were milestones in black representation in the comics medium. Gabe Jones, for example, was the first non-stereotypical black man in comics. He was a soldier, drawn like a normal man instead of a caricature (the colorist even made him white on the cover because he thought the indicated color was a mistake since he didn't look like a Sambo cartoon). Black Panther's character is specifically about him being black, but he's the first super-powered black hero so he needs to stay just like he is. Falcon was the first black hero to not have "black" in his name, and that should be preserved.

Nick Fury, however, pokes a hole in your theory. Nothing about Nick Fury *needs* to be white, but there was definitely an uproar around Sam Jackson's casting. Personally I think that was mostly people who didn't actually care about Ma Fury's boy except as an excuse to complain about "white genocide" because they invariably referred to him as "White Fury" as if that had always been his name. Sam Jackson didn't really play Nick Fury, though, he just played Sam Jackson. Sure, I understand that he's too old to be dual-wielding laser pistols while crashing through a window on a motorcycle but they really didn't put much of Nicky's character into him at all.

Kingpin did sort of bother me a little bit, because Fisk actually does sort of need to be white because the Mafia is kind of racist. In this case, the character was changed to allow for the race-swap. Not hating on MDC, he was awesome, just pointing out that OP used a character whose whiteness actually was important enough that they needed to rework Kingpin's background to fit MDC.

The last Fantastic Four movie had to change Sue and Johnny into being step siblings for the sake of making him black. Don't fucking act like people give two fucks about how it reflects the character or the world, they just want more black characters and become ecstatic at the thought of pissing off white people while doing it.
There are writers at this point who now actively do not write non-white characters anymore because they feel diversity has become so cliche and run of the mill they feel the need to balance things out, so shit like raceswapping only further fuels the divide between races.

But people would be *made* to care. The execs handling any creative types that made the swap would be given info from marketing/PR that a loud minority of non-readers/buyers/target-audience/fans is autistically hysterical. Exec reverses decision because that's what middle management does: they keep the status quo of mediocrity chugging along, thus ensuring their own job security in the process.

It's not as much about pissing off white people as it is about money honestly. Sure that's the case for some writers and racism sometimes plays a secondary role but as a whole raceswaps have been always about selling the product to a demo that usually doesn't care unless it's a actor that they find pleasing. The Ancient One of Dr. Strange and the entirety of the Last Airbender was an example of this among others.

This is some serious catch 22

This stems from treeting white characters as the default and 'normal', and anything else as a deviation from normal.

It implies that non-whites are not really apart of the group AND that whites have no real identities other than 'white'. Thus stems all the identity politics bullshit of this decade.

>the mafia is racist
With a few notable exceptions sure. But the Italian mobs isn't all organised crime

>It's not as much about pissing off white people as it is about money honestly.

I meant the consumers, the people who rally for this stuff and defend it get their rocks off to making whitey mad

No, but outrage farming is a big thing these days. If someone said "they race changed changed the smartest person in the universe to be white" you can bet your ass a fuckton of people who don't read comics will start a shitstorm on social media.

>Italian mobs isn't all organised crime
True, and it was therefore an easy change to make. It was still a change to the character that was precipitated by a change to his race. Again, I'm not complaining about MDC's Kingpin, just suggesting that OP should have used a character who didn't require any change at all. Heimdall, for instance.

But Hank is already white.

>You could make Moon Girl indian or something, and so long as she was still a little girl who was too smart for her own good she'd essentially be the same.

Ironic, given that Moon Girl replaced Moon Boy and erased the cultural identity of hairy Small Folk in the process. The hypocrisy makes me fucking SICK.

That more a case of identity policy bullshit like and stated. Some of Hollywood may pay lip service to that shit, especially to exploit those idiots as free advertising, but end of the day the only color Hollywood cares about is green.

>heroic tendencies
>dedication to society and others
>intelligent to the point of not only participating in science but ACTUALLY making worthwhile discoveries
>not white traits
HAHAHAHA

You're partly right but wrong.

You SAY white, but nooo. What you mean is white with american culture. The US creates the majority of the media the west watches and creates. This is specifically more true with comics like Marvel and DC, who are all primiarly American based and created. So becuase white americans are the majority, that is seen as the normal because for most people living here that is the normal.

BUUUT! Culture plays an important part for whites, as if you start reading into history and get to really know that shit, you'll learn how different white cultures can be from one another.

If you had a Scottish character, that fucker would have to stay fucking scottish. Being culturally Scottish would be important to them. Same as an Italian mobster based character. You couldn't just make em unItalian. Russian, French, English, blah blah, all bring important identity to a white character, and those identities are usually PART of that character because its seen as exotic to the people sucking in this media, which are Americans.

Its all about culture. fuck the slavs

>watching Dark Tower anyway
It devolved into fanfiction in the last couple of books. God awful. He should have stopped writing the series the second he lost his notes.

>hating slavs
Get out of here. They are beautiful creatures

The Last Airbender made the wierdest casting choices I have ever seen in a movie. It really doesn't make any sense at all.

>What you mean is white with american culture.
The idea of a singular white race really only exists in America. In Europe it's all about nationality.

That's because Shamylan is an incompetent poo in loo who sucks at film

>The Ancient One
That really was a no-win situation. Make the character Tibetan and get the movie banned in China. Change the character's ethnicity and you're implying that Asian cultures are interchangeable.

When I heard some tumblrites saying "can't they just change TAO to Chinese or something" I wanted to scream.

I mean the original ended like shit did anyone think the sequel movie would be better

Good point. Interesting observation. I've never thought of it like that. I'm a little embarassed. Seems obvious now that you've pointed it out.

What about, for instance, Heimdall?
Being based on norse mythology, it is heavily historico-culturally implied that he should be white. But at the same time, there is nothing about the characters or the setting that would require the Aesir to be white.

Forgot mah eyecatcher.

The most poetic thing was with Doctor Strange when they had to cast Tilda Swinton instead of your average chinese monk guy, everyone was jubilant because muh progressiveness, while it was really to remove a Tibetan monk from a movie destined to China.

I did not mind blakk Kingpin. It's the writing that sucked.

>The last Fantastic Four movie had to change Sue and Johnny into being step siblings for the sake of making him black.
I like how this happened because they don't have a "white guy" example. And now we DO have a white guy example -- Jake Paul
>Jake Paul as Johnny Storm

Which is odd because you can have two siblings that look like entirely different races. I know a set of four siblings with two that look absolutely white and two that look mixed/SEAmonkey

and yet it's still the only enjoyable thing Stephen King ever made

god I hate americans so much
you guys fucked up the whole world and fucked even further the black people of your country, and the leftists instead of helping black people in actually being part of the society and killing the guetto culture they want to enforce it as "diversity" and bring these undesirable traits (in any place of the world) as part of "being black", thus, ruining characterization even further when a race swap occurs


thanks to YOUR mediai, the afro-american is the most undesirable subspecies of the planet

It also resulted in not one but TWO "great white" type characters. Not only is the story about a white american rising to the top of an ancient eastern discipline in a short time, but now he's inheriting the mantle from a white european. The Ancient One should have been a Wakandan if they were worried about Tibet.

>he doesn't like IT

I'll see your IT and raise you one SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION.

And speaking of Shawshank Redemption, Red actually was Irish in the book. In my opinion, though, not only does the switch to Morgan Freeman not interfere with the story at all, it makes the "Maybe it's because I'm Irish" like 10x better.

The main problem with black characters in all forms of media is that the most of the writers making it think "being black" is a personality trait. Its fucked up cause even there was a writer that could write an interesting character who happens to be black it would mean nothing cause people have been brainwashed (particularly in America) to associate certain traits with black people and if those trait aren't in the character they aren't consider a good representation of black people.

>defending blackwash
Fuck off, faggot.

>They are beautiful creatures
lmao

>See, with white characters, there are precious few characters that have their whiteness as part of their central identity.
Is this truly the case? Or is it that you just miss those elements which are directly tied to their whiteness, because you accept them as "normal"?

>So clearly, we need more characters who are incidentally black, where their blackness isn't integral.
Am I to understand you want to create characters for the purpose of them being race swapped later for "equality"?

I categorically refuse to complain about Morgan Freeman. Literally any role anyone wants to cast him in is perfectly fine by me. He'd have made an awesome Ancient One and you know it. Just imagine him in clown make-up trying to lure a child into the sewers with that voice, or rolling around in a wheelchair lecturing people about human-mutant coexistance, or giving speeches about freedom and democracy to Red Skull, or explaining all the different kinds of ants to Scott Lang. The man could read a phone book and I'd listen and pay attention.

>make a character black
>get the best black actor for it

RIP in peace, you were always my Kingpin.

No. Just don't default characters to white.

You heard the man.
Cast Morgan Freeman as Toph Beifong.

Black kingpin was a well done race swap. I feel like most are done shittly but I cant think of any off the top of my head.

I didn't think there was any way I'd ever want to see a sequel to The Last Airbender, but that would do it. I'd even pay money at the theater for that.

>"Maybe it's because I'm Irish"
That was one of the best lines of the whole movie for sure, and it's absolutely because of Morgan Freeman .

I've gotta be honest, I think having an adopted family member reinforces the family themes of F4 quite a lot more because an adopted sibling is a special kind of bond different than a regular blood sibling, but still intimately family. It's adopting someone into your family and calling them family by choice and not happenstance. That would have been a legitimately good direction to explore in the hands of an actually capable screenwriter and I wouldn't have minded it one bit.

Still wouldn't require Human Torch to be black

In the movie setting they’re aliens so it doesn’t be matter in the least bit. Not like it’s an accurate retelling of classical
Norse myths.

Not even nationality. Even within my county here there's differences in perceived 'race', facial features,accents, etc. Never mind the weirdoes across the border or in Birmingham or Staffs.

By bandying everyone together as 'white' you're dismissing an immense variation of culture, appearances ,accents and dialects, etc.

Is, is this an advanced troll? Because I can't believe someone was this slow on why those swaps wouldn't work.

That actually depends on how deep you go into the lore. They're actually alien thoughtforms who, entirely unknown to them, have molded themselves to match the characters of man's legends. That's why Thor and Loki remember the events of those myths differently sometimes: there's more than one version of the myth and each of them acclimated to a different version. They're not aware of this, btw. They all believe they really are who they think they are.

If you go with the surface level "these are Aesir" then there's no reason he couldn't be black. If you go with the deepest comics lore of "these are beings which have adapted to the ideas that norsemen had about gods" then he actually shouldn't be black.
Not that I actually care about that, I liked Idris Elba's Heimdall.

>Nick Fury, however, pokes a hole in your theory. Nothing about Nick Fury *needs* to be white, but there was definitely an uproar around Sam Jackson's casting.

There wasn't really. Since he's based on the Ultimate one that was always black. The uproar came with the hamfisted attempt to make 616 Nick Fury black.

Actually there WAS a big stink about casting a white chick, saw it myself. The SJWs were pretty mad about it.

It was both. They were happy because they love her alien looking ass, until people that know about the comics told them the Ancient one was originally Asian then it became problematic.

There was. The fact that the movies went with Ultimate Fury did cause butthurt when his casting was announced, way back before he actually appeared in the role at the end of Iron Man 1. The complaints about introducing Nick Jr happened considerably later, after Avengers came out. And for the record, Marvel did not attempt to make 616 Nick Fury black. They just introduced a new character based on Earth-199999 Nick Fury. Ma Fury's boy is still as white as he ever was.

OP reminds me of one of my video essays Youtubers that I watch, What the fuck are you doing on Sup Forums Ex-chainsaw guy? This place is awful.

War Machine's race is not at all integral to his character.

>being this derp

Reed and Ben aren't blood related. The biological siblings aspect makes the Storms special.

>muh adoption

The most unrealistic part of that movie was the idea of a little white baby girl adopted by a black family, and that's taking in mind the stretchy guy and orange rock dude. Not saying it is wrong for them TO adopt her or anything, but the really young white kids go fast at the orphanage.

Nah, there are characters whose whiteness is integral to them.

>Bruce Wayne
>Tony Stark
>Stephen Strange
>Peter Parker
>Reed Richards
>Brian Braddock
>Oliver Queen
>Fantomex
>Steve Rogers
And that's off the top of my head.

True. There is no discussion here. You are right.

>You know, I just got it. I just got why race and gender swaps of white characters are generally more accepted than race and gender swaps of black characters.
They're not, everybody had a shitfit when rumors came around over the fact that Homecoming supposedly race swapped Mary Jane.

Thing is, this type of shit is seen as politically charged. One side accepts race swaps and others don't.

It depends on how iconic the character is. Nobody cared that Liz Allen was mixed, they cared when it was Mary Jane

what if punisher was black?

he'd be Blade without vampire powers.

>After tough-as-nails detective Franklin Castle's family is gunned down by white nationalists, he decides to take matters into his own hands

So races are different and discrimination is justified?

Or more unique about it, black people are less likely do adopt a kid that's not related to them, and even less likely to adopt trans racially.

Why couldn't they make Johnny and Sue biracial siblings?

This
>Whites don't have a history of Urbanism
Lots of Whites (honestly a label I find trite and somewhat meaningless) have a history of living in urban environments in the USA and still do. Italians, Irish, Slavs, Jews, even Germans to an extent.

So yes, you could have Luke Cage as an Italian or Irish guy. Just the "blaxplotation" angle would need to be dropped.

>There are writers at this point who now actively do not write non-white characters anymore because they feel diversity has become so cliche and run of the mill they feel the need to balance things out, so shit like raceswapping only further fuels the divide between races.
You know, if you make a good point, and then say something this retarded, it almost would have been better if you had said nothing at all.

>Italians, Irish, Slavs, Jews, even Germans to an extent.
That, plus Greeks. Them and Italians were treated basically the same, during the time the Irish started moving up.

In the movie it does matter because the Asgardians should have a uniform aesthetic. Ebris looks retarded dressed like Robin Hood. It's like putting a White guy in a feather dress but justifying it because "they are alians, so who cares lol."

>should have a uniform aesthetic
Are you aware that there are both Aesir and Vanir in Asgard? Is Hogunn the Grim a problem for you? Then why should Heimdall be? Thor's brother is a Frost Giant, by the way, and Thor's mother is an Earth Giant (not Frigga, though they haven't touched on that in the movies yet). Should Thor look biracial since he's only half Aesir? Then why should Heimdall be white? Oh, there was a latina Valkyrie in Thor: Ragnarok also.
In fact, if you look closely at this pic, you'll find that Heimdall and Hogunn aren't the only nonwhites in Asgard.

ironically Tilda Swinton is apparently part of a rare bloodline of Celtic. I forgot what it is, but there are less than a hundred of them worldwide.

and yet not "diverse" enough.

Hogun isn't an Asgardian.

Asgardian isn't a race. Aesir and Vanir are the races, and Hogun is a Vanir.

>races are different
Yes. Roughly.

>discrimination is justified
No.

>It's like putting a White guy in a feather dress but justifying it because "they are alians, so who cares lol."
I have no problem with this.

You might not. I (and many others) find it silly given the context.
And both those groups look similar. Your point? It's like comparing Norwegians to Swedes. Yes they are different. But not "Black guy vs White guy" tier.

The whole contex is silly to begin with.

>outrage farming
When will mods ban that shit?

>Thus stems all the identity politics bullshit of this decade.
It's so easy to tell how someone never started thinking about politics or social issues until they saw some dude on YouTube ranting about da ess jay dubyas.

>pissing off white people while doing it.
But black people didn't like it and the only black guy that made a FF movie kept the siblings canonically white. How does this happen? Same deal with King Arthur 2004 and 2016. Black director: all white cast
White director: black and asian supporting cast.

But race lifting Asgardians makes it stupider.

>Your point?
There. I'm pointing.
Asgard is not a homogenous population.
HINT: THE RED ARROWS ARE TRYING TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING

No. No it doesn't.

On an a sidenote, i grew up on Peter Madsen's Valhalla comics. Marvels whole take on the norse gods makes me nerd rage a little inside, every time the subjects come up.

This shit right here is what you're not supposed to do. Don't make it all about his goddamned race. His origin story should stay the same; his family gets caught in a crossfire between mobsters; easy as that.

He actually was once. For several issues, even.
A plastic surgeon had to patch his face back together and was told to alter his appearance so whatever gang/mob he was after wouldn't recognize him and the plastic surgeon somehow made him black. He even teamed up with Luke Cage for a few issues.

The story pissed off pretty much everyone. Group A was mad that they made Punisher black, Group B was mad about how Frank reacted when he saw his new face in the mirror. Marvel, at the time, was acting like it was going to be a permanent change but it went away by the time that arc was over.

I thought his family was targeted due to his part in a rogue government op?

Multiple origins.
Is he even still a Vietnam vet? Or have they upgraded him to Desert Storm or Afghanistan yet?

>Peter
>Strange

How? Peter seems like your typical middle class teen who has to learn about the facts of life. Shit that cuts across all races. Not all blacks are raised in ghetto neighborhoods with drug dealers on every corner.

I don't follow strange much, but his story always seems to start at the height of his medical career. Unless the monks he trained with were racist against darkies. You could swap him out with Ben Carson and get the same result.

I could kinda see those two from their orginial creation, but with the ~10 year rubber band at this point segregation wouldn't even be a factor for them