Animation Industry Critiques

Is the whole off-model thing overblown by the internet? Is it actually a tool of artistic freedom that folks unfairly shit on? Are we too hard on the animation industry?

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What is there to be misinformed about? They are off-model and change height from scene to scene. It is objectively lazy.

Isn't it literally only Steven Universe people were complaining about anyway? Why the fuck are people in the industry getting so defensive over that show?

It works with shows that are supposed to be surreal (like Uncle Grandpa and to an extent Flapjack)

/thread

Cause they don't want to accept that they're shit

I don't consider myself a great artist, but my eye is trained well enough to tell that these SU/OKKO-type storyboard artists are not putting in the effort they could be. Especially with the simple-ass art styles they're working with, it's very easy to maintain a certain quality. Do these guys honestly believe they're anime/2D Disney animators or something? They are not working with realistic to semi realistic proportions here, just noodle-limbed, blocky characters.

Heck, these guys aren't even doing much animating in the first place given all that goes to the Koreans. What would THEY know about animation?

Also: literally who?

all this on-model/off-model shit wouldnt even be an issue if the artists in question didnt have such poor fundamentals to begin with

We need to compile a list of all these shithead "artists" who think they shouldn't be held to any standards at all.

Because it's apparently the pinnacle of "progressiveness" and needs to be protected and praised at all costs. Questionable morality and poorly executed themes aside.

no because koreans do it for you anyway

Yeah, don't think I need to spend four years and 150k+ in loans to see that this shit is just going too far and misuses being off-model for a purpose.

I like how these lazy hipster pieces of shit getting free rides off daddy's money just assume everyone criticizing them is unemployed or has no idea how providing a service for an employer works. I wonder what would happen if a client told me the steam pipes I just lazily slapped into the ceiling are crooked and I gave them a vague lecture that they are "grossly misinformed" rather than actually informing them of a mitigating factor they didn't know about that justifies the apparent mistake or fixing my lazy fucking mistake.

Animation is just getting lazier by the year. A good portion of current shows have cookie cutter models, and to cut costs programs now usually run 15 mins. It's art, so yeah, people have a right to critique.

>Why the fuck are people in the industry getting so defensive over that show?

Because its core fanbase is the LGBTQ+. They've never been not-defensive. It's like the opposite of Star Wars and Star Trek fans who tear everything town. They practically hold everything that "represents" them up.

So are every fucking hack storyboarder of this garbage show gonna make the same tweet about how they dindunothing and clearly having so much complain about precise technical aspect proves they are "trolls" ?

>too off model and you get the PPG professor utonium
>too on model and you get korean animated shit like the recent simpsons

Stop trying to justify this shit. These lazy hacks did not bother to follow a height chart, this has nothing to do with trying to find a happy medium between on-model and off-model. Ed Edd and Eddy never followed static models and no one gives it shit because the artists involved cared about their work and put in the effort to make it look good.

Not trying to justify them.
In fact i didn't even know what show they were referring to.
This isn't Sup Forums, you can't post tweets from literally who.

Just saying that both are shit, off-modeling has a purpose and these people clearly don't understand it

Here we have it again, the typical geek mentality of "IT'S SHIT IF IT'S NOT 100% PERFECT"

As soon as there is a mistake, or repeated mistake the creators are lazy hacks. Any only you, a smart person who knows animation (likely without ever having worked in that industry), can point it out!

Characters changing sizes! The nerve! Who cares if they generally keep their relative sizes, who cares if those mistakes are just there for a moment! Your Argus' eye has to rewarded!

>Who cares if they generally keep their relative sizes
They don’t even do that much

Pretty much this. These fucks bitch about animation knowledge know-how but seem to greatly misunderstand the exaggeration principle while completely forgetting the solid drawing and staging principles.

putting bets down on "standards and quality are racist & misogynistic", or "the alt right wants animators to stay on model" articles in the next few days

It has a purpose, I agree.

Its purpose is to keep the effort-to-wage ratio as much in favor of the animator as possible.

>Are we too hard on eh animation industry?
The problem are these "critics" making a fool of themselves by trying to appear sophisticated and professional. At the core of the motivation behind the criticism is that the art is ugly and the inconsistent models being jarring for the viewing experience. That much is true for them. They need to stop saying stupid shit like questioning the professionalism of actual animators in the industry and just be honest about their position as the audience.

Normally I would think of it as an overreaction, but at some point you've got to draw the line on how much is too much, and Steven Universe has crossed that line on a few different occasions. There's nothing wrong with going a bit off-model from time to time, but there's also nothing wrong with getting a reminder that you should be showing at least SOME restraint.

Because it's not the only show that does it but is the only show where people bitch about it.

i hate how all the vocal animators or comic authors are all tumblr snowflakes and we never hear from anyone with real experience. I'm tired of hearing from the people who value creativity and expression over having a clean end product.

I already unfollowed gettavento earlier on for ranting about strawman. It's bad enough my friends are liking/RT'ing such dribble, I don't need to see it on Sup Forums as well.

Frankly, I see it as two different meanings of the term.

The kind that actually shows off an artist/animator's style, or exaggerates movements or expressions for the sake of humor or action.

And the one that most of us are railing against- unintentionally misshapen characters, layering errors, stuff being wrongly colored in (nor not even colored in), characters depicted at the wrong height, that sort of thing.

And while it's already bad enough that it happens to shows with detailed art styles (think any 80s/90s shows, for instance), shows with simpler styles like The Simpsons, Steven Universe and OK! KO seem to have even lower standards than usual. Proving that no one on those shows' respective staffs give a shit.

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>generally keep their relative sizes
Good fucking joke CN storyboarder. Hey while you're at it why don't you tell your OVERSEAS SUPERVISOR to tell the Koreans to fix your shitty drawings

I don't understand what's going on.
People have been criticizing the off model stuff in SU since it started, but in the last few days there's suddenly been a surge of people complaining about the complaints, and linking them to that fanartist's attempted suicide and zuke's breakdown

>i hate how all the vocal animators or comic authors are all tumblr snowflakes and we never hear from anyone with real experience.

Because they're concentrating on their jobs and already disregard the vocal artists as mediocre drama queens.

They don't agree with your definition of "quality." It's very easy to put out Family Guy/He-Man-style work. Work that expresses the personality of the storyboarder is more interesting and pleasant to the eye.

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There have been very few new episodes for a long time so people have run out of positive things to say. That, and the size issues in SU really have gotten worse

It is very likely that some E-celebrity likely made a Youtube-video. And you know about Youtube babbies, they really cannot contain themselves and voice thier opinions in a reasonable manner, they will jump like agressive sharks because thier Führer told them something is bad.

We have regressed. Anime is taking over by the turn of the decade.

>Why the fuck are people in the industry getting so defensive over that show?
because they know theyre equally guilty and projecting their insecurities because they've never been called out on their shit art before.
if they could take critique maybe their art wouldn't suck so much

DeviantArt.jpg

I want someone to promise him a Rockwell painting "reprint" and send him a kids drawing in its stead.

Hey guys:
half assing it is ok

Didn't Sugar say she was encouraging her borders to push they're own styles. In that case it's not laziness, but argueably a bad decision.

Playing loose with animation styles works well for surrealistic, episodic shows like Flapjack and Space Dandy.
However Steven Universe is narrative driven with strong continuity. Having the characters appearance change constantly messes with that.

I've literally studied animation - Granted it was in the thirld world, but I had the privilege to learn alongside our top animator and he had entire lectures about the importance of not fucking up your models.

Because when you DO go off model it has an impact. It is a tool you reach in very specific situations. To say all off model is bad is to not to tell the whole tale:
Going off model will confuse the audience about the characters heights, designs. In practice, you are murdering and destroying the design.

For what end, in particular?
Let's exaime Steven Universe real quick.
Peridot and Steven size changing as well their base model - It's shit. I can't tell you what Steve is supposed to look like anymore I got like 4-5 version per episode for fuck's sake.

To hijack discourse to lord over "uh hu people bitching about off model know nothing about muh animation" only proves to me what I already knew from their art: They are incompetent and think highly about themselves.

A tool is only as good as the context to use it.

>Work that expresses the personality of the storyboarder is more interesting and pleasant to the eye.

If your "personality" is "lazy as fuck and can't do good work", then I'd rather not see it shine through in your work. Actually, I'd rather you be fired.

Are you the same dipshit who used to namefag as "guy" here like a decade ago complaining about ugly you think ATLA is because it looks like anime? Would be amusing to see such a subhuman come back and try to defend this tumblr garbage.

I value creativity and expression a lot. These idiots are not being creative or expressive, they're just lazy.

Didn't they? If they didn't, they did a heck of a job keeping them all looking the same.

Mhm. I'm tired of people `criticizing it for being lazy rather than criticizing it for being a bad directorial decision. It's not something they're doing because of a lack of effort. It's a deliberate effect they're going for that's just...not a very good one.

>yfw MUH STYLE people are in the industry
off model is fine when you're using it to exaggerate different moods, or even to show the styles of different artists
but the problem is when they go off model in the same episode

I agree with a lot of people here, but I think the way it's being said is why so many people shrug it off or get really defensive about it.

Threads like these definitely don't help.

The reason these artists are so defensive about subjectivity and the celebration of ill constructed art, is because they're insecure. This is the first line of defense in bauhaus, the part that gets artists to independently buy into it.

Essentially, a true artist works beyond themselves to create a work with a specific vision that they oblige to bring to life as best as they can. This is why, when done correctly, art that's supposed to look flawed will still look presentable and good, because its purposeful and part of the mise en scene. Controlled chaos. However, many artists are ego driven and feel sensitive about their work, and so use the suggestion of art being subjective as a crutch.

If the work presents itself as cool, aloof, and apathetic, in their minds, it elevates them above criticism. However, what they don't understand is if they don't care, the audience doesn't care either. You know the saying "its the little things that matter?" well that's true, people notice the little things both when they're right, and when they're done wrong. When they're done right, it brings the audience closer to a transcendent and universal vision that the artist has successfully communicated.

When they notice the things that are wrong, this is an erosion of immersion. It destroys the illusion, and these artists use this as a way to not actually compete with real, genuine art. "Its ironically bad, so it cant ACTUALLY be bad, right?"

This is the work of weak, visionless artists with overfed egos. They have nothing to truly say, and so their work reflects this wether they're aware of this or not.

how very enlightened, like 6 random insults and ad hominem in a a 2 line comment. and i bet you wonder why creators don't take your high quality advice into account.

I meant they made sure the characters were very expressive in pretty much every scene, of course they had model sheets but the designs and storyboards were very dynamic.

>my job is so hard! give me a break
i hate these cunts, working in the entertainment industry is a privilege. you don't HAVE to work there you GET to work there. so quit your bitching because there are millions of others who want to be there and if you can't even try your best you don't belong there

I kinda like the slight variance in boarder styles because it's not too distracting, I just want them to fix the fucking heights and the occasional weird way some boarders draw certain stuff

I notice you didn't deny the accusation.

going off model probably slows down the animation process too

He's right about the smears.

I mean they can be abused like anything but they've been a part of the animation toolkit for decades.

Same for going off-model but I would say that's been abused recently.

>It's a deliberate effect they're going for

Looks more like a series of major glaring errors. I think you're mistaken.

This. Criticism is good, noone is above it, but when people are assholes about it, people don't want to listen to them.

Want these boarders to improve? Try being nice about it. They're just gonna get defensive and push back, otherwise.

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No shit he's right about smears. Is anyone even criticizing the concept of animation smears?

>Reasonable concerned citizen: Hey your fucking cartoon looks like dogshit you can't even keep the heights straight what's wrong with you?
>Retard fucking tumblr animator changing the subject: Uh, hmm, well the sky is blue you have to give me that right?
>You: He... he's right! The sky is blue!

they're just trying to match toriyama's art style change lol

The problem is for they few people that are able to articulate why something looks bad there are ten times more that can see that the thing looks bad but don't have the technical understanding as to why and theyre often a lot more visible the more coherent criticism. It shouldn't invalidate their feelings towards that thing though.

Cartoons have never had bigger budgets, these people are fucking delusional.

>conflating animation errors, poor form/construction, lack of fundamentals etc etc with "smears and inbetweens are QUALITY XD" so you can refute it without actually refuting it

Someone is being disingenuous on Twitter and it is a day that ends in Y

You heard it here! Everyone on the internet with the same opinion has to get organized and agree to be nice about it, as a bloc. Otherwise the retarded spoiled children who get paid to half-ass everything they do will get upset! Of course, said retarded spoiled children are under no obligation to ever be nice about anything. Even though they're the ones using their real names and professional identities, and would be fucking fired immediately in any industry that isn't a playground for rich kids.

i feel like he just stuck it in despite the majority of complaints not being about it so as to make everything else he's saying look less unreasonable

I definitely agree. This is the thing about this whole argument that bugs me. When these artists bring up things like budgets and time constraints, that doesn't invalidate someone's opinion on whether or not it looks good. I just think someone SHOULD try to articulate why, rather than just being a douche about it, since that just brings out the worst in both sides.

I'm just as angry that these overgrown children are able to get away with posting such unprofessional horseshit using their professional identities with absolutely no repercussions as I am that they're making shitty cartoons in the first place.

I can't believe you are so dedicated that you are able to put this fucking thing in every fucking thread on this stupid website

>if the artists weren't shit, the art wouldn't be shit

Their career depend on it

Both sides of the issue exemplify the root problem of this: they can't, or don't want to, have a real dialogue or debate here. As soon as they get upset, they get angry, resort to insults, and get the same response, and so on and so on.

Not that it's a recent issue or anything. It's as old as cavement. It's just that thanks to the internet we get to see it happen from all kinds of people and ideologies.

>same episode

>Sup Forums is one person
>Only a single person has this image on their hard drive

Are you retarded or ignorant.

>using Twitter
Be a part of the solution and stop using such a horrible website. The website is designed to constrain people's opinions so that they sound oversimplified and stupid. At least other websites don't constrict your statements with a puny 280 character limit. Frankly I think this website should ignore twitter because it's verbal polio. We have more than plenty of our own diseases.

yup

Smears and off model are fine, but choices have the be deliberate. The problem with SU (and it is literally ONLY Steven Universe in discussion here) is that there’s this inconsistency with the characters themselves. In character design, form == function, so when design isn’t consistent, guess what? Character isn’t consistent. And when the MAIN DRAW to your show is STRONG CHARACTER WRITING, it’s a bigass problem when your characters constantly change shape.

Steven is either a harmless 8 year old way in over his head or a sheltered 15 year old hippie from episode to episode. Is Connie a dorky bookworm or a bubbly teenage girl? Is Peridot an adorable gremlin or a haughty shit? Is Lapis a loney autist or a depressed cunt?

Who knows, because these characters are written, drawn, and animated differently from episode to episode with not even the slightest hint of continuity or development. You have showrunners and series bibles for the express purpose of solidifying that continuity and consistency, so that when you want to morph the character models or develop a design or play off a new idea, the viewers will notice rather than chalking it up to yet another error.

It isn’t the end of the world, but it is a problem with SU as a show. For what it’s worth OK KO understands how/when to deform character models way better, and the nonserious comedic/action driven plots make it easier to roll with whatever weirdness happens.

If I felt the urge to write a long rant about how fucking lazy I am and it's totally okay for me to take a dump on a page and submit that as my work for the day and anyone who doesn't like it is a fat nerd and should go fuck themselves, I would either say it anonymously or just not fucking say it because I would be afraid of my boss tracing it back to me and firing me. Why aren't these people being held accountable by their employers? They are literally bragging about not doing their jobs while lashing out at customers.

When did I say that?

It's not asking too much for EVERYONE to be professional about it. The thing is, these animators are RESPONDING to the people being assholes. It's not like someone said "Hey, look, I made Connie short and gave her a fucking watermelon head because FUCK YOU Sup Forums!"

But guess what, when they see posters being assholes about it, they're gonna do it more out of spite. Do you want that?

please cry more

Oh, is it no longer cool to be a geek again? Or is it just nerd chic that's still in vogue?

Defending such blatant laziness is the result of folks who have probably never had to hear a dissenting opinion about their work their entire lives.

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nah fuck that shit
these fuckers went through art school with everyone being too nice, too scared to hurt their feelings to give them any kind of criticism. Thats why everything is in the state that it is. There was nobody to point out the flaws in what they were doing so they were never able work past them and improve. Thats why theyre so defensive about it now, they've gotten this far into their career only for people to finally point out that theyre not as good as they think they are

>Want these boarders to improve? Try being nice about it. They're just gonna get defensive and push back, otherwise.
people only care about criticism when their job depends on it

>It's not asking too much for EVERYONE to be professional about it.

So if literally one person on the entire internet is mean to a storyboarder that justifies them to disregard all criticisms because "le everyone should be professional, except the actual professionals"? Fuck you, you fucking retard.

>The thing is, these animators are RESPONDING to the people being assholes.

No they aren't. They are the ones who escalated this by attacking people for posting legitimate criticism. Even if they weren't, they are the ones who have their identities on the line and are technically "professionals". They should be sticking to the facts and keeping their fucking mouths shut if they don't have anything productive to say, not lashing out at the void.

If a thing look good that's good but if a thing look bad that's bad

Looks bad a lot of the time

>Want these boarders to improve? Try being nice about it. They're just gonna get defensive and push back, otherwise.

They'll get defensive if you give them sugarcoated feedback anyway. Some people just don't want to improve.

Is someone flooding their DMs and personal email with this stuff? Just ignore it, jfc cartoonists are babies.

why do you think you know the first thing about these people's lives? Everything you're saying is a weird, distorted projection. This is very embarrassing to read.

>But guess what, when they see posters being assholes about it, they're gonna do it more out of spite. Do you want that?

How does this work in your head? In what possible human scenario are the animators not justified in being condescending lazy pieces of shit, according to your insane code of ethics? If every random person on the internet gets together and calmly puts together a list of grievances, THEN they're allowed to speak to the elite animator overlords? But if one single person is slightly impolite to our gracious gods of animation, then they are entirely justified in ignoring all criticism and throwing shit everywhere like stupid animals? You are constructing a fictional concept of reality where the animators are always right no matter what and everyone else is always wrong and it's really fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain! Fuck you!

Chill out, sperg, I never said it justifies them to disregard all criticisms. I said that's what HAPPENS, not that it's right. The reason I said it was because we should WANT to prevent people disregarding criticism. One negative will lead to ANOTHER negative.

The people in the industry should be professionals too.

Or CGI

>Is someone flooding their DMs and personal email with this stuff?

At this point we certainly should be! We should be flooding their boss's emails with quotes of how proud they are of being lazy too!

Okay bro, funny how many people who work in actual adult industries can respond to customers without melting the fuck down and calling them retarded nerds for having an opinion about the quality of their work. Funny how it's only industries dominated by spoiled rich children that have this problem!

Is there a reason why this is only just now becoming an issue? Hasn't the show been like this since the beginning? Or has it gotten worse over time?