Why do fanboys become so upset when directors like Johnson or Snyder deconstruct their heroes?

There's so much backlash whenever a director decided to deconstruct the mythos of a franchise

is the place for star wars movie discussion.

Deconstruction really works well when it comes tothe deconstruction of Genres.

Only time I think a deconstruction of a specific series was probably Barbie's Dreamhouse.

the only thing they gave deconstruct are they careers

"subverting" a subject is fine but if it doesn't work on it's own it isn't that good.

>deconstruct
>deconstruct
I don't think you know what that word means.

mark hamil was super pissed when he actually saw the movie.

...

Fuck off Rian.

They get upset when the deconstruction is shit and poorly done. Snyder and Rian are hacks and their attempts at deconstruction are embarrassing trash.

I guess Sup Forums is tired of discussing Star Wars so they're coming here to discuss Star Wars.

Nice link

That's not what happened, he mentioned he didn't agree with the direction they took Luke since he felt it was OOC for Luke to seclude himself in a planet after what happened with Ben Solo. But he also realized that these new movies were about a new generation of characters and not focused on the OT characters so he understood why they did it.

I am guessing he's feeling pretty lukewarm about TLJ.

He literally says almost verbatim he considers Disney Luke to be an entirely alternate different Luke from the original trilogy.

Lets not use the term "deconstruct"

What Johnson did, or attempted to do if you prefer, was show that Star Wars is about regular people. Luke is not some child of prophecy that fixes everything forever. He was a just a farm boy that got swept up in an incredible adventure.

They'd be fine with it if the movie wasn't full of plot holes, dropped storylines, and unsatisfying resolutions. People like deconstructions when they're good.

Because fan culture is a mental illness. It's not even genuine enthusiasm anymore, it's just idol worship, eager to turn on "blasphemers" wo dare to treat their material critically. I love Batman v Superman and I like Last Jedi. I stand by that.

>deconstruct
might wanna look into the meaning of the word friendo. In no way Luke was deconstructed, they inverted what made Luke, the character he is.

The Last Jedi wasn't a deconstruction of anything. It was still a Star Wars story about heroes and villains and epic adventures, centring it around failure and learning from your mistakes is not "deconstruction."

And BvS sucked because it was a deconstruction of version of the characters that have no relation to their actual existence. They were OC's that happened to be named Batman and Superman, so they don't actually function as exploring their concepts.

>literally says almost verbatim

>dropped storylines, and unsatisfying resolutions

It's sloppy, but according to Johnson when he came on board nobody knew where any of J.J.'s mysteries were going. He dropped all that shit for some body else to work out.

I know I won't be watching JJ return for IX, but I'll give Johnson's new Star Wars movies a chance.

>learning from your mistakes
at what point did this happen in the new movies?

Yes, he went from "hopeful, upright guy" to haggard, resentful recluse reluctant to help.
Just like Obi Wan
Just like Yoda.

What bothers MH is that Luke's character wasn't frozen in carbonite, that a lot of years passed and he was no longer a shadow of that hopeful young guy. Says a lot for the Jedi system.

Rey learned that she can't define herself by her parents and needs to make her own destiny. She's made her life about imagining who her parents were and let herself stall in place because of that, but she needs something more to live for.

Finn learned that he can't just run away and has to actualyl join the Resistance, lest he become an amoral scumbag ala DJ.

Poe had the most obvious arc in the movie, hothead to leader.

That is not deconstruction. That is just reversal and just outright evisceration of a established character. Luke is a farmboy who got the worst shit thrown at him and yet he still stood with his own feet, he was someone who doesn't give on someone just because they are evil and someone who knows that everyone have evil and good inside them.
Hack directors and writes utterly fails at portraying "deconstruction" and their dumb audience just gobble it up because they it makes them look intelligent.

It's just a shitty movie with bad writing, dropped story-lines, needless cynicism, unnecessary deconstruction of characters meant for a young kids adventure stories.Luke was a hero, and he became a lonely, broken old man. Han was a heroic leader that completed his journey from smuggler to war general, and now is a divorcee smuggler who got murdered by his kid who joined the space alt right.

Star Wars is a very small, very limited setting. The EU expanded things slowly, and at least HEIR TO THE EMPIRE was good.

I understand that you couldnt do Heir to the Empire, but this was like an angry kid shitting on Star Wars.

>Says a lot for the Jedi system

The one big takeaway from the Prequels is that the Jedi were their own ruin by thinking that detaching themselves from humanity was the path to being enlightened. That system was bound to lead to people like Anakin blowing up.

>Rey learned that she can't define herself by her parents and needs to make her own destiny.
That's just an abandoned plotpoint and lucky they can use to it to give character to a literal walking plank of wood.
>Finn learned that he can't just run away and has to actualyl join the Resistance, lest he become an amoral scumbag ala DJ.
He already did. What was most boggling is that he shows no remorse in mowing down his former allies in mass, if anything he should have learned what it is to fight for a belief and what the realities of a conflict is. Now he has a ugly asian waifu and they did nothing important. they are now Jar jar binks part 2.
>Poe had the most obvious arc in the movie, hothead to leader.
Too bad he was justified. It was dumb of purple bitch to conceal the plan and even when Finn mutinied she refused to tell him. It was just a stupid attempt of portraying a "smart woman leader and finn is hothead dum dum".

Exactly. And Luke burning out trying to emulate it.
It's akin to trying to teach kids abstinence so they can eventually learn to levitate chairs, when having crazy sex allows them to shoot lightning and shit.

Is "deconstruct" the new word for when you mean to destroy something?

I dont think so.
For a thousand generations the Jedi protected the fucking Republic, and they did so with aplomb and dignity, with their traditions that lasted for unknown millenia.

This means they STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. Their way worked. The only way they lost was because of an incredibly contrived plan where an incredibly powerful sith lord, magically created an ability to mask his force powers and his appearance; then infiltrated the Republic's highest echelons of power, and somehow engineered the downfall of the entire Jedi Order.

Which, by the way, came down to the fact that the Jedi Masters had sent too few Jedi to deal with Palpatine.

Had the Jedi sent one more Jedi or had reinforcements or strategy beyond 'confront chanecellor', or Anakin had arrived two minutes late, there would have been no Emperor.

Snyder didn't deconstruct Superman. That was fake news.

>very small, very limited setting
>hundreds of planets and characters
user, please think about things instead of regurgitating what you saw on Half in the Bag.

>That's just an abandoned plotpoint and lucky they can use to it to give character to a literal walking plank of wood.

So?

>He already did.

No he didn't, he only went to the Starkiller because his waifu was there.

>Too bad he was justified

They both made mistakes, I don't get why people don't understand this. They keep stating voer and over how this mvoie is about failure and miscommunication and people still scream about le stronk tumblr woman just because she has purple hair.

How can I get this job?

Obi Wan and Yoda also went through some really hellish shit and went into recluse as old men.
People change when they get older, people can deal with stress and trauma better when they're younger than when they're older.
And Luke immediately getting over the brutal murder of his family was always just shitty writing.

>So?
So the "don't define yourself in your parents" narrative is never the intent, the whole parent view was just abandoned.
>No he didn't, he only went to the Starkiller because his waifu was there
Also there was a system killing weapon there, and if that was truly the case, then shame he is still a nigger tier character. He could have been one of the better characters in the trainwreck.
>le stronk tumblr woman just because she has purple hair
That's what she is.
Poe is the only one that got a repercussion it looked like she didn't make any mistake. She came out smelling good.

>So the "don't define yourself in your parents" narrative is never the intent, the whole parent view was just abandoned.

Who cares what the intent was? The execution of the story tiself matters.

>Poe is the only one that got a repercussion it looked like she didn't make any mistake. She came out smelling good.

...she's dead, m8.

The Vice-Admiral is absolutely in the wrong. She has chance after chance to explain herself, literally even just say there IS plan instead of the bullshit about hope. Hope doesn't get you away from the goddamn First Order.

Even if you say she was teaching Poe a lesson, as soon as he mutinied and started actively fucking up their chances of the plan working that's when you let him in on the plan. The only way I could even begin to accept the stupidity is if they originally had in a spy for the First Order being on the ship subplot, so the leadership COULDN'T reveal their plan. Otherwise it is a gross negligence that she didn't tell Poe a single fucking thing and while Poe acted against orders those orders were literally sit, wait, and watch the fuel run out. That seemed a suicidal move by someone put into a position of leadership who shouldn't have fucking been there.

Obi-Wan and Yoda hid cause theynwere being hunted down, not because they failed and got depressed. The moment Obi-Wan got the message from Leia he and Luke took off to save her. Obi-Wan was NOTHING like Luke was in The Last Jedi a tall. Neither was Yoda.

Fuck, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into seclusion to wait for a good opportunity to overthrow the Empire if you care about the prequels.

Even if you don't and just look at the OT, sure they were both recluses but almost immediately opened up and started to teach Luke how to do shit. They didn't want to die, they just though it was hohpeless.

>limited setting
user is refering to how small the window of ideas the executives are willing to let through. Most people don't really care about Star Wars and are only jumping in the bandwagon. They are the majority of the consumers but producers marked them as people who only likes what is familiar, so they can only show things that are "Star Wars" the ships, lightsabers, the falcon, planet killing super weapons and storm troopers. Its a marketing narrative that unfortunately takes precedence in the production of the series.

>Who cares what the intent was?
People who aren't gullible fucks.
>The execution of the story tiself matters.
Its fucking retarded.
>...she's dead, m8.
and? her oversized clit was massaged and nothing else.

And that's why I like the last jedi, now we can do things differently like the eu

The point of Luke's character is that he was supposed to change shit, he was meant to build something different that would avoid making people like Yoders and Benny.

Actually I don't see any deconstruction from Snyder, it's more how Lex Luthor sees Superman: a fucking alien god.

Johnson is just fucking retarded who didn't even watched Star Wars.

It's not even deconstruction. He just finished the arc.

That was never a point of Luke's character. That's some shit about Vader from the shitty prequels that you transfered to Luke in your fanfiction head canon.

Bro, in case I didnt make it plain, I've seen more Star Wars than most. I've read most of the Extended Universe, I've played a ton of Star Wars games, and done a lot.

It has a thousand thousand planets, and many species, but ultimately, Star Wars ends up being a small setting. I realized that after thinking about it. Even in the best stories, it generally ends up being about the Empire, or the remnant of the Empire, or something along those lines SIMILAR to AN Empire, gaining power, and there's always a superweapon, a sun crusher, a death star, a starforge,Galaxy Gun,Ancient Secret Imperial Cache, ect.

There's always a scrappy group of heroes, there's always some shadowy neutrals on the margins that end up being relatively not horrible people in the end, and the story ends with the good guys beating the bad guys.

>now we can do things differently like the eu
They do nothing different than the EU and never will.
Kylo will be evil and Rey will be good. Fight the evil empire and win, they are just adding dumb nuances, but that is where it will end up.

The EU did more different things to the setting of Star Wars than Didney ever will. The EU made a better "Luke fall from grace", "bad side of the rebellion" and "good of the empire". Heck people drone on about he Vong, but their arc is the biggest kicker to the standard Star Wars tropes.

What about the PT?

...

You know, they could have actually done something different by having Rey fall to the dark side, and join Kylo Ren.

They could have 'ruled the galaxy as partners (or more)', throw away the rules the Jedi and Sith had, and bring order to the galaxy.

THAT would have been a fucking awesome ending.

>Mark shittalking the movie in interviewers and joking, “what are they gonna do? Fire me?”
>killed off so he pretty much was fired
At least he still has potential Joker bucks

why do people act like he's not gonna be force ghosting it up forever

>That was never a point of Luke's character
It was his character. He is the Returning Jedi that was "Not the last of the old, but the first of the new". Its okay to be contrarian but ignoring points for it just makes you look retarded.

The Prequel Trilogy DID try to expand the universe, but I think Lucas would have benefitted from a fucking editor. Someone who controlled his worst toytastic desires. A story where a trade dispute has led to a blockade where people are suffering in a planet?

That has fucking potential.

He seems pretty down to earth so he's probably fine with having enough money to pay for mansions and cars and boats until the day he dies.

What?
Did you not see ROTJ?

He was supposed to be the beginning of a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, as was fucking Yoda's will to him.

>girl protag being evil and doing evil shit for the "greater good"
Can't have that. What kind of role model would that be? Come, on its Disney. They personally slapped the hands of writers and directors trying to do something different and good just so that the franchise can stay on track as a "Disney Product".

Replace "deconstruct" with "shitting on" and you'll understand why there's backlash.

And is that way.

>implying they won’t CG him in if they need his ghost form
Shit, they could even just make a puppet.

Due to postmodernism, deconstruction has become so common as to be trite.

When nothing glitters and nothing is gold, life is dull and depressing.

Nah, Marky boy misses being a pop-culture icon also he is a big nerd. It irks him that he can longer do the joker voice for long due to his age.

Snyder deconstructed Batman and Superman in the same way that Al Qaeda deconstructed the World Trade Centre.

>Come, on its Disney. They personally slapped the hands of writers and directors trying to do something different and good just so that the franchise can stay on track as a "Disney Product".

So you just can't have any meaningful conversation about media produced by Disney, can you? It doesn't matter if if they get Rian fucking Johnson to direct a SW movie, it's still Disney Product and you brian can't engage with it on any other level.

Something tells me of this exact same movie, shot for shot, frame for frame, came out of any non-Disney studio you wouldn't be whining about formula and product.

"Might as well be Jake Skywalker"

*U.S. Government

There's nothing with a deconstruction.
The problem is that The Last Jedi didnt even properly do it right.

All it did was shit on Han, Luke and Leia and their accomplishments. It's like an impetuous child shitting on their parents accomplishments. Han ended up being a loser smuggler again, and got killed by his rebellious edgy kid who joined the space alt right. Leia ended up alone and lost in her work, so much that she's a general in her 70's. Luke went from hero to zero , and failed in everything he did so fast and hard he didnt try again.

Oh, and the rebellion lost, because the First Order is stronger than fucking ever, with better technology, more resources, more people, and more everything.

This isnt a deconstruction. It's someone writing a "BAD END" epilogue.

Sure, I saw RotJ.

But you're talking EU bullshit.

>You heroes are flawed
>Makes them mumbling negligent idiots
To "deconstruct" is to pick apart, it implies that you can reconstruct. What they did was more or else take a sledgehammer and smash it into small debris.

The only worthwhile deconstruction comes from a place of love and they have to stand on their own two legs. Anything else is just a lower form of criticism.

Just saying "LOL WE SUBVERTED YOUR EXPECTATIONS FOR NO REASON GET FUCKED" is not clever or impressive at all.

i mean that's all stuff established in force awakens

>deconstruct
>automatically good
This is how post-modernists actually think.

you are entirely disregarding the point of why they can't do anything different with the franchise. it is because it is in the hand of disney, that is the point. Rey would only ever be a goody goody.
gee, what stick got stuck up your ass?

It would have been incredibly clever and different to have Rey fall to Kylo Ren, who basically says "Fuck the dark side, fuck the light side. Fuck the past. We now have the greatest power in the universe, with the largest army in the universe. We can do whatever we want, and bring order to the Galaxy."

It would have been amazing.
And Luke would have realized that he failed...TWICE. Once, nearly killing Kylo, and again, NOT training Rey.

His failure would have been complete.

THAT would have been a real surprise.

was it deconstruction? it felt more like an attack on nerds.

It was. Why do you think 'critics' loved it?

>Why do you think 'critics' loved it?

Because it was a good movie?

I think despite what others were saying that having Luke become like Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda before him was exactly the point, logically the justification was weak, they were different. But narratively that is all they cared about, him being the new Obi Wan and Yoda, the "circle of life."

I got what they did it, and I liked the old movie, but no, I didn't like the Luke thing. It is boring to have the exact same beats happen for me.

Like any critic ever loved a movie because it was good. It either aligns with their selfish interests or it serves an agenda they support. Critics liking good movies is purely coincidence.

.Like any critic ever loved a movie because it was good. It either aligns with their selfish interests or it serves an agenda they support. Critics liking good movies is purely coincidence.

calm down michael, I'm sure transformers 6 will be the good one this time

Fuck off, Rian.

Or maybe they did like the movie, and you're a nutcase who thinks everything has to be connected to an agenda or a conspiracy.

Hamill is pretty damned rich and had two iconic roles for generations, Luke and his Joker. I think he did very well and will be fine and happy in his giant mansions.

If they ever want him to appear he can just force ghost too so easy peasy whenever.

>deconstruct

That's a clever way of saying "a superficial and impoverished interpretation of how a supposed idea developed". It's a postmodern b.s. delivery system. Get over yourself

Tell that to the libtards screaming alt-right and russians trying to defend the film.

I think ultimately, it comes down to enjoyment, fun and what feels more Star Wars to you.

To be honest, after seeing Force Awakens, and Last Jedi, a friend of mine gifted me the Audible audiobooks of the Heir to the Empire.

I gotta say, they're ten times better, more exiting, and much more interesting than two new Star Wars movies.

I love how Moviebob made an exception for Angry Joe when Joe shat on the movie. Prior to that, he called everyone who hated the movie angry fanboys + Russian Alt Rights. He claimed that Angry Joe's opinions come from being honest, even though what Joe said isn't that different to what Half in the Bag thinks.

because they don't do it properly. now, what I want to know is... why does the OP shut off his brain?

Damn towards the end there he looks like hes ready to kick his ass.

Well give an example of a director actual deconstructing a mythos and then we'll talk.

Because the Deconstruction never spurs new creation, or if it does, the new creation is made with all the flaws of the deconstructed thing but none of it's purity.

Rey will never be a good 'First of the New Jedi" because what the fuck about her makes her more special than Luke? Nothing. Her efforts will be just as wasted, her Jedi just as doomed, her offspring/nephew/niece the next Dark Lord.

Are you sure he isn't actually jakewarm?

>deconstruct
This word is an easy way to know you're talking to a complete pseudointellectual.

Neither of them deconstructed the heroes. Snyder deconstructed the superheroic universe while Johnson simply posited the hero failed in the past.

Cuz 9/10 it's badly written and has little to know flow

I've had 30 years of people deconstructing all the shit I loved as a child

I'm tired of seeing things torn down, I want to see things be built up

>Deconstruction
>Hamill literally had to make up his own motivations and backstory for everything beyond "Muh Ben"
>Because nothing else existed

I don't think you know what "deconstruct" means.

Sup Forums why must you fall for such obvious b8