Suddenly Gay

>pic unrelated

So you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon, (anything Sup Forums related,) and a character is gay. But you didn't know it right away, you learn it through reading/watching a certain amount into it.

Let's assume the character doesn't have along hetero legacy, (because I get why a character like that becoming a homo would be forced.)

What are the pitfalls you notice writers fall into with these characters?

>being gay is all there is to the character from that point onward, (and possibly before it was confirmed)

>there were no signs of the character's gayness and suddenly gay, (or trans or whatever)

But then I got to thinking about the second one, what signs could be given that aren't playing into a stereotype, (and thus reaffirming my first complaint?)

tl;dr: how would you describe a well written gay character?

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REMINDER than Bendis WILL make Clark gay. He will divorce Lois and marry Steel.

>a well written gay character

no such thing. If the writers make reference to their gayness, people will cry about how their sexuality is forced and shoved down our throats. If there's no mention of their gayness, people will say it's out of character and superficial- calling the writing choice an asspull, and tokenistic. Criticism is inescapable

so its like all minority and female characters.

still, ignoring the mob. what do you think it should be like?

>how would you describe a well written gay character?
Midnighter.

Well its pretty simple there, Chomsky Honk. You see any good gay character is just like a well written heterosexual character; they're a character, who just so happens to like salad instead of soup. Now contrary to what tv and Lifetime might tell you, champ, is that gay people aren't some magical unicorn that leave happiness, positivity, and glitter in their wake. No, they're just as annoying as your regular comic book character and have the same tired out problems such as "My life is hard!" and "How can I balance being me and a hero?!". The only gay characters people seem to care about are Iceman and Midnighter aka freshly out and stick beater. So to answer your question, the moment a character or story makes its a priority to point out that they're gay or a person of color or whatever hot topic a whiny keyboard warrior wants to crusade against is the moment they become absolute shit and make me want to burn everything because people keep taking a fun hobby and make it a mouthpiece

>how would you describe a well written gay character
the gayness is never discussed, flaunted, argued, defended, or acknowledged except in the background. It does not become a significant part of the character because it is not a significant part of the character.
The only time I have seen it done properly is in a Godzilla comic of all things.

Midnighter

I don't like the idea that characters "turn" gay. And that if they display an interest in someone of the same sex when they haven't before, that supposedly destroys any prior interest they had in people of the opposite sex.

Bisexual is always an option, yeah? A straight person can still describe someone of the same sex as attractive, even if they're not interested in pursuing a relationship with them. But if they are, that's cool, I think. Just... keep it smooth, I guess. No need to build any foundation for the person's orientation besides, "I think this particular person is interesting/cute/hot, and I want to get to know them better". The decision to pursue a romantic relationship with someone in a fictional setting shouldn't have to be this huge redefining moment for the character if you find that troublesome. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I hope I kinda made sense?

Constantine

I think , that the character should still hold up even if it weren't gay. It should have a good chemistry with the rest of the cast and have a compelling development independently of his sexuality, or exploring how his sexuality interacts with the world around said character, alongside the previously mentioned development.

Same user
Tl;Dr : if you make him gay, don't make it so it's his only character trait

>marry Steel.

Bendis is the type of pusscake who would do that and wouldn't be brave enough to just make him marry Bruce

Beecher and Keller from Oz
Midnighter
Constantine

given those are all characters that were around prior to 2017's hellscape full of hypersensitive burgerstani babies ruining all forms of entertainment

Seriously. Straight characters don't get written as "look at how straight I am!" They just are. It should mostly be the same with gay characters. Not every gay person is a gay-rights crusader either, especially if they live in a Western country where equal rights have already pretty much happened, so that's not a cliche that needs to be applied to every gay character in fiction.

Connor Kent should be made bi, if not gay, when he returns.

>When he returns
You just keep holding on to that string there

>start university
>hang out with a handful of people, one of them an effeminate guy
>I've met effeminate men who are straight and married with kids, so I decide it's better to not make assumptions about that guy
>eventually ask him if he's gay
>"yeah, although I prefer 'faggot'"
>"k, cool"
>eventually this topic comes up with other classmates and I remark that that guy is gay
>they go full "duh, what are you retarded?"
Why was I the one who was made to feel like an asshole in this whole thing?

This. This is the best answer in this thread.

Depends on the genre, honestly, if it's an action comic having characters take a break everyone in awhile where they hang out or get into a romance subplot is fine, as long as the comic doesn't forget that you know, it's an action comic. And that the characters are actually compatible, that helps too, I feel like gay romances get a pass sometimes on being boring, if there's not an interesting dynamic it sucks, they're characters in a relationship, not a couple.

Then again if the tone just doesn't work then don't fucking do it. That goes both ways, if having a love interest is wrong because it clashes with the tone of a series DON'T fucking do it. Looking at you Samurai Jack.

If it's a slice of life/episodic type of show then characters 'turning' gay can work as long as it's gradual, respectful of the character and that it makes sense, Sup Forums will disagree, but Bubbline from AT is a good example of this, Marceline got a bit boring, but you could argue that her relationship with Princess Bubblegum wouldn't work as the character she was in S1-3, so even if she got lamer for the sake of the relationship that doesn't make it bad writing, just kinda uninteresting. Stakes is kinda stupid though. Anime and Mango are better at it.

...

>tl;dr: how would you describe a well written gay character?

You can't ever tell he's gay. You can only vaguely reference it, but doing shit like mentioning his husband or boyfriend in a off hand line is still pushing the gay agenda. This is what Sup Forums actually believes

>Midnighter
you may be right, because the first thing I think about Midnighter is how he's an edgy asshole. Gay comes close second

I am straight but I would read a comic where Batman and Superman become incredibly over the top gay for each other. Eventually Joker would invent some sort of pill to turn Superman straight out of jealousy.

Clark marries Bruce. Lois marries Steel.

>Lois marries Steel.

Nah, Lois marries Gangbuster. Yes, I'm THAT old.

You know who should come out as gay? Carol Danvers. Because she's practically a man already

Grand Moff Tarkin from Star Wars is gay btw

Gayness should not be stated as an important fact to the audience because it will become the most important.

Both Apollo and Midnighter are good examples, at least in the older comics. Being gay is a part of their identity, but it’s not the only part. I like rhe little scenes of their domestic life that are shown in The Authority and such, but I also like it when they best the shit out of people.

They were the best couple in comics for a long time.

>They were the best couple in comics for a long time.

They were also one of the only gay couples.

They were pretty much the only couple. Most gay characters never get developed. When they doit tendsbto be shittly done. Somehow gay people in comics are the most monogamous beings in the universe.

Jimmy is going gay.

Will Lex finally fuck him?

Depends adult or teenager? Most adults would probably struggle with it harder than teens this day and age. Having grown up and being surrounded by majority hetero sexual stuff and gay being used as an insult to someone's masculinity.

That being said, go slow. You don't just wake up one day penis in hand and jacking yourself off thinking "welp, I like sexual stuff now". It's a slope, either way. Sometimes people help you with it, sometimes assholes try to force you into it, and sometimes you struggle to figure it out yourself, but it is never a jump.

Drop hints, and don't be TOO subtle, like a single instance of a character looking at a character of the same sex during a conversation is terrie "evidence". Maybe a passing glance and thought of "Huh, X looks good today". Build from there, eventually getting to repressed thoughts or waving it off as a random dumb thought.

Would to go off the same build of a sexual awakening. Shame included either way, whether it be "I'm so fucked up" or "this is god damn disgusting and I hate myself". First time discovering something there is usually shame... For some reason. Least from what I remember.

But yeah, to answer your question, treat it like a slope of realization and do NOT make it a core character trait. A philanderer? Sure. A coward with self esteem issues? Fairly common. An energetic somewhat obnoxious adventure seeker? Japan does it. Gay? ... No.

If you need to rely on a character's sexuality or race/ethnicity/nationality to carry them, you have made a weak character. Especially if they are in the spotlight.

>Somehow gay people in comics are the most monogamous beings in the universe.

It's because
>there aren't that many gay characters
>most gay characters are either supporting cast or appear in team books
>gay characters in team books tend to be C-listers who get thrown out the book pretty quickly under new writers and roster shake ups
>since gay characters are so low on the totem pole, nobody is interested in breaking them up just to make them date anybody else


Midnighter getting a solo book in the new 52 was an exception and even that built up to them shacking up again.

Does anybody even remember Northstar getting married in "the wedding of the century" few years back? I would bet on no.

>there will never be an otherworlds story where Bruce and Clark are together, only Diana and Clark even though everyone hates it and it's shit for both characters
>there will never be an issue where Clark ends up getting some pink kryptonite on him again and spends the whole time trying to hide his massive crush on Bruce from everyone

Suffering.

>Does anybody even remember Northstar getting married in "the wedding of the century" few years back? I would bet on no.

I remember a bunch of soccer mom news sites reporting on it but not really caring because I wasn't really much into comics or at least characters that weren't Wolverine. Also I thought Northstar looked like a bitch nigga, the fact that he was both French and gay really added to that.

I myself have become extremely tired of extremely vanilla, safe and boring gay characters so I'd just make an edgy or villainous character gay and there's a massive plethora of Big 2 villains who already have extremely fucking gay antics so I'd make Mr. Sinister gay if I had to pick a Marvel character or I'd make the Joker gay if I had to pick a DC character.

It's already common knowledge that Joker just manipulates Harley and doesn't actually care for her so there's an example that'd be easy enough to suddenly change to a homo. The normie rage would be extreme but it could work. I think it's hard to change any character's sexuality though, it's better to simply write them that way from the beginning because then all the self-inserters won't get as pissy.

In fact, I remember a few years ago there was a lot of speculation about Daryl Dixon being gay from the TV version of The Walking Dead and even though he had never so much as looked at a woman and had some fairly convincing hallmarks of being a closeted character every single middle aged woman who wanted to fuck the actor and all the guys who didn't want muh cool crossbow guy being a fag lost it. Shit like that is why I think you're better off just ignoring people because they'll always be disappointed or if you care that much, just writing them as gay from the beginning while not being in people's face about it and hoping they accept it.

This guy gets it

I agree with you but it's interesting that you've listed all masculine presenting queers. Are femme gay men useless?

>Straight characters don't get written as "look at how straight I am!"
Are you implying ladykillers, manwhores and sluts don't exist?

When people bring up Midnighter I wonder if they're newer fans because Midnighter spends A LOT of time beating the shit out of homophobes.

For most straight characters the personal life aspects are almost always relationship/romantically based. Or at least the writers eventually have to cross that bridge because it does inform a lot of the character. You saying to basically ignore this if the character is gay means bending over backwards to ignore something that is a typical part of most characters in fiction.

in which case homosexuality shouldn't be used as the conflict in the relationship you just make a connection or lack thereof between two people.

There's not many 'cool' feminine gays in many forms of entertainment though. I've never seen an effeminate gay kicking someone's head off like Midnighter, I've never seen one snap a dude's neck after jizzing down their throat like Keller and I've never seen one beat the tar out of the guy who's fucking with him with a barbell and then commence to shit on their face in front of everyone like Beecher. Once I see something like that then I'd alter my list of well written gays/bifags so it's hard to say if they are useless as femme gays are usually reserved for sitcoms and shitty normie drama shows. I do find them awfully unattractive and annoying IRL, however.

I always liked Jack from Will and Grace. He was the funniest part of an otherwise abhorrent show but most straight people hate him. I'd genuinely like to see a guy like that adapted into an action setting. It could be cool.

Here's the thing. I don't think there's a formula here. You could have a gay character that surrounds themselves in their gay identity but it could still be a good character. It depends on the context, the story, how people react to them, etc.

My biggest problem with gay characters in comics now though is that so many of them do the same coming out story and we're supposed to believe that coming out was hard for them despite NO ONE in their lives being homophobic. Comics have put up such a tolerant front that homophobia feels unbelievable. If there is someone that's homophobic they're the outright villain and/or they get over it very quickly.

They basically tell people how to think instead of having any turmoil in the character's lives. That could be a real compelling story, having a character deal with someone that's homophobic and unmoving but not necessarily a mustache twirling villain. It seems to be one creators are unwilling to tell.

Well if they aren't a main character his sex life is irrelevant.

Is J Jonas Jameson gay? I literally don't know.

The simple truth is a tiny minority are gay, having a homophobes in the leading role is jarring because we don't relate. Spiderman and his girl next door crush resonates with teenage boys, but if he wanted to suck Harry's dick, it really wouldn't.

What makes a character feminine in comics? Not even talking "good" just looking for a rule to begin with.

Bunker? Anole? Iceman is a fucking queen now. Wiccan? Most of the new already cancelled Generation X cast?

Most Indy gay comics are super fem.

>>a well written gay character
>
>no such thing
>Criticism is inescapable
No shit. Criticism is literally inescapable for everything, criticisms from a few eternally butthurt assholes can't suddenly make something not well-written.

I don't think taking on gay culture and it's affects automatically make someone fem. For example, Iceman yas kween-ing doesn't really change anything, he's definitely still Masc4masc (adult iceman, anyway)

He's bisexual, but Black Saturn is unironically my favorite non-straight character of recent creation and I really want to see his romance play out.
The whole first season is written to give you hints that he's bi and in love with Groaner, but it was set up in a way that you could also read it as him being a huge manchild. Then the second season came and it all paid off by revealing that yes, they love each other and they're going to get married, basically making them the most stable relationship in the whole show.

>he's definitely still Masc4masc (adult iceman, anyway)

Ok but what's the scale?

I'd forgotten about Bunker. He's cool too. I don't know honestly, I was thinking of fem gays in the 90s flamer sense but I suppose Wiccan would count. Iceman only recently started yas kweening so it's hard to say if the changes to his personality will be permanent or not.

I can't tell if you meant that in a literal sense or not but here is a scale if you require it.

>so its like all minority and female characters.
Mmm, no, there are plenty of well-written females and minorities out there.
Maybe not in most cape comics, but they're out there.

Ray from Archer is a well written gay
Greg and Terry are well written gays

Because they aren't perfect or impervious to humor. They can be fucked with or made fun of. They aren't preachy. And their gayness is utilized in their humor instead of always being a source for drama.

writing a gay who always talks about how far they are is the same lazy writing as a make character who always stares at women and talks about getting laid

those personalities exist but are a tiny party of the larger group. yet a lazy writer throws them in because theyre easy to identify

You assume gay/straight and they are gay/straight: OK
You assume gay and not gay: You're an asshole
You assume straight and not straight: Clueless

People like you better if you seem aloof rather than an asshole

Proof?

No I meant how do you decide what fem is in a visual medium, so no vocal cues, where most of the characters are ripped because superheroing, so no twinks.

No fuck off that is not masculine in any way shape or form. Do you know how awful it is to be into bears then when their goddamn hairyfaggot mouth opens they sound like the huffed helium and they're into clubbing and fuck a billion dicks per second.

I just want to fuck a stoic lumberjack that takes vpcare of shit and gets shot done not one of these queen was motherfucking faggot little bitched god damn.

B
Dont you were ban me for being off topic mods because iceman makes me feel this way

Well written gay characters usually actually do include references to their gayness, but don't really make a point of it to make it their entire character. Granted, it's hard to find good examples of this, especially from straight and/or fujoshi writers, but I think the best example I can think of (at least at the moment) is Justin from El Goonish Shive. And I know it's certainly gone downhill, but at it's peak quality, Justin was, and very well may be, the best written gay character.

Granted, it's rare I personally run into situations like this in most media I consume, so I haven't come across many examples of it.

>"yeah, although I prefer 'faggot'"
He wants the D

What about Shore Leave?
youtube.com/watch?v=ySEPkQUIOVM

Should have said 'Well I prefer the term sodomite'

>Do you know how awful it is to be into bears then when their goddamn hairyfaggot mouth opens they sound like the huffed helium and they're into clubbing and fuck a billion dicks per second.
Do you know how awful it is to be into fems and not want the clubbing and manwhore types?

Screen capping for future use

Why are we discussing this? Characters are rated depending on how well the author writes them and how consistent they do it. A show with a male/male romance could be the exact same as a show with a male/female romance with characters having a different name.

It's Sup Forums but Fire Emblem from Tiger and Bunny is pretty great.

>Bruce
no, you fools. it's obviously this it will be revealed that lex's hatred was just sublimated homolust all along.

>tfw if Gotham Central were written today people would tear it apart for being "SJW bullshit"
I am sad it probably isn't canon anymore, but at least it isn't suffering this sad fate.

The easiest pitfall to get into is very similar to the failure of any straight relationship in a comic and that's making it so sexuality oriented that it takes over the driving plot of the book itself. The issue is that even if it's terribly minor that doesn't impact the reader's views on it. I.E. had we not been hammered by the modern LGBT movement as such as a whole we wouldn't actually view most scenes as pandering so much.

A good gay character lets it be apart of them naturally without having to seem off or out of the norm. A fucker with issues but still gets the job done shouldn't fall in to the obvious trap of being gay but also a hero rather they should be a hero but also gay on the side. Homosexuality should be a side trait, not a defining factor because the most important thing about a character is action taken rather then words and ideologies spoken. if deathstoke liked dicks yet still acted like deathstroke and not a huge overly sexualized gay guy then it's deathstroke who has no problems fucking other guys. How ever is deathstroke broke character and defended anyone and specifically made a statement about tolerance towards gay people? Fuck that characterization.

Doesn't he identify as nonbinary or something? I realize the japanese treat this stuff differently but the movie has him outright saying that he tried to be a man, then tried to be a woman, but finally decided he's a little of both.

>tl;dr: how would you describe a well written gay character?
By having that not be a defining part of their personality?

I thought Star Wars was going to pull this off with Finn and Poe but they decided they wanted to try and appeal to Asian markets, I guess.

Don't forget the classic UHHH LETS JUST KILL OFF THE LOVE INTEREST AND HAVE THEM BE SAD ABOUT IT!

They get points for diversity and they don't have to actually bother showing any gay romance, its the easy out.

He's genderqueer, as in his personal identity is a blend of traditionally masculine and feminine traits. Sexually he's gay.

>Midnighter getting a solo book in the new 52 was an exception and even that built up to them shacking up again.
I'm still mad about how he gets to be his own character and fuck around but Apollo doesn't. I'd have killed to see someone else step in and be like "Midnighter, if you're going to treat him like a pure husband ideal that you don't deserve then I'm taking him away, ok bye."