And I say [that] as a massive DC fan who much prefers their characters to Marvel’s. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are some of my favorites but I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity. They are based around their super power. Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock or Peter Parker or the individual X-Men, it’s all about the character. DC, outside of Batman, is not about the character. With Batman, you can understand him and you can worry about him but someone like Green Lantern, he has this ring that allows him to create 3D physical manifestations and green plasma with the thoughts in his head but he’s allergic to the color yellow! How do you make a movie with that? In 1952 that made perfect sense but now the audience have no idea what that’s all about.
Millar continued, very aware his comments could start some major shit.
People will slam me for this but I think the evidence is there. We’ve seen great directors, great writers and great actors, tonnes of money thrown at them, but these films aren’t working. I think they are all too far away from when they were created. Something feels a little old about them, kids look at these characters and they don’t feel that cool. Even Superman, I love Superman, but he belongs to an America that doesn’t exist anymore. He represents 20th Century America and I think he peaked then.
Does Millar not watch any movies that were created before 2011 or something?
Thomas Watson
His favorite movie is the 1978 Superman and I think he liked The Dark Knight.
Matthew Morgan
>We’ve seen great directors, great writers and great actors We have?
Easton Robinson
Yeah that's the part that stood out for me too. Especially since he didn't seem too keen on Snyder's stuff and he didn't exactly name Avengers as one of his top 10 for 2012.
Noah Nguyen
>I prefer DC's characters to Marvel's characters because they are shitty, shallow characters with no depth outside of their superpowers
Was Mark Millar being passive aggressive here?
Kayden Hughes
Counterpoint: Wonder Woman worked fine in her recent movie.
Aaron Harris
Donner, Burton and Nolan user.
Landon Martinez
And all three were successes. >but these films aren’t working. He's clearly talking about the DCEU, which had WB scrape the bottom of the barrel for actors, writers and directors since before it even started.
Jackson Bailey
He enjoyed Donner's films and hated Superman III and IV. I think he liked Nolan's Batman Trilogy but didn't like Burton's (I could be wrong on that last one though.)
Dominic Morris
>Marvel characters are deep because they fight each other all the time. Yeah, captain mary sue is the most deep and complex character ever made.
Asher Nguyen
And even with the DCEU it's arguable that Wonder Woman was a "success".
I think, and I may be offbase here, but I think that he says this to imply "these are older heroes, watch the new stuff from Millarworld instead." Cause that's the vibe I got from this and some past interviews.
Christian Cox
>but someone like Green Lantern, he has this ring that allows him to create 3D physical manifestations and green plasma with the thoughts in his head but he’s allergic to the color yellow! How do you make a movie with that?
So... Don't make a movie like that but just use the Johns take, but with better writer and director?
Sebastian Collins
>Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock
What? Daredevil is totally based around the fact that he is blind and has other enhanced senses to make up for it..
Brandon Smith
This is just another MUH RELATABLE HERO rant, isn't it? God forbid we get superheroes that are actually superheroes.
Gavin Russell
>Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are some of my favorites but I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity. They are based around their super power.
That is complete bullshit. Wonder Woman isn't about her powers which have been inconsistent throughout her publishing history. It's about her being an amazon living in patriarch's world and fighting the gods and monsters of myths.
Superman is about a man who fights for freedom/hope/justice/american way.
Millar is a fucking Marvel shill.
Aiden Jackson
The problem is that people don't want to go see a movie about an established superhero and be depressed.
Cameron Wilson
>Millar is a retard I am shocked. So very shocked. How will I ever be the same again.
Charles Parker
Yes. Clark Kent is inferior to Peter Parker because he is more relatable. The immigrant reporter is less relatable than the super genius former ceo that made robots and bangs super models.....
Bentley Parker
But user, Spider-man went to high school once, so he's just like me. Everyone knows Superman was never a teenager.
Luis Rogers
>Millar is a hack
What a fucking surprise.
Julian Nelson
Millar said this about the DCEU in his forum:
>I actually think Cavill is visually perfect for Superman. Maybe even more than Reeve and you know how much I love Reeve.
>The trouble is that he’s never been given a memorable line. There’s nothing. He’s never had a chance to actually act. He’s got no great moments in either of these movies and that’s a shame.
>I think Affleck’s brilliant, but simply wrong for a superhero or a super-villain. He’d be a terrible Luthor. Malkovich was always my choice too. Ed Harris I could have seen. But both maybe a little too old now. You don’t want a villain any older than late 40s. Eisenberg is a terrific actor and there’s a parallel universe where he got a much better version of that character to play with.
>As for Batman, it has to be Fassebender. Were I directing a Batman movie I’d shoot it like 90s animated Batman and cast Fass as a suave, cool and dangerous Bruce Wayne.
And about the church scene in Man of Steel when someone posted a Youtube link to it:
>I got forty seconds into that and I skipped forward :slight_smile:
>My attention span is beautiful. This sequence is just so boring. Taking 2 mins 30 secs to do what Donner would have done succinctly in two lines.
>That movie just has no MOMENTS. I never feel happy. I never feel sad.I’m just staring at the screen and stuff is happening.
Nolan Williams
Honestly, I do think the DC Universe has a couple of problems in translating to film - one major example is the issue of power creep. Superman and Flash can one-shot too many villains that people are even mildly familiar with (mainly Batman's rogues), and there's a significant issue with fleshing out public knowledge of lots of these characters.
Most non-fans can't tell you who Superman fights besides Zod and Lex Luthor. Maybe occasionally you'll get someone who knows who Brainiac or Doomsday is, but not a lot.
Once you get outside of the big six or so (Supes, Batman, WW, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, maybe Green Arrow now), people sharply stop having knowledge of these characters... and let's be honest, a lot of the rest of the portfolio is either a powerset copy-paste of their main character or overpowered. Captain Marvel? Overpowered like Superman. The Bat Family?
Marvel's done a pretty good job of ensuring no character is supposed to seem omnipresent.
Nathaniel Bell
how is he wrong?
Wyatt Taylor
How is he right?
Liam Thomas
she didn't though everyone knows it was Chris Pine that made that piece of shit watchable
Jaxon Mitchell
Is Millar still relevant? Is he still upset he's a poorman's Morrison/Ellis?
Landon Cox
He's not even that; he's just Garth Ennis without the ideological conviction and and even more nasty and mean-spirited sense of humor.
Aaron Green
Most people aren't exposed to CEO/Supermodel/Genius Peter. Cartoons, movies, etc., play that down all the time.
Hell, the first Spidey comic I ever read involved him trying to fight two guys while battling a really bad flu. Over the coming years I'd more remember him running out of web fluid, or sacrificing his social responsibilities to save someone, etc. Clark Kent's job is rarely at risk and he's able to step away for long periods of time to venture off with the JLA in space. He can change his clothes in a phone booth in the blink of an eye.
Totally different if you're not a comic fan following the last few years of Slott's nonsense.
Oliver Gray
this is how
these characters don't work and have never worked
Nathan Gomez
But at his core Superman is really a down to earth guy.
Carter Bailey
>“The [DC] characters aren’t cinematic.” Nigga what? >I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity. They are based around their super power. What in the actual fuck is he smoking? Blink twice if the mouse is forcing you to say these objectively incorrect things Mark.
Juan Sullivan
>these characters are not cinematic. >you can tell by hom many movies they have.
Liam Turner
and how many of those many are good? it's impossible to make anything good with these characters because they AREN'T GOOD CHARACTERS
William Scott
How many marvel movies are good? You and Millar are full of shit.
Justin Rogers
If you were around in the early 1990's you would be the one trying to argue that Marvel's characters weren't cinematic on the basis of Howard the Duck, the 90's Cap and Punisher films.
Wyatt Richardson
>they aren't good characters Prove it.
Ryder Russell
Let's not pretend that more than half of those movies are decent, or even really part of what we consider the "DC Universe."
Marvel's put out a contemporary interlinked universe that spans more than half of what's in your image and has been better received.
And that's not mentioning the litany of various Marvel-based movies that have come out over the same time. Hell, combine just this and Fox's X-Men universe and it's a blowout.
Brayden Hughes
almost all of them
the fact that most of their movies and tv shows are shit and the only successes are the ones that either stray as far as possible from the source material or on a channel that doesn't care about ratings because they're always low for all their shows
Julian Martinez
>The two greatest Superhero movies are Superman 77 and The Dark Knight >have never worked Fuck off ladderbro
Nicholas Martinez
>they AREN'T GOOD CHARACTERS Y-you don't seriously believe this do you?
Christopher Reyes
>responding to such pathetic bait
David Reed
it's even more of a blowout if you include ALL marvel movies like Blade, Men in Black, and Kingsman
Ryder Johnson
>i was only pretending to be retarded
Nathaniel Young
I'm not sure who you think you're quoting.
Ryder Parker
literally everyone does as OP and the many DC failures clearly show
Mason Thompson
>Kingsman >Marvel
Kayden Edwards
>the fact that most of their movies and tv shows are shit But can you prove that?
Adam Perez
I like how you conveniently "forget" that DC's animated series are literally some of the most popular and critically well received of all time.
and that before the MCU most of the Marvel moves and shows were shit as well. It's almost like there's nothing inherently wrong with the characters but it's with the people in charge.
Christopher Hill
>Icon Comics is an imprint of Marvel Comics for creator-owned titles, designed to keep select "A-list" creators producing for Marvel rather than seeing them take creator-owned work to other publishers
>John Cena really should have been Captain America
>Think of the vacuum that is Chris Evans looking dead-eyed as he commands the team.
>Imagine Cena facing off against Downey Jr in Civil War.
>It could have been amazing.
>MM
>PS Yes, I’ve been doing a lot of research on Cena.
Jayden Torres
>creator-owned titles This is the important bit. These are not Marvel IPs.
Grayson Sanchez
So these are shit characters as well then?
Cameron Green
you mean like Teen Titans Go? oh wait you mean that shit that ended over a decade ago
Kayden Rogers
>I have no argument guys!
We know.
Justin Richardson
user also conveniently forgotten to mention the comics.
Noah Sullivan
The reason they failed was because some idiot decided that the heroes' symbolism mattered more than their characters.
Then WB decided to make him direct two-and-a-half films before they realized they fucked up.
Benjamin Harris
Irish Catholic guilt
Xavier Miller
>have never worked Moving goalposts, eh ladderbro? Also, much as we all hate to admit it, TTG is a massive success. Marvel would love to have that kiddie appeal. It's what they keep reaching for with their current cartoons.
William Ramirez
>How many marvel movies are good?
Kayden Turner
>The reason they failed was because some idiot decided that the heroes' symbolism mattered more than their characters. This.
The people in charge started buying into that stupid fucking "DC is gods pretending to be humans" meme.
Jason Allen
Animation's a different beast though... you can depict things over a much longer arc on a much cheaper budget, and the audience is different. You don't have to push someone into and out of a story in two hours or so of screentime.
They're genuinely not easy characters to adapt.
Then again, I'm not the guy saying that DC characters are "shit," just that they don't lend themselves to cinema.
Ryder Rivera
>implying those scores mean anything. All that means is that these movies got a lot of lukewarm reviews.
Angel Clark
Can you be any more butt blasted?
Blake Russell
I seriously think DC should start doing theatrical animated movies. YOU HAVE AN ANIMATION STUIDOS WARNER BROTHERS, QUIT WITH THE CHEAP SOUTH KOREAN ANIMATION.
Nathaniel King
>just that they don't lend themselves to cinema. That's objectively untrue though. It's just that WB are for the most part fucking incompetent idiots that don't understand DC.
There's literally not a single reason that DC's characters outside of Batman "don't lend themselves to cinema."
Brandon Edwards
But are these movies good? I watched Doctor strange and trust me, it's doesn't deserve that score.
Evan Walker
Denny O'Neil the Question is the best 80s action movie that I ever read.
Luke Sullivan
Also Black Panther which out grossed JL's whole run in just a week.
Jackson Ross
I already laid it out earlier, with an argument about power creep/character repetition. In a shared universe, most generic movie viewers are going to wonder why Superman doesn't just come regulate and fix the problem.
It's already happened in five years of DCCW... basically every episode is "why not call Barry," "why not bring in Supergirl," "Why not time travel," "let's establish a reason that these characters aren't at full strength because otherwise this episode would be over in a *Flash*"
Aaron Collins
>most generic movie viewers are going to wonder why Superman doesn't just come regulate and fix the problem. But Marvel has the exact same problem.
Benjamin Young
Right idea, wrong reasoning. The flaw of DC heroes is they are Gods among men, they suffer in ways that are way outside the scope of your everyday person. It's like how robots get triggered when they hear a person is depressed and has a GF. To them the GF should cure their depression or at the very least one that has a GF shouldn't bitch about suffering because(in their minds) they could have it worse. That's basically DC's issue in a film approach. Clark Kent was raised by farmers in a no where town, he can suffer their passing but he will never know what it's like to have a human cold, or suffer the inability to change his life, it's all on his moral code rather than his limitations. It's why Spider-man works better in films, yes he has powers but they have limits. He can't race to class and be there in a second, he can't shrug off a bullet or a wound from one, he can't fly or get super charged up from the Sun. That's most DC heroes, they have surpassed the everyday challenges we suffer and something like Green Lantern or Cyborg struggling with rent would seem stupid. So he's right, he just doesn't understand why.
Bentley Howard
>The flaw of DC heroes is they are Gods among men Please fucking stop with this shit.
Sebastian Butler
>The flaw of DC heroes is they are Gods among men, Nigga i'll fight ya
Michael Green
There's a few outliers here (looking at Iron Man 3 specifically), but I disagree.
Thor's got his own world's shit going on, everything that happened with Winter Soldier happened in the span of a couple of days and was a conspiracy focused on Cap... there isn't really a character in the MCU (until Doctor Strange, and we'll see where we go with that), that can just be on top of every problem at all times.
Chase Carter
But Superman isn't some all powerful god, he's just a man. He and all DC heroes (just like Marvels) have their own shit going on which is why they can't save the day from every single villian.
I don't understand why you think people buy the excuse in the MCU but inherently wouldn't in DC's universe? You do understand that DC have had a shared comic continuity for over 50 years as well right? and that characters like Superman don't step in and save every person or stop every bad guy right?
Thomas Ward
How are they not?
Dominic Richardson
Try actually reading a DC comic and you might find out.
Aaron Baker
> he's just a man That's invulnerable to any form of human threat outside of one rare as fuck glowing rock That can be anywhere in the world in seconds That can lift massive amounts without issue
>He and all DC heroes (just like Marvels) have their own shit going on which is why they can't save the day from every single villian. It's more writer plot effect than actual issues. It's like BatGod but in reverse. You can buy that Spider-man runs late and miss class but Flash is much harder to the point he always has to be be written in media as a ham or worse because otherwise you have nothing to relate too.
The question is do you understand suspension of disbelief and how much a strain most DC heroes put on that in general media compared to Marvel?
Jackson Edwards
I doubt you have ever read one if you think they are anything but Gods. Hell two of the best Superman stories involve him losing his powers.
Carson Wright
> You do understand that DC have had a shared comic continuity for over 50 years as well right? and until recently struggled to share 20% of the comic Market to Marvel's 70%? Hell the only reason they are getting any speed is marvel is just sucking that bad. If they get their shit straight were back to the usual smack down of X books and Spidey making the same as all of DCs books in a month.
Landon Brooks
>I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity. They are based around their super power. Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock or Peter Parker or the individual X-Men, it’s all about the character.
He's not right, but I can see why he would think that. The MCU has done a great job of making the superheroes feel like "these are people who have powers" whereas the DCEU did a terrible job of making Superman and Batman relateable, depending on the performance of "Aquaman" I'm tempted to call "Wonder Woman" a fluke.
The DC universe does have a degree of separation because so many of the cities are made up compared to Marvel and DC's heroes are more powerful and often portrayed with a mythic air, that can make for great stories but I can see why audiences might not be able to get behind it.
Josiah Sanders
>implying power equals character Jesus man, at least try not to appear so casual. >The question is do you understand suspension of disbelief and how much a strain most DC heroes put on that in general media compared to Marvel? What? Marvel have tons of characters that're just as if not more powerful than Superman. Thor is a LITERAL God.
Grayson Turner
It's also worth noting that even DC staff admitted if Marvel dies they go shortly after. It's almost like most people have preferred Marvel heroes over DC over the years.
Logan Fisher
Well Clark is just a reporter from the midwest.
Bentley Miller
>until recently struggled to share 20% of the comic Market to Marvel's 70% But that's entirely wrong though.
Easton Flores
>I doubt you have ever read one if you think they are anything but Gods Are you fucking serious? Superman is literally the most relatable, human superhero of all time. He's just a regular good guy from Kansas who just happens to not have been born on Earth and has amazing powers. Character's powers have literally nothing to do with their characterization. >Hell two of the best Superman stories involve him losing his powers. and a thousand more don't.
Joseph Hall
he's not wrong
Robert Clark
>That's invulnerable to any form of human threat outside of one rare as fuck glowing rock Be more of a casual why don't ya.
Jack Moore
I've heard that they've got great comic runs and are the "First Family" of the Marvel universe (despite Susan always being a conversation with Namor from cheating), but the closest they've ever gotten to working in movies is "The Incredibles".
Hudson Rodriguez
We are talking about relatability not character. Many movie goers can't sympathize with Supermans struggles because the guy can do as he pleases the moment it strikes him so. >Thor is a LITERAL God. and I'm so happy you brought that up because he is one of the weaker sellers in both books in films and consider in the films they depowered him a lot too. Your argument is pushing more to my point, Thor needed three films to get audiences to warm up to him and that serious depowering he has in MCU. Superman can't catch that break. Depower him and all normies are confused, keep him at power level and they can't relate.
Asher Ross
Ever heard of a personal god?
Robert Cooper
If DC went out of business then literally the entire comic market would crash and burn overnight. >It's almost like most people have preferred Marvel heroes over DC over the years. That shows how little you actually know about comics and comic sales history.
Justin Bell
Marvel has an advantage in making movies that appeal to many adults in that they seemed to have aimed their comics at an older demographic than some of DC's most popular characters seemed to have aimed their comics at when they first came out. So as a result of this Marvel doesn't seem to have to deal as much with a history of campiness in regards to some things with some of their characters that hey want to make movies and tv shows about.
Anthony Turner
What were the markets then in the 80s and 90s? Because all the stuff I'm finding shows DC had less than 1/3rd the market.
Carter Williams
>Then WB decided to make him direct two-and-a-half films before they realized they fucked up.
Genuine question. How much did Zack Snyder damage the DC brand for normies?
James Foster
you gonna back that up with something?
Camden Thompson
Superman was relating to people like 40 years before Spider-man was even a thing. That's the whole reason of the secret identity as Clark Kent.
Logan Lewis
>What were the markets then in the 80s and 90s? You mean when New teen titans was the best selling comic and Marvel was going bankrupt? Where are you getting this from.
Grayson Howard
Batman was the #1 selling cape merc till 2015, it went to Spiderman as #1 then. Most blame BvS. In 2017 it drop to #5.