Was Cass right?

Was Cass right?

Red Hood proves her wrong

Nah, this is such a shit storyline.

Why is catwoman dressed up like batgirl?

What's the skinny on Batwoman? Is she part of the bat family? If not, then Cass is just being autistic.

How hard it's to follow one simple moral rule?

...

Someone needs to put that artist out of his misery.

It's actually a case of Batman being a control freak where he has been trying to assimilate Batwoman into the Batfamily.

>Is she part of the bat family?

Well, she *was*.

Not everyone has to play by Batman's rules.

It is interesting that Batwoman was also shown as very rigid and militaristic in Nightwing's New Order.

But that's the whole point of being a bat person

If they had just listened to Future Tim and let him snap Kathy Kane's neck then Cass's husbando would have been saved and Tim wouldn't be spiraling into insanity.

His city his rules or you can see who gets more movie adaptations.

>His city
Has Batman finally been electrd the mayor of douchebagville?

Then yeah, I assume Cass is just being autistic. If Batwoman became a hero independently of Batman then that symbol means whatever it wants her to mean. (Unless she just killed somebody Cass is close to, in which case the response is completely normal)

You make Cass cry, you deserve to die.

Batwoman could have used Batman's "I'm choosing not to save you" loophole to avoid the Code Against Killing disadvantage.

He owns the police commissioner, one of the biggest businesses and has like seven child soldiers. He owns the town.

But Jason actually shows restraint now. But that's another story. The problem isn't if the bat-team should use lethal force, its Kate taking matters into her own hands and not being a team player. She pulled the trigger, and didn't give a damn if the team had a nonlethal method of subduing Karlo. She doesn't deserve to wear the bat logo

Honestly, she never did.

>militaristic
Huh it’s almost like she was in the Military

She can speak complete sentences?!

There's also his alternative internet, several properties, secret arsenal, personal space program, etc...

No, the bat stands for a bat

This. She's a bitch who started wearing bat-pajamas, and has never liked Bruce. I'm not implying the batfamily needs to constantly be his lapdogs, but he's usually a good example, and the reason why they're all there.

What's funny is That Batwoman did have a no-kill rule before all of this so this os just bad writing. All Tynion knew about her was military and exaggerated it to her being willing to kill.

It's been several years, she still haven't finished a tale of two cities tough.

>I'm not implying the batfamily needs to constantly be his lapdogs
Sounds like you are though.

>Unless she just killed somebody Cass is close to, in which case the response is completely normal

She did, Clayface.

She isnt part of the batfamily, neither is barbara, the batfamily are the kids that lived in the mansion, bruce, alfred and that's it. Not catwoman, not steph.
The kids and Cass.

They did the same with Cass, they made the Robin villain, she joined the league of assassins (why the fuck no) killed some random goons and fought supergirl with red sun light sabers.

Cannon explanation was that deathstroke used a mindcontrol serum, absolute writer bs.

I love it how all the characters in-story, and a decent percentage of Sup Forumsntrarians are shitting all over Kate without offering an alternative.

Clayface was a kaiju sized threat. His insanity was being held at bay for maybe another thirty seconds or so, and after that he would have snapped and killed Cass and countless other innocents. There was literally no other way to stop him. If Cass had been holding the gun, Basil in his last few moments of lucidity would have begged her to kill him before loses control again -which was moments away.

Clayface was a victim of his condition sure. You could argue that it wasn’t even his fault and what happened to him was tragic. But the fact is, innocent lives were at stake.

Kate had her moment and she took it. The alternative was to just allow Clayface to continue his rampage and say “well at least I didn’t kill anyone with my own hands.”

For those who think she did the wrong thing, I’ve got to ask, do you think Batman did the wrong thing in the TDK movie when he tackled Harvey to his death because the lives of Gordon’s children were on the line? An autistic “we never kill, ever” Batman would have allowed Harvey’s coin to decide the kid’s fates. Is that rational?

Not really. All I'm saying is that Kate is a cunt for doing things her way without devising an actual plan. Cass sure as hell wasn't on board. Kate didn't care.

Dude this are comic books, there's always another way, don't betray the principles of the character for the sake of realism.

user, Clayface is perhaps one of the easiest bat-rogues to subdue. All they had to do is freeze the muddy bastard, then think of a way to contain/cure him. But no, Kate had to push "there's no other way" because shooting him was just easier to her

Wtf happened? I haven't been reading Tec.

Yeah what could POSSIBLY be interesting about characters being forced to compromise their ideals. Writing is all about slapdash deus ex machinas.
Fucking capeshitters I swear.

>deathstroke used a mindcontrol serum
Fun fact: mind control serum is what slade calls his dick.

And that's on the writer.

If you look at it rationally and pretend the story is taking place in the real world it's completely obvious that Kate did the right thing. She did exactly what we would expect a cop to do, and if a cop had that shot and didn't take it then the public would cry for his arrest because of the thousands of people that would have died before Clayface was finally shot.

Within the Batman universe and the ironclad "muh never kill rule" she's being made to look like that bad guy, because like Tim says "We always find another way". And in comics that usually IS what happens, but in the real world that's not what happens. What usually happens if you don't eliminate a threat when you could then you don't find another way and lots of people pay the price.

It's just fake tension because people whose head is in the bat-universe think shes 100% wrong and people who are thinking about it like it took place in reality think she's 100% right. It's the same thing that happened with Civil War Cap/Tony.

Why is she a lesbian?

user the "no kill rule" is a dead horse plotline for Batman comics, this is just forced shit drama.

K Kane shot Clayface in the head with a sniper rifle and killed him.

Christ capeshit sucks.

Is Cass finally going to get a costume with a bat symbol now?

>Liking Dick
Starfire pls leave.

For a while ClayFace was on the mend, acting heroic and actually trying out acting again.
Him and Cass had really bonded, using acting to practice socialization.

Bad guys messed with his mind and made him attack the city.
While everyone else was trying to contain and turn back Clayface, Batwoman shot him with a super-weapon that has seemingly destroyed him.

Because girls turn her on and she thinks boys are gross.

Oh yeah, they were trying to do some face turn thing with Clayface in Detective.

What is it about being military that make comic writers make that a character's One Thing.

>John Stewart was a Marine? He'll make all his GL constructs sniper rifles & guns & whatnot.

>Carol Davners was in the air force? Let's make her super military and pragmatic minded. Also, crew cut & bomber jackets everywhere.

In Cass case was the motivation for the character and the reason she joined the bat family, she was trained as a killer and refused death, she couldn't talk but could express that.

Other characters have different arcs, but when they removed that the character was nothing, just another asian in the suit, that's why I say that some characters need their principles to be.

>What is it about being military that make comic writers make that a character's One Thing.
Because people who make their careers in the military tend to think in certain ways. There’s literally nothing wrong with letting c a character’s background inform their mindset. It’d be weird if Carol who was a fucking colonel didn’t think and act like an officer.

Fake tension is exactly how I would describe James Tynion's writing style.

>What is it about being military that make comic writers make that a character's One Thing.

Because comic writers are overwhelmingly left wing politically, and like people on both sides in the current year they have no friends or even acquaintances of opposite politics, so the people hidden in fog on the other side of that chasm end up becoming caricatures.

Where have you been in the last years, user?
Because Carol has become a real cunt with poor strategies and an attitude of “I’m better than all of you because I say so.”

Did she just rip the entire bat part off the front of her outfit?
Do we get to see this front, newly cleavaged angle?

So Batman has been portrayed wrong in every single film iteration where he’s needed to kill someone?

Why don’t we take it a step further and say that violence is never the answer full stop, and that Batman should never throw a punch because there’s always “another way”?

How do you freeze THAT much clay in a reasonable timeframe? If he was human sized (he wasn’t) and Batman happened to be carrying a Mr. Freeze gun (he wasn’t), then maybe you’d have a point.

Given the size Clayface was, if Mr. Freeze and Captain Cold were there personally helping Batman, it still wouldn’t have been enough. It was just too much clay. The best you can hope for is to freeze small portions of him and piss him off further.

Also, Cass was standing right there. She would have been killed. I’d have to read the issue again, but how do we know that civilians in the nearby buildings and passing by in cars WEREN’T killed?

This begs the question, if you’re trying to subdue a criminal non-lethally, what’s the acceptable number of civilians to get killed in the process? Five? A dozen? A hundred? To be clear, I’m not advocating for Batman to kill the Joker in his cell on principle here -that’s another discussion entirely. I’m talking about using lethal force on a villian who is on a current rampage -not a future one. Batman himself used lethal force on Darkseid when the whole world was at stake, so he’s clearly willing to draw the line somewhere. MOS was a shit movie, but it’s not because Superman snapped Zod’s neck, the internal logic of that is pretty sound. Again, I’d love your thoughts on TDK Batman and Harvey.

The old switcheroo.

Just read it, Never liked Batwoman. Batfamily is pretty bloated as it stands, also the explanation that Bruce is only doing the knight program so Kate won't be a soldier is kinda weak. Idk, Kate should just change her name to something else and work solo.

The fact that the cure actually worked a few pages later shows Kate is supposed to be in the wrong.

>but how do we know that civilians in the nearby buildings and passing by in cars WEREN’T killed

The implied that thousands of people were killed before she shot him but they never showed a single body in the rubble and probably will never mention it again.

1. You’re changing the subject.
2. I’ve seen no evidence of any of that arrogance from Carol in any recent comics. In fact she was seriously questioning her decisions after CWII. I’m not one of these other retards you can’t sit here and lie to me like that.

Bah! How seemingly reasonable, yet infuriating!
Wait, are they both wearing incredibly form fitting boob plate?

>If Mr Freeze and Captain Cold were there personally helping Batman, it still wouldn't be enough
>Captain Cold
Okay so you don't read comics, good to know. Because that fucker plays with Absolute Zero, and dances with one of the most broken metahumans on the planet. I think a trip to the Watchtower evidence locker is simple enough. And how do you know Freeze's tech wouldn't work? Batman probably has a stockpile of his shit confiscated back at the cave.

This is just contrived bullshit so there can be drama in the Batfamily, AGAIN

>poor strategies and an attitude of “I’m better than all of you because I say so."

Yeah your average officer.

Does being a west point cadet really make you part of the military?

Yeah movies do get him wrong a lot, the no kill rule has always been key in the comics, as pervert insane man Miller said.

"Batman it's just a kid that don't want to see people die"

so Batman can smash a rifle over his knee? how did he not break his leg? can DC just admit that he has superpowers?

Bat Rage, hell of an anesthetic.

Flash comics instantly require you to throw believability out the window. I don’t care what tech Snart has, he still thinks at human speed and pulls the trigger of a gun at human speed. He should not be a threat to someone who pulls off the shit Flash does. Flash comics are fun, but they don’t pretend to be grounded in realism like the Batman stories generally do. And yes, I know Batman is unrealistic too, but nowhere on the level of the Flash.

And to my knowlege, neither Fries or Snart has ever frozen a kaiju with their normal gear. Yes, Batman does indeed have a Mr. Freeze gun stashed somewhere (as we saw in Blackest Night) but he doesn’t regularly carry it around. He’d have to go back to the cave and how many civilians would have died in the time it took to do that?

Given the size of Clayface at the time, I’d argue that neither Freeze or Cold’s usual tech would have been sufficient to freeze his entire mass. And even if I’m wrong on this point, that shit wasn’t readily available.

Why is “you don’t read comics” people’s go-to argument when someone disagrees with you?

>so Batman can smash a rifle over his knee?

Since 1986, yeah.

>double-barrel shotgun
>three bullets

There's something iconic about that knee break.

Because yet again you just proved you don't read shit outside of Batman, and your argument is weak. Ignoring the fact that they already have an explanation as to why Snart can even hit Flash (you would know this if you read anything outside of Batman), it's still something that exists in the DC universe. Moreover, your pulling reasons out of your ass as to why Victor's cryo-tech wouldn't work against Clayface, when you have jack shit to back that up with. You're just making excuses to validate this shit plot with a concept thats been covered a dozen times already in Batman comics

that's an elseworlds.

And yet the Nolan films are generally accepted as the definitive onscreen portrayal of Batman.

What do you think comics Batman should have done in the same situation with Harvey? Should he break his one rule to save a kid’s life or should he just stand there and hope for the best coin outcome several times in a row?

...

If he was done something else it would have been superheroic, something beyond morality, just good.

I'll elaborate in the same situation, superman would have saved everybody, flash the same wonder woman the same, captain america spiderman, etc.

What Nolan did was a humanizing gesture, but by doing that removed the aura of the character and by the third movie it just wasn't there anymore.

>user, Clayface is perhaps one of the easiest bat-rogues to subdue. All they had to do is freeze the muddy bastard,
If we were talking Clayface at his usual size and strength, yeah, sure. But when he's a several stories high Kaiju, it's another matter entirely.

She came on the scene during a very, very weird time in Gotham. To put it simply, much like Barbara, she was inspired by Batman and worked alongside Dick when he was under the cowl, but hasn't really been one of the family until this run of Detective Comics.

>capeshit will never comfortably grow out of its manchild pandering phase
I hope you’re proud of yourself user.

Doesn't mean its not possible. Not the most far-fetched thing Batman's ever pulled, not even top 10

It’d be pretty irresponsible to risk it though.

Please, enlighten me. Show me the page where Freeze incapitates something kaiju sized. Then explain how Batman would have time to go back to the cave and retrieve the gun before Clayface kills Cass.

Also please enlighten me how a human who thinks and moves at regular speed can hit a guy who can run backwards through time and wakes up when a bullet is nudging him in his sleep after it’s been fired.

I’ll freely admit that I haven’t read as many Flash comics as I have Batman comics... but so fucking what? Are you an expert on everything related to Superman, Moon Knight, TMNT, Green Arrow, the Zoo Crew, the Phantom and Garfield?

Please it has gone in every direction possible, you have heroes that kill genocide and lie, they fuck gamble and destroy universes, but batman does this and that, there's nothing wrong with it.

She's not wrong in a sense.
Not sure why you'd get all dressed up in your bat costume if you're just going to pull out a long range.

AFTER HAVING HIS BACK BROKEN BY A RADIOACTIVE KNEE, BATMAN HAS BEEN TURNED INTO THE AMAZING KNEE-BREAK MAN!

You think there's still cartilage in him?
He's probably 90% metal implants.

Don't apply logic to comics, you'll go mad.

She was inspired by Batman like how Steel was inspired by Superman.

Perhaps not the best example, but during Arkham War/Forever Evil, Victor froze a large portion of Gotham merely to claim his turf. At the very least we have evidence that Mr Freeze is capable of widespread distribution. But that's debatable depending on the writer of course given that his abilities have been widely inconsistent, ranging to OP to standard ice stuff.

As for Captain Cold, his gun projects a "Cold Field", that literally stops atoms/kinetic energy. We've seen him use it on numerous occasions to flash freeze people who have tried to use his own weapons against him, or stop bullets dead. It's mostly used to slow a speedster down just enough to make shots possible. Most of The Rogues are just as broken as The Flash, user.

Also I'm not sure what those other characters have anything to do with conversation, other than displaying how defensive you're being about all of this.

He's perpetually early 30's with no significant injuries except ones that have happened within the current storyline.

It's like the Punisher. Frank was in nam, would be pushing 70 years old and have been shot hundreds of times in various parts of his body if they didn't reset him every new major arc.

Kate didn't even feel bad about killing him. She hung out with this guy and watched him try to turn his life around but has absolutely no bad feelings about putting him down. She only feels bad about making Cass not like her anymore
Fuck Kate.

Nope. Much of Gotham's problems could easily be resolved if the Batfamily killed the supervillains or allowed them to die by not saving them. Clayface is no exception. He became a rampaging giant kaiju that the Batfamily had no means of stopping peacefully outside of hope. And hoping that rampaging giant kaiju Clayface would stop peacefully is not an acceptable solution. Especially since he is endangering the city and everyone in it. Batwoman was right by killing him. Or Batman could had called Superman and asked for his help but Batman is such a wanker.

Are we suppose to agree with Cass the mass child killer?

Red Hood actively refrains from using lethal force when on Bat-related missions and when in Gotham. If HE can follow the goddamn rules Kate has no excuse.

>he only kill sometimes so that makes it ok
Do you know how stupid that sounds? This is exactly why Batfamily is such a cancer because it's about who the betyer lapdog.

Well Batman in the films had been killing goons left and right. And those he didn't kill, he permanently paralyze them by snapping their spine.