Does anyone else think that part of the reason Sim went on to have his schizophrenic delusions focus on women was...

Does anyone else think that part of the reason Sim went on to have his schizophrenic delusions focus on women was because during his nasty divorce his ex-wife took all of the titles under his burgeoning publishing company to her new company and then proceeded to run them into the ground? I'm not saying Sim would have done a better job, especially since he had to make his comic, but he could have hired a publisher and I think Cerebus would have been a rising tide that carried all the other ships.

Attached: dave-sim.jpg (454x363, 29K)

It probably didn't help.

Seeing how feminism from that time evolved into its current state he wasnt delusional at all in his hatred

You uh, you haven't read Cerebus, have you?

If you actually read his essays he was pretty delusional, but the part of it that made it into Cerebus as the Cirinists was pretty smart.

t. Sup Forums tourist who doesn't know what Cerebus is

You obviously haven't either. His weird religion shit was delusional as fuck but all of the delusion I'm referencing in the OP is from his essays. The Cirinists are a decent satirical take on radical feminism (especially since we're never supposed to see Cerebus himself as any kind of rational alternative).

>You uh, you haven't read Cerebus, have you?
Explain how its so “delusional”, when millennial have proven almost every stereotype as having basis in fact through their actions

>stereotype
Nigger please leave my thread, Sim wasn't about stereotypes he was about specific actions and concepts and a lot of them were pants on head retarded (like the idea that the wives of UN leaders actually had more power in world politics than the leaders themselves)

Some of his text essays are coloured with some bizarre digressions that border on mental illness. To use a parallel example, there are different ways to describe a Jewish "conspiracy" in Western society:

> Hereditary families with large financial assets are promoting their own political/financial goals while justifying their actions through the cover of "human rights"
> Jews are space alien lizard people who are trying to deprive humanity of their "light"

One of them makes sense, even though it's debatable. The other one is how Sim sounds when he tries to write a long-form essay on feminism.

He is a literal schizophrenic. He refused the diagnosis early in his career and then eventually actually went bonkers.

So Dave Sim's books are not for men who like women? Too bad.

My point went way over your head. I'm saying that even if the overall point you're trying to make is true and valid, you can still develop it in a way that comes across as either wrong or erratic. Having a good final point doesn't mean anything if the points you use to develop that point are irrelevant or poorly developed.

This is why you're taught to write essays in school, so that you understand the difference between having good conclusions and good arguments. They're not the same thing.

Yeah, which is why I wouldn't say he's genuinely misogynistic. The guy went through a lot and he might have some valid reasons to feel the way he does, but that has to factor in the guy's mental illness.

Nah Cerebus is still good, I'd say issues 1-219, 265-267, and 289-300 are all excellent. So a solid 234/300 or 78% of the series is amazing. The other stuff isn't even that bad it's just kinda retarded.
The man just had a lot of personal issues including severe mental illness. They shine through in his work in some places but altogether are not the defining part of his work. Unfortunately people can't be assed to read a 6 issue comic to talk about it, let alone the 300 issue odyssey that is Cerebus and just focus on MUH MISOGYNY.

Everything I've read seems less like "took" and more like "had them offloaded onto." Dave could have kept them if he wanted, and every single thing I can find from around the time gives the impression that he was on a bit of an ego-trip. His first foreword in contrast to Deni's last puts a lump in my stomach.

I would have absolutely no qualms with living in the Cirinist state.
>free alcohol, food and lodging for all men
>never have to work as long as you will be a father, but you don't have to raise the children
>women throw themselves at you to fuck you because they don't have rights or power until they become mothers, don't have to worry about raising the children

It's frustrating to see people still arguing whether Sim is a man who hates all women or a dindu nuffin goodboi. His situation is complex. The stuff he wrote about is pretty awful, but it comes less from inherent bigotry and more from delusion clouding his judgement. You can see it in fits and starts across the later parts of the book. Writing that contradicts what he says it means, little snippets of Jaka as the same fully realized character she once was

That's a theory though. I don't mind you having that as a theory and I grant that it could become totally true, but a theory isn't the same thing as a proven fact. I just want to make sure that's clear to you.

That sounds absolutely stupid, especially considering women using men to run things has been a thing since forever.

Daily Reminder:

Dave Sim in 1988
>"I admire the character [of Jaka] far more than any of the other characters in the book.... [she] is someone I would happily spend a lot of time with. She embodies those qualities I always look for in a woman. She has a very simple way of thinking for which she is unapologetic. She's loaded with common-sense and self-confidence. She is direct and has a low threshold for bull-shit. She has virtually no interest in material possessions though she has an appreciation of them. She is almost certainly on the top rung of the karmic ladder and won't be back for another life-time."

Dave Sim in 2001
>"For the first time he [Cerebus] was able to see Jaka precisely as she was and as she is and as she always would be: a spoiled, myopic, insensitive, self-absorbed and self-important harlot princess (quite apart from her position in the heirarchy of the city-state of Palnu)."

Dave couldn't have kept shit, because the basis of his company was that creators owned everything they made. I just assumed that the creators went with Deni because she was the publisher and Dave had his own comic to worry about. Which still makes "took" the wrong word I suppose

>you're a cuck for wanting to hang out with your bros all day drinking and fuck thirsty sluts
Confirmed for never having read Guys, please fuck out of this thread. You don't care about the comic and have never even read an issue you're just here to talk about feminism which is the biggest problem with this board, retards using comics for proxy discussion about politics.

It's almost like the man had a severe mental illness that ruined his perceptions and made him say crazy shit...

Yeah, just like "Cerebus went to hell," the book reads contrary to Dave's stated opinions.

266-267 was the last high point of the comic. I wish we could have had more stories like that for 25 or so issues right up until The Last Day.

Attached: This Aardvark, This Shepherd.jpg (400x613, 44K)

Getting rid of Roach and Elrod was a mistake. Telling us that Elrod never even existed might be unforgivable.

Dave came up with that very early, but it was a bad choice from a narrative standpoint.

I don't know if I believe this. Dave is known to retcon his own work (see ).

Yep, if the last 30 issues before the ending were single issue stories about Cerebus being a bum in the post Cirin world, with a bit more Sword and Sorcery parody sprinkled in the comic would be an undisputed GOAT

Let's also not forget that his wife and mother were who sent him to the hospital during his "Summer of LSD" and that this same summer is when Sim developed the major arc of Cerebus. I can see how a prolifically creative narcissist in the middle of an LSD-induced mental breakdown could develop a theory like the "devouring female void" when the two most important women in your life are also the two biggest impediments to "your enlightenment."

Wow

Real Talk: Dave's weak wrist (or whatever it is that forces him to make MS Paint comics instead of real comics) makes me think that Jeff Smith would have won their boxing match. Dave is lucky that Jeff declined.

>devouring female void
I never can tell if people haven't read Cerebus or if they're just retarded when they bring this up. The light/void thing from the moon is not derogatory towards women at all.
Or is there also an essay using similar language I haven't read?

>from the moon
It pervades the rest of the comic. Remember Chasing YHWH?

And furthermore, when Dave first wrote a male void and female light, he had the void destroy the light accidentally, because the void didn't know this would happen. Then the Judge explains that the void will spend all eternity going through the stages of grief, until scientists discover that a new light is coming and the void plans to do things right.

When Dave retconned it so that males are lights and females are voids, he had the new voids be explicitly malicious. The new voids know exactly what they're doing, they're out to serve themselves and corrupt everything else.

Men get to be a sympathetic void, women get to be an evil void devoid of any redeeming qualities.

Honestly I don't remember much of Chasing YHWH because I thought it was pretty retarded.

The essays from Reads. The Tangent essays. this.

Dave's relatively reasonable metaphysics from the "moon" conversation very quickly turn from a Valentenius/Jung version of cosmic gendered archetypes to "women are the destroyer."

Reminder that "Male light, Female void" used to be "Male void, Female Light."
People only flipped shit because women got the short end of the stick, like always.

See for the difference.

Thank you. I'm sick of people pointing to this without addressing the context. It's much worse in the accompanying essays, but the flip wasn't just a plot twist.

Do you really think that we don't know that Dave is literally an insane misogynist?
>like always
See this is the problem with arguing with feminists, they're completely incapable of accepting that there objective areas of life where they have a massive advantage, criminal and civil court is just a quick one.

We're just discussing the fictional universe of a comic book, calm down.

If you want to discuss custody battles and other off-topic non-comic non-cartoon shit then do it on some other non-Sup Forums board.

you're the one who brought up real life female oppression in the first place, but I will drop it sure. I made this fucking thread, jesus.
>custody
Dohoho, if only it were just custody

I know you can't tell because the earlier posts were deleted, but just ignore him. He shit's up every thread where he can get away with talking about this.

>you're the one who brought up real life female oppression in the first place
No, I didn't. You replied to three different posters, and my post was only about the comic. Now quit jumping at shadows.

>Dohoho
Shut up, soyboy.

Nah I actually was shitting on that guy too. I just want us to actually rationally approach the situation, I hate the DAVE EVIL WOMEN GOOD thing, just like I hate the DAVE WAS A GOOD BOY thing.

Gender politics aside, retcons are (generally) evil. Please don't get upset when people are upset with Dave's retcons.

Cerebus and the whole mess surrounding the strip have always been fascinating to me.

Like, we get all this movies, tv shows, comics, commercials, etc, who constantly portray men as dumber and inferior in comparison to women and nobody says anything, yet, here's a work that flips the tables and everybody complains.

Yeah, I would agree that the metaphysical religious mysticism is fucking bullshit, but almost everybody focus only on the "sexist" part of the work.

Just an observation.

You know user could have meant "Like always" in regards to fictional portrayals, right? Either way, going "this is why you can't argue with feminists" at an off-hand addition to a decent point is just as bad as the extreme stances people take on Dave. It's attacking the arguing party instead of what they have to say and creating massive generalizations instead of rational discourse.

Be the change you want to see.

No, I think he was probably always schizophrenic, given the way it generally progresses from adolescence throughout the individual's life.

Risk factors include such things as having an older father and living in a city, cannabis use (which in all honesty is probably just because it exaggerates the existing symptoms, leading to earlier discovery than would normally be the case), and of course genetics.

In other words, he was most likely born this way; but if you want to say he's such a snowflake that he can't deal with an acrimonious divorce when literally millions of other men his age do that very thing every year, fine. It won't make him better, or you right, but it'll make you feel right, sinking further and further into your own delusions without ever touching reality.

Sim could probably tell you how that feels, OP. It has after all already happened to him.

>constantly portray men as dumber and inferior in comparison to women
But they're always ultimately right.

Who the fuck watches TV for an accurate portrayal of daily life, anyway?

People complain about the stupid dad/down on his luck young man/dimwitted strongman and hypercompetent leader girl/completely perfect mom/impossibly talented high school sweetue archetypes all the time.

And the complaints are more about the fact that it goes into straight up "women are inherently evil and malicious" in the essays and this starts seeping into the comic's narrative.

And the story was more even handed when the men were the flawed half.

And it ties into Dave's craziness IRL.

We've already discussed why it's not just "ugh he did it to WOMEN," why are you selectively ignoring the discussion to create a narrative?

Dude that's venomous, you ok?

it's all psychodellic/tropic drugs, including the massive amounts of LSD Dave was taking when he had his breakdown that lead to the diagnosis

>yet, here's a work that flips the tables and everybody complains.
The sick part is that it doesn't even do that. Cerebus is a retarded asshole throughout the comic and Dave makes that exceedingly clear in the ending. Most Cerebus characters are pieces of shit. People get (rightfully) upset because Jaka was one of the few that wasn't and Dave retconned her into a bitch because he was going crazy.

>but almost everybody focus only on the "sexist" part of the work.
That's because almost no one has actually read it but they want to talk about it.

Look I said I'm going to drop it but I am not the one who tried to leverage a concept from outside the story to make my point stronger, I just responded to someone else doing it in kind.

I agree it was a shitty retcon I liked Jaka's original character a lot. I just don't need the extracurricular bullshit attached.

Why do we allow Sup Forums in this board?

You are doing exactly what you were complaining about. For fuck's sake, user. Stop generalizing the people who don't agree with you.

Pretty sure it was an chronic injury specifically related to the motion of drawing. He's still got a left and his hands would have been wrapped for a boxing match. Dave is also an actual crazy person.

>I just don't need the extracurricular bullshit attached.
Earlier you made a simultaneous reply to three posts. One of them had extracurricular bullshit, the other two were exclusively about the comic and its retcons. You're the one taking on-topic content and bringing it off-topic, so quit projecting.

Look guys, I'm done, I'm sorry if I pissed you off. Stand by the idea that we can't go full retard in either direction on Dave's wild ride.
Have some autism as an apology for my autism.

Attached: Cerebus the hedgehog.jpg (891x818, 113K)

I'm sure you're a great ally to feminism user, like Joss Whedon

I'm always asking about this and no one ever knows but I'll ask again. I'm looking for a comic. There was a comic I read a preview for in the back of a Cerebus issue. It was about a guy who had his friend living with him, she was an artist. She was a feminist and her friends were all radfems and they shit on the guy MC. One time the guy said something to the effect of "The way you talk about white men makes me want to be a minority" and she got really mad at him and told him to fuck off. He then went to her art exhibit that night, drunk as fuck, shaved his head and then made her give him her key to his place back, that was the end of the preview. If anyone knows what it's called I'd appreciate it. I don't know if it was through AV or Renegade or who it was published by. I'll eventually redownload cerebus and look through the backs of the issues if nobody can ever tell me.

Not an argument.

>only a few digital releases of the book
why

So should I read Cerberus? Dpes Sims mental illnesses really harm the book in any way?

There's at least a couple hundred issues written before he went schizo. Plus honestly you'd mostly be reading it for the art.

What’s the best way to read it?

the phonebooks. volumes 1 - 10 are the main story. Or you can download them from cerebusdownloads.com or torrent them since Dave has okay'd piracy.

>And the complaints are more about the fact that it goes into straight up "women are inherently evil and malicious" in the essays and this starts seeping into the comic's narrative.
This. Revanchism is the absolute worse, no matter who does it.

I wonder if Sim hates his mother?

Let’s not bring Freud into this.

Dave would want us to involve historical figures in our discussion. He certainly threw enough into the comic.

Roach always got my nerves. He was funny as a one off character.

>Moore-Gaiman-Sim Roach™
I always found it funny that Sim thinks he belongs in the same league as Moore and Gaiman. I mean, I agree, but he has such an ego to suggest it himself.

Attached: Supressed_Roaches.gif (353x550, 50K)

It's this: but it's also this: He did go out of his mind and large parts of the narrative of Cerebus make no sense but he was also 100% right about feminism. (Not so much about women in general though, e.g. women being actually telepathic and malevolent is a pretty classical presentation of paranoid schizophrenic delusion)

>just like "Cerebus went to hell," the book reads contrary to Dave's stated opinions
Wait, what? I thought the book read obviously like he went to hell, are you saying Sim contradicted that later, or what?

The way the ending presents itself leads far more credence to Cerebus being mistaken about everything even in death, believing he's being dragged into Hell because he can't just accept a good thing if it doesn't conform to his preconceived notions.

The alternative is so extremely bleak it's a bit silly. Everyone except one mopey kinda nice guy Cerebus put on a pedestal went to Hell because fuck you.

>in the same league as Moore and Gaiman
Does this really seem egotistical to you? Moore is a prurient pulp hack who's massively overrated because nerds don't read anything more complex than Spoodermang, and Gaiman knocked one ball out of the park and then never wrote anything worthwhile afterward. He's also a humongous fag as a person.

Okay, no, then I just have to disagree with you. It absolutely read to me like Cerebus realizing once it was too late that he was now indeed permanently fucked. That was my spontaneous interpretation based on uh, the entire comic up to that point.

>Gaiman knocked one ball out of the park and then never wrote anything worthwhile afterward. He's also a humongous fag as a person.

This sounds more like you're describing Sim himself.

No I think he has real mental illnesses that he's ignored and which have been bound up in a kind of misogynist philosophy which is actually pretty close to some real ones from 18th/19th century Germany.

>Moore is a prurient pulp hack who's massively overrated because nerds don't read anything more complex than Spoodermang
What Moore have you actually read my man

Cerebus is longer than Sandman, but also that was kind of my point. I don't think grouping himself with Moore and Gaiman is like putting the crown of glory on his head with his own hands, as though he'd said Plato and Kant, or Leonardo and Rembrandt. Rather it's a depressing amount of realism about your own limitations, like I'd hope he would have had more self-esteem than that.

I don't think Sim views Moore or Gaiman as lowly as you do. He puts them on a pedestal, then believes that he deserves to be on a pedestal too.

I know that's what Dave was gunning for, but that's such an absurd idea. Throughout the whole comic Cerebus has been a flawed ass motherfucker who is regularly wrong and awful. Now, as he's plotting to kill kin and dies falling off a chair, we're supposed to think, oh, no, he actually has the insight to realize that truly this isn't exactly what it looks like, it's ACTUALLY the opposite!

He's a deluded old pig. He bases his assumption off the stupidest possible rationale. It works off the assumption that every other character in the comic went to hell despite the diversity of their character. Based on the rest of the comic, Cerebus is wrong yet again in his final moments. To read it as "yes, EVERYONE is fucked because they weren't like muh Rick!" is so fucking stupid, authorial intent be damned.

V, Watchmen, League, From Hell, Tom Strong, some Swamp Thing, bits of Promethea, even a few of his absolutely 30000% mad Lovecraft recent shit.

The only things that were genuinely worth reading were V and the first two books of League, everything else is him way overreaching his ability plus his weird, shriveled old hobo boner intruding on the narrative. Watchmen in particular is so hilariously overrated I don't even know where to begin. But this isn't a thread about Alan Moore, so that's just as well.

>The only things that were genuinely worth reading were V and the first two books of League
People overrate Watchmen to hell and back, but if you can't appreciate the extreme quality of craft that went into the page composition, you're a pretentious wank. That's all there is to it. It's a relatively simple story with a lot of little details, but to brush it aside like that is ridiculous.

>plotting to kill kin
My dude, they are doing something absolutely unforgivably revolting and that's why he reacts.

>he actually has the insight to realize that truly this isn't exactly what it looks like, it's ACTUALLY the opposite!
He doesn't even nearly get suspicious at first, he's totally convinced by the whole thing until he notices Rick isn't there. Also this sort of deathbed clarity thing is a classic trope of literature. (And Cerebus is deluded, sure, but mainly by his greed; he's also very clever and cunning, and it seemed obvious to me that he got that back when his soul was freed from the infirmities of age. Also at that point he's got nothing left to be greedy for, so it doens't cloud his judgment.)

>muh Rick
But it's Dave who presents Rick as moral and good, not Cerebus. The latter-half narrative actually justifies the idea.

damn dude I sure believe you have a well developed and non-contrarian sense of taste

What I found kind of interesting about Dave Sim's wacko philosophy was how unoriginal it is. A lot of it just seems to be taken and assimilated from other, older sources. I feel like the true crazies are also truly inventive.

>extreme quality of craft
It's not quality, it's just sperging. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an autismo sperging out about tiny details would be respected on Sup Forums, but shit like being able to follow sugar packets through the comic or symmetry in page spreads actually don't make a comic better or constitute good graphic storytelling. Moore's extreme need for page control is a *tic*, like Bendis' ridiculous dialogue.

What comics/books/art do you like user?

>Implying I'm talking about shit like itty bitty details strewn about or symmetry rather than the excellent timing, use of space, page design, and other strong design elements found throughout the book.

Okay.
Please, tell me more about what I think and how stupid I am.

I think you could make a pretty solid case for Sane Dave being highly creative and Crazy Dave being derivative and obsessive about perceived false patterns in existing things (like the Bible). (Understanding Sane Dave and Crazy Dave to be aspects of his personality that compete and interweave, not like before/after the psychotic break or anything like that, although Crazy Dave only really appears after a certain point.)

Sandman is great, the good parts of Cerebus are great although even in the early comics I find the recurring comics parodies through [Foo]roach to be extremely tiresome besides his original appearance, Planetary and Transmetropolitan are both fantastic, Barks' Duck comics, Moebius, Asterix, Corto Maltese, the parts of Hellboy that were actually drawn by Mignola, Obscure Cities, I've been enjoying Dungeon Meshi a lot. I could go on but that seems excessive, just understand this is a selection off the top of my head and not exhaustive.

>excellent timing, use of space, page design
I strongly disagree that these are good in Watchmen. I don't think there's much more to be said than that, especially in a thread that isn't about it. Can we go back to Dave Sim instead of you guys losing your minds because someone can tell Alan Moore is a hack?

I love how you're so far up your own ass that you have to strawman everything. It can't be that we disagree and think you're being a prick about your opinions, it's that we're losing our minds and he's objectively shit because your higher level brain deems it so.

Seriously, stop jerking yourself off.

>Ellis above Moore
>Transmet or Planetary above Watchmen
loving every laugh m8

I'm just not convinced, I guess, and statements like yours which are purposefully exaggerated and controversial do annoy me. Whether or not you like Moore's comics (and I don't like all of them) I think you're a contrarian idiot to discount his skills as a writer. Your list is just like, what? 'Things people say are good, but not the things everyone says are good'?

I don't see any indication of you having a personal taste or a real assessment of quality. You just seem like a hipster fuck.

>shitloss continues unabated

Hipsters in my Sup Forums?!

>You just seem like a hipster fuck.
Or he's 12.

I think he'd have to be an edgy 12-year-old to think Transmetropolitan is good.

I think Transmetropolitan has some really great single issues.