Do you agree with John K that the scripts in the animation are unnecessary and what is important is the visual...

Do you agree with John K that the scripts in the animation are unnecessary and what is important is the visual narrative? and that things with complex scripts should be reserved for live action and comic.
To a certain extent, I agree

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The shortcomings of SU, KO, Adventure Time, and many other modern board-driven shows demonstrate that having talented writers who can write for cartoons has a higher chance of giving you a better product.

twitter.com/crackmccraigen/status/384691210859708417

If Craig McCracken can make Wander, one of the cartooniest shows in recent years, work with scripts, then any production should. Which only makes me wonder what the fuck Ian is talking about when he says shit like pic related.

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Except that mentality is the entire reason that animation struggles to gain any kind of recognition or acceptance beyond “it’s for kids”.

You can marvel at gorgeous animation and art style all you want, but if there isn’t an interesting story to carry it then all you can do is endlessly repost five second webms.

I think that scripts are mostly fine as long as the writers understands cartoons and how to use them in favor of the show's narrative. Having a close relationship between boarders and script writers should be essential.
The script driven seasons of SpongeBob seem to be doing that and quality has actually gone up (compared to previous post-movie seasons).

the inclusion of scripts in the writing process has no bearing on the amount of things a show can get away with. The reason creators stick with the fart jokes is because they know that if they map out an entire story to tell like Avatar, it'll be an uphill battle against what it is they are allowed to do with it

>Uphill battle

Not online there isn't, Netflix will let you do pretty much anything at this point.

>Except that mentality is the entire reason that animation struggles to gain any kind of recognition or acceptance beyond “it’s for kids"
Fantasia wasn't written with a script and it's one of the most respected pieces of animation ever created.

Ghibli films also don't have scripts and they have a similar level of respect that most studios outside of Disney/Pixar don't receive.

All those movies Disney is remaking from their old catalog of animation that people still go see in the millions weren't written with scripts either.

Take your garbage opinion to the trash.

Well technically it didn't work out since Wander got canceled

And "good writers" wouldn't make those shows any better. Probably worse actually since tv writers are low level scum

>police continuity, tighten the story

They sure don't do a good job doing it

John K is also wrong, without scripts you get a mess, especially on story driven shows.

Nope. That's a very silly thing to say. Intricate animation is entirely scripted from storyboards and direction. Much more so than anything else, because planning/executing animation is a lot more time consuming compared to live action, because it is created from scratch. You can't improvise a visual masterpiece (generally speaking. It may be possible for avant garde), but it's not something that will magically appear by sheer will. Animation actually has major advantages because of the high importance/notion that everything is timed and done perfectly.

I get that he probably means verbal script/storytelling, but no, he's still wrong. It's all screenplay. It all has the same importance and relevance. I don't agree that everything in animation needs spoken voice acting (again, this is very evident from the history of animation, and there are plenty of advantages in the field). There is something quite pure and beautiful about creating something that is mute and has universal appeal. But that doesn't mean I want everything to be silent. Variety is always nice. If someone can crack out a great story, why not? I don't understand the single-minded dichotomy that everything has to be one thing, or the other.

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>You can marvel at gorgeous animation and art style all you want, but if there isn’t an interesting story to carry it then all you can do is endlessly repost five second webms.

Another issue is that people lack the understanding that all of these need to work together. Not every show should have a top-tier animation if the writing is meant to be pretty low bar. Aqua teen is a great example of the style matching the content and it greatly adds to the show overall. Venture bros also does this, the style is retro and refined like the writing.

Except I’m not talking about juvenile humor, I’m talking about stories and themes.

Lack of a good script means that plot lines are kept relatively basic, characters flat, and themes almost nonexistent because the goal of the show shifts episode by episode.

And it isn’t hard to actually make money off of a show with a panned our story. If anything it’s easier than ever before in the age of streaming and binge watching. It’s just hard to sell to networks who are too terrified to step outside of their cash cow comfort zones.

>Well technically it didn't work out since Wander got canceled
That's not really up to the writers. To counter your point, Gravity Falls was script driven and a huge success, so being cancelled or not isn't really the determination of what production method works.

You could argue how much it attracted a fanbase, but even that is not so black and white because you would need to factor in a studio constantly changing the air times or just straight up not airing a show like Nick did to Harvey Beaks or Disney did to Wander.

I think one of the few ways to observe and see what method works for a show is how much of the fanbase jumps ship. AT started to decline because of the loose direction so they jumped ship to SU. Same thing happened to that show and now those people jumped to KO. And I'm sure KO fans will jump to something else.

>Fantasia wasn't written with a script and it's one of the most respected pieces of animation ever created.
It had no vocals, for one. And for another the music served as the script. Each song has a theme and the animation was produced to visualize it.

Of course not. Limiting a creative medium to a very specific method of expression is detrimental to the possibilities it can offer. Visual expression is a very important part of animation, it's its biggest advantage, but it should play hand-in-hand with complex, detailed storytelling. If we don't expand the creative potential of the medium, TV animation will never progress beyond nice-looking 11 minute shorts, hell that's not even true anymore as board-driven shows like Steven Universe show that that method of creative direction is still flawed. Basically, you have to have good writers, and good boarders, along with a good showrunner to make a truly good show.

By the way, before more people start using Steven Universe and it's ilk as examples of why animation needs scripts

The methods they're using to tell stories are legitimate, it's just that the people they get suck ass. Since most of these shows don't have true Layout men anymore they need to rely more on the storyboard for how the final scenes will look when they ship them over to Korea. Normally consistency wouldn't be that important in a storyboard since the drawings would be fixed by a cleanup artist or animator in the old days, but with shows that want their artists to show off their individual styles, you have to pay attention more to what you're drawing or else you get retarded rushed drawings on the screen instead of off model yet consistent and good drawings like in something like Ren and Stimpy

If scripts are not important and only the visual narrative is important, watch your cartoons with the volume off, faggot.

My fucking god you really don't get anything

Gravity ended earlier than intended and trying to work from Alex's scripts caused problems in the production

>This is a pretty important article, most recent example of this abuse would be Gravity falls. I heard it was a horror to board on, 45-50 page scripts for a 22 minute episode, and it had to be completed in 4 weeks between 3 people! then half of that work would be thrown out because the episodes would be over time by 10-15 minutes partly because of too many script pages, but also because the show runner would change his mind when it came time to cut the animatic, and it was a TV series! Safe to say that a few people experienced severe burnout because of that shit pipeline, thanks to one person's ego and a studio trying to cut corners just so their bottom line would look good on paper.

cartoonbrew.com/educational/long-take-draw-storyboard-panel-137920.html#disqus_thread

Music and sound effects are scripted as well, by the way.

I think that there shouldn't be any inalienable guidelines in art and John K is a fool for thinking there should be.

It should depend on what's right for the individual work.

Retard of the year award goes to

Then explain it to me if you're such a learned one

Music can't be a "script" you colossial faggot. All golden age cartoons were timed to music, I guess they actually had scripts then.

What is it about Speccy nerds like John K and John Carmack that make them think their skill is the most valuable and writers are nothing but an afterthought?

If you think John K is a fool for saying this then you must think the same for Chuck Jones who had the same opinion

>what is timing
>what is musical narrative
>what is silent cartoons' music was made post instead of pre

No one cares about writers in visual mediums

You should put a lot of effort into both. Animation is a time-consuming pain in the ass, and animating something that's not funny/written well is a waste.

Ironically John K's early R&S episodes had great writing.

Carl Stalling, Fred Quimby and other golden age composers didn't write music until after they saw the storyboard from the directors and being told what kind of mood they want.

>Gravity ended earlier than intended
That has nothing to do with it being script-driven. You can find early interviews that suggest Alex wanted three seasons but by the season one finale, he wanted to quit because he was burnt out. A result from his own inexperience in running a show. He was only convinced to do a second season by a couple of people. Disney begged him for a third season and he said no.

>and trying to work from Alex's scripts caused problems in the production
That's poor management, that does not describe the shortcomings of a script-driven process, only Alex's leadership.

A little, yeah. Being board driven works for the short subjects he excelled at. He's foolish for thinking it applies to all of them, though.

It's like saying movies don't need scripts. They're just both forms of visual storytelling. Some films work great on improvisation and some don't.

you mean the music was written after a story treatment and rough sketch and then the cartoon was animated to the music? sounds much like a script.

*Scott Bradley I mean

That does not have script does not mean that they can not have good history, basically everything is counted through the narrative and dialogs put on the storyboard

>That has nothing to do with it being script-driven
Yeah it does clearly. Alex even asked Rebecca had she was successfully (for two seasons) able to have a continuity based cartoon done thru storyboards. Alex was ready to give up after season 1. It's on youtube, Butch Hartman i think uploaded it

So according to you, a shows ratings is determined by whether or not it's script or board-driven?

It's a wonder any live-action TV show does well then.

>Being board driven works for the short subjects he excelled at.
As was said earlier pretty all of Disney's animated canon was "written" in only storyboards. The same movies Disney is still banking on the nostalgia of today.

The entire story is already laid out through drawings before it's shown to composers.

not if it's just score. fantasia is different because it's made in reverse. the cartoon was made to the score.

>So according to you, a shows ratings is determined by whether or not it's script or board-driven?
This is an argument you pulled out of your ass and if we wanna talk ratings Gravity plummeted in season 2 albeit some of it being DXD's fault for the several hiatuses

In the area of cartoons is preferable to them to be written with storyboards instead of scripts. Live action is a different case

I was talking about golden age cartoon shorts but you"re right there. It still isn't a "script" though since the animators are drawing their own interpretations of the music. Nothing about Dance of the Hours requires it to star Hippos unlike say a script about Tuskegee Airman requiring to star africian americans.

He is right in most cases.

However he himself is not someone who should ever be in charge of a cartoon, be it storyboarding or whatever, because his sense of humor is absolutely terrible lolsorandum shit. Finely exemplified by Ren & Stimpy becoming leagues better after he got sacked.

>This is an argument you pulled out of your ass

>Gravity ended earlier than intended (This was after I mentioned it was a success despite being script-driven)

>Well technically it didn't work out since Wander got canceled

>In the area of cartoons is preferable to them to be written with storyboards instead of scripts.

So why is Wander Over Yonder one of the most fun cartoons in recent years that actually uses cartoon visual humor despite being made with scripts? Meanwhile, KO tries to utilize lots of cartoon philosophy and is a fucking mess.

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most importantly, cartoon writers are a bunch of tv and film rejects who substitute self-aware references for comedy and have a limited stock of around 12 episode formulas

there aren't any honored cartoon writers. nobody grows up wanting to be a writer for cartoons. they're just a small group of hollywood wannabes.

this grows directly out of the fact that a cartoon writer is nonsensical. it's like being a sports writer. not somebody who commentates sports, or talks about the latest happenings in sports. somebody who writes what an athlete does on a field. that's exactly as stupid as a cartoon writer is.

you can't meaningfully write anything about what is in a potential cartoon drawing, so essentially every show with cartoon writers is just animated radio where stiff figures say mediocre dialogue to each other.

Musker and Clements didn't write scripts?

Well there you go you just answered your own query

John K is a weinerboy

Except for the Golden age Simpsons where they revised the scripts as much they had to, to get everything perfect