I like her, truth be told. MCU Widow is as boring as it gets, but I find 616 Widow, when properly written, rather interesting. The mistake most writers make, is have her be this no-nonsense, dry and jerkass cunt, with nothing beneath that. She’s at her best when she has an underlying compassion and longing for a normal life, instead of being a caricature.
At the same time, I think she could headline a solo book, but the MU has gotten so intertwined, that such B-Listers could benefit more from being in a team book, or supporting characters in an A-Lister’s title (say, Cap or Iron Man).
Plus, redhead Russians in black leather are hot...
Most definitely. Really, both his Punisher and Widow were two of my fave, but underlooked titles in that era. It's a shame he was dropped by Marvel.
Eh, she's had fewer than other females in comics, not to mention it was a relationship each time, and not a fuck-buddy thing. Plus, Matt, Barnes, Herc Clint & Stark are all Best Boys. Then there's her ex-husband, Red Guardian. But considering even MJ was close to cheating, Black Cat is a coalburner, Sue is a lying whore, Frost was a high-class prostitute, etc, etc, I'd say Widow's one of the purest gals in Marvel.
William Baker
Bump, I guess. Who do you ship her with? Favorite costume? Characterization?
Honestly I can relate to her MCU characterization of automatically pretending to be like whatever the person she's currently talking to would find the most persuasive because that's been her survival strategy since she was a kid. Poetic really that no one else gets it and just thinks she has no characterization at all.
Jayden Thomas
I'm on the same boat. Natasha is at her most enjoyable for me when she's rising above her origins, either by living the cool superhero life or by helping others from becoming what she was. Which is why I really loved the Yelena Belova plotline from her MK minis. Widow went to ungodly fucking lengths to keep her from becoming a new Widow, and the best part for me is that she actually succeeded. At least, for a few years. That's my favorite Natasha: when she's the one that Got Away, and is ready to do anything to show others how to Get Away too. Waid and Samnee's run did a bit of that too but the resolution was a bit too easy for me. At any rate, it's better than yet another "A mysterious figure from Natasha's past forces her to become a fugitive!" which happens so often, I'm sure SHIELD agents have a betting pool. >Agents, what I'm about to tell you is top secret. One of our most skilled operatives has gone rogue and-- >Is it Widow? >... yes. >FUCK yes! Pay up!
I've always appreciated how, in that issue, while everyone's intros are full of BendisBendisBendisBendisBendis, Widow's double-page is just completely silent ass kicking and Ares' :3 face.
Stop being fags about it, just post the damn pictures
Jonathan Reed
Fuck that shit. Black Widow if anything is a very chauvinistic character. She is the leather clad femme fatale, product of the Cold War era. She's a bond girl who got a comic book of her own. The concept is so dated, the movies can't flesh her out too much without the eternity formula, because how is the fuck a 37 yr old an ex KGB agent?
Thanks. I'd actually love to see them lean even more on that in the future. Stop making stories about Widow's past coming back to haunt her and make stories about her building the future. Something like starting a covert bad guy rehab spy web, built out of deserters from AIM, HYDRA, HAMMER, etc. Put their skills to work at saving the world while also keeping them safe, and more importantly, showing by example how one can overcome their past, get over guilt, and use what they have learned to do good. Something a bit like Modesty Blaise's criminal organization but centered around redemption, only this time, instead of Widow seeking it, it's her showing others how to achieve it. Do something like Yelena's story but on a bigger scale and with as little Red Room jackassery as possible.
Really fun character. One of the less chatty female characters.
Black Widow is canon one of the best fighters in Marvel, she can stand equal with Elektra and Daredevil. She's an excellent shot to boot.
I think she works in the same vein as Elektra and the Punisher as an anti-hero. As A hero it's a bit of a waste of her mean streak and willingness to kill.
Hopefully she's being reset to anti-hero status in Tales of Suspense.
Camden King
Edmondson's run started that, but Waid threw it in the trash for more of the cliche.
Thomas Ramirez
So she becomes Big Boss and sets up Outer Heaven? I had something similar in mind, but with Stark. I think I’ve posted it before already... I generally enjoy these “one man wages war against the world” stories, like Big Boss’ or Captain Flint’s, hence why I like the idea of someone in the MU doing something similar.
Luke Martinez
I liked that Edmonson gave her more standard spy adventures instead of more dredging up the past, but he also went a bit too far into the "Woe is me I have red in my ledger" guilt-tripping Nat for my taste. Still enjoyed it tho'. Especially the bits with Hill.
The main difference would that, while Outer Heaven was about giving soldiers a way to wage war for war's sake, without nationalities or empty causes, Nat's "web" would be more about helping people deal with lingering feelings of guilt at having worked for criminal organizations, like Nat herself had after leaving the Red Room, by channeling their skills to more altruistic pursuits. But yeah, for the sake of keeping her character agency, I'd definitely make it all be her brainchild, built with her own resources and connections rather than being a SHIELD initiative or some shit.
Yeah, the ideology of her “Outer Heaven” would obviously have to be different; I was just talking about the core concept. Who would be on her “crew” though? For example, I had something like this done: >Stark as Big Boss >Zeke Stane as “Eli” >Clint Barton as Ocelot >Banner as Emmerich >Widow as Kaz >Toni Ho as Quiet
Kinda, yeah. I’ve been saying for a while that Stark needs to get a bit more militarized again. Stories where he stops putting up with shot and does his thing always turned out great. Hell, Armor Wars was basically a one man crusade. And Force Works should come back. Having him set up his own Outer Heaven, but for the opposite reasons of Big Boss, would be interesting. I also really want an excuse for more Stark/Nat/Barton interactions. They all debuted in the same book, in the Iron Man segments, so they’re pretty tied in my opinion.
Hunter Wright
Post the next page. The “marry me” always gets me.
Ayden Fisher
I'd rather go mostly OC's, first because I'm too lazy to do the research, and secondly because a big part of the story for me would be that Nat has to "win" at the end. She has to be able to turn a bunch of broken ass dudes and chicks into spy heroes, or at least leave them living normal lives. But if you're using already existing villains, there's always the chance they'll just go back to being bad two years from now. And if you're using characters who are already redeemed or on the way there, then that's too obvious. What I would like to do, instead, is have each character come from a different villainous organization, and try to think what their mindsets would be like and what kind of baggage they'd come with. So stuff like: >Tech-obsessed Ex-AIM member who freelanced for splinter groups like RAID but grew disillusioned with their mad bids for power instead of focusing on advancing science without borders >Former member of Osborne's HAMMER jetpack anti-superhero task force who hates superhero in-fighting and lackluster damage control, fucked off after Siege with his tools and has been running secret mountain rescue missions in the Appalacchians or something >Geneticist/viral specialist press-ganged into joining HYDRA under threats to family, massive guilt complex about selfishly giving them tools to unleash seriously fucked up shit So something like that, a patchwork of mostly non-powered people from different backgrounds who all have their own motivations and plots going on. Including one who's an actual double agent spying on Nat's progress, but eventually goes classic Thunderbolts, gets a taste for being a hero, and at the end has to choose between his divided loyalties. And of course, Nat knew all the time and let it happen as part of the "therapy."
I would also add: >Ex U-Man that learned about Sublime and is terrified of him and is obsessed with her own transhuman evolution. He seeks to uplift humanity and for humanity to grow in new, beautiful, perfected forms. Is a hermaphrodit and consists of two merged brains, one female one male, is fucking weird >Ex-disciple of Dormammu, grew up in a family that worshipped him for centuries, but after her family was killed by a rival cult, she fled and found solace in BW organisation,
Henry Martin
Always good to have someone who knows how to deal with supernatural cultist blyats. But yeah, both sound cool. It's all about turning mooks into characters.
I'm in the group that thinks ScarJo in general still looks fine , but the blonde eyebrows in IW suck. However, the fact that we're getting a black widow movie in 2020, instead of between im2 and the first avengers, when she was hotter and hollywood was more fapservicey than in the "current year", is making me beyond angry.
I like it, I have to say. We generally have too few stories where characters fight for something. These days it's all about the same old, same old.
Jonathan Allen
I haven't read any BW. Is she usually a tough wo-MAN who don't need no man you misogynist pig, or is she a 70s-80s bond villainess, but a good person?
Brandon Sanchez
>says something bad about a female character >muh MRA So the memes are real.
Jackson Perez
She's usually a spy/anti-hero. No ((current year)) politricks
David Smith
Be honest. How many of the guys she kills are men who don't take her seriously for being a woman?
Cooper Martinez
I honestly don't see that. If it happened I don't remember it. She's usually presented in the same way as Elektra and other bad was female characters. She's well known, no reason for her to be underestimated.
Robert Martin
Yeah, a lot of characters in mainstream superhero books tend to be very reactive, getting dragged around by the plot. But you look at how the Yelena storyline developed, and you can see Natasha go from reactive to proactive, and actually get a decent result from it. So I'd like to expand on that, and do it in a way that fits her character and gives her a motivation beyond dark tortured past coming back to haunt her for the thousandth time. Also, I really fucking want to do some Modesty Blaise stuff with her, give her that sense of endless experience, effortless confidence and massive web of contacts that stretches beyond regular Avengers stuff.
Not really. The only book I can think of that was like that was "The Things they say about Her", which was so "muh stronk womyn", that it felt like reading a parody. She's generally pretty levelheaded, and the already mentioned Endomndson/Noto book is great.
Brody Rodriguez
good, good it pisses me off when that happens. for crying out loud, I once read a story where a guy groped wonder woman while knowing who she was.
I hate to say it, but outside of ASS, Black Widow never really wowed me
Sebastian Campbell
The one time that happened was way back in Richard K. Morgan's terrible minis back in the mid 2000s. But Rucka, Brubaker (in her guest appearances on Captain America), Edmonson and Waid/Samnee's runs mostly avoided that. The closest I can think of would be Liu's run, but there, the underestimating is more because Nat's a regular human instead of having any superpowers. And Liu's run is fucking fantastic any way.
>Yeah, a lot of characters in mainstream superhero books tend to be very reactive, getting dragged around by the plot. Yup. It's the reason why, I think at least, the people tend to like the villains more. At least they have a plan or an agenda that they actively pursue. It's true for me anyway. It's why I like the grey area "good guys" like Fury, Stark, Punisher, and the like. I can appreciate a good Cape Story like GL as well, sure, but when everything is rather aimless, you tend to lose interest quickly. It works with someone like Jonah Hex, who's just a bounty hunter, but when you've got all these awesome abilities and powers, you'd think you'd try to do more than wait for bank to be robbed.
Dylan Nguyen
>anons realising reactive mcs suck, which is why people enjoy villains Good posts
Sebastian Watson
>Richard K. Morgan's terrible minis back in the mid 2000s Ah yeah, that was the guy. The whole thing really read like a parody, no joke. From the anti-abortion evil right--wingers to the interracial couple where the only decent man in the whole book was the black guy, it all felt like an elaborate joke. Widow going "my last present was perfume" was a WTF moment, because: 1) When the hell does she even go on dates? 2) If she does, I assume she uses a cover that's as far removed from her actual personality as its gets. 3) If a friend gave that to her, then it's either Fury, Cap, Stark or Barton, and I don't see any one of them buying that. Not to mention the whole bit with Yelena fucking around or making comments about Matt's junk, or Nat calling Matt, and when he showed up to heelp, she gave him the "I don't need no man" talk.
Nicholas Reed
As controversial as CW was, I liked how certain characters at the very least took a more active role to doing things, instead of standing around and waiting for things to happen. Hate HYDRA, Doom or AIM as much as you want, but at least they have SOME goal. On the other hand, "evil for the lulz" villains are also equally boring with the reactive heroes.
Joseph Cruz
I'm in a weird boat where genuinely selfish villains > goody two shoes heroes that just save people and don't punish baddies >>>>>>>>>>>>shit>>>>>>>>>>>> self-righteous fascist heroes that impose punishments/sentences
Juan Howard
Generally, people like characters with clear, self-established goals who work towards them, especially when they succeed to some degree. So think of something like Punisher MAX, where sure, Frank will never stop crime, but at the end of the arc (usually) the guy he set out to hunt is dead and the threat is neutralized. But when you look at something like fucking Jigsaw, where up until Remender's run he was just constantly getting away, it's frustrating as fuck. So you gotta give your characters goals, and you gotta let them work towards them. Which is my second pitch for a Widow run would be a gritty spy thriller about her getting fed the fuck up with these motherfucking Red Room fucking up her motherfucking life, and just goes around the world systematically killing anyone who was even remotely related to them. Which of course doesn't sit well with her friends once she starts gunning for people who aren't immediate threats, but they know very well how much these things come back to haunt her so everyone's got to do some serious thinking while Nat is on her murder spree.
My absolute most hated part of that mini is that page where she talks about the Widow's Bite, how they're clunky and cannot be reverse-engineered so they're always breaking down and how sometimes she shot herself in the hand while using them and one day just took them off, and the art equates them to slave manacles. Also, they completely retconned the fuck out of her already kinda messed up past, and the second mini's main villain was THE COSMETICS INDUSTRY. Awesome Sienkiewicz art, tho'.
it was much more a jab at how much I disliked your idea than at how much I dislike current marvel sorry
Christian Howard
>people get killed if they are murdered.jpg
Adrian Gutierrez
It's the opposite for me. Dunno, I like the whole "getting my hands dirty and doing questionable things to shape the future according to my beliefs" stories. It's humane, in that it portrays the protagonists as a tad biased and selfish, and not paragons of humanity.
>So you gotta give your characters goals, and you gotta let them work towards them. Yup. People hated the ProReg folks, but I always found them at the very least respectable. And from what we saw in the CW2 SW Mini, they were ultimately in the right.
>Which is my second pitch for a Widow run [...] I'd read that. I had a similar story pitch with Punisher getting intel from Stark and going on a world-wide murder spree on secret cabals, corrupt politicians and celebrities, just taking out the trash in general. No costumes, no code-names, just killing.
>My absolute most hated part of that mini [...] It's actually tough to think of just one thing. Maybe where she's in a boat, and calls that Mafioso's daughter a piece of shit for merely existing.
Cameron Ward
Why is her name Romanov? Wouldn't that mean she's a man?
Jackson Foster
Lads I really like Clint and Nat together tbqhwyf.
Jace White
It's more personal, I guess. I despise the concept of a punitive justice system. I'm all for rehab. That and self righteousness rubs me off really badly. Unless it's just a mask for overt selfishness (like Doom) Like, I know it's Sup Forums, but it's popular enough that probably even Sup Forumsmrades have read it. In Berserk I experienced levels of anger/hatred for Mozgus that were millions of times bigger than what I felt for Griffith.
Aiden Ortiz
That's OK, man. Got a good smile outta me. 'sides, there's a reason why it's my B pitch.
You know shit's going to get ugly when the very first pages are about how the dude sent to kill her is totes underestimating THE MOTHERFUCKING BLACK WIDOW 'cause she's a laydee.
Well, I'mso you can see why your idea isn't working for me. I have my own idea for a BW story. Might mention it in the ff thread that's up. She'll be a deuteragonist.
Adrian Hernandez
>I'd read that. I had a similar story pitch with Punisher getting intel from Stark and going on a world-wide murder spree on secret cabals, corrupt politicians and celebrities, just taking out the trash in general. No costumes, no code-names, just killing. I had a similar idea, but with Ghost instead of Pun-isher. Ghost seeks to destroy athe world's schemers, power players, manipulators. A cyberter(ro)rist seeking justice with no regard to any law and system. Ghost will bring down any conspiracy, real and imagined.
I feel it works better as a ship best left in the past, as a nice memory rather than a longterm thing.
>I despise the concept of a punitive justice system. I'm all for rehab. Me, I prefer the "bullet to the head" scenario. Depending on the criminal and their actions, that is. But if there's one thing I know, it's that people don't really change, not deep down. If we're still talking comic books, Carnage needs to be put down, for example.
I absolutely agree that a lot of it depends on how the character acts about it. If Nat were like, >"Yeah I'm gonna kill these fucks that YOU PEOPLE do NOTHING about because only I have the BALLS to do something about it!" That'd be bullshit. That's like someone trying to ape only the most surface aspects of Garth Ennis. What I'm thinking would be Nat going, >"Look, I literally cannot cross the street without some dude from the Red Room trying to shank me. I've been declared an enemy of the state five times in three years. I've been manipulated, brainwashed, targeted, my friends have been hurt, and I'm frankly sick of it. I'm going to end this and cauterize it and if I do it well, me and the world will never have to worry about this again. And I'm willing to deal with the moral consequences of these acts."
Also, we're all sharing our stories here, so feel free to post it. I'm interested.
I imagine Captain Marvel criticising Batman's and JL's approach to criminals with something like what you said, along the lines that it's impossible to rehabilitate/redeem some people and batman replying that he and his friends are superheroes, so when they're met with the impossible, they try harder.
Anthony Walker
It really was an awful mini in general. She honestly hasn't had much luck with her series. I also didn't care much for that one OGN or something where she goes undercover and falls in love with a "muh super-sciznxce, muh evil borders" guy after fucking him a few times. I always saw her as a Sam Fisher type of person, not the kind to routinely use aliases and fuck randoms for intel.
I posted my idea before. The gist of it was that Stark would gather intel on rich people and their wrongdoings (think Pizzagate or whatever, but since it's Marvel even more bizzare), and anonymously pass it off to Frank. As Frank wrecks and destabilizes entire corporations and nations, Stark comes in and buys News Stations, the remains of said companies, everything, all to get a tighter grip on the future and steer it where he wants.
Julian Baker
Well. She'd be one of the two mains. I admit I've only seen ScarJo BW -I'm mostly a dc person-, so I'd probably be a bit OOC with regard to the comics. I want to use more the spying/handling people/interpersonal skills/seduction angle than having her be an assassin. Not my cup of tea. The story would involve a bit of politics , puppet rebellions/governments and potential annexation of a small country through a long keikaku from the other main. Doom
Jacob Butler
How so? Is he known for pointing out linguistic nuances?
Camden Flores
"Batman's" stance would theoretically be valid as well,but personally I prefer someone like Stark, who does the things nobody else will. Him saving his company instead of Ghost is something no other superhero would do, but his reasoning is still the ultimately moral one. There's only so much "muh second chances" I can stomach when we're talking about mass murderers.
>I want to use more the spying/handling people/interpersonal skills/seduction angle NO! Nat a pure. PURE!
Elijah Edwards
>nat is pure >laughing evans
Aiden Hill
Funny enough, that's actually very close Widow's original shtick when she first appeared as a villainess in Iron Man. Less action, more subterfuge and manipulating other people. Usually Clint. So if done well, it could definitely work.
For that and also for often throwing those small snippets of extremely detailed information written in overtly technical language. It's pretty charming.
Remember Deadly Origin, which was all about how DIRTY and TAINTED she was being made to feel at everyone who'd ever gotten close to her falling ill?
At least learn to greentext properly user... Also, see >Remember Deadly Origin, which was all about how DIRTY and TAINTED she was being made to feel at everyone who'd ever gotten close to her falling ill? I... kinda liked DO.It gave me IronWidow pics after a long drought.
I'm not RogueFag. What I am although is... complicated. I've started a bit too many fads since last year...
Lincoln Walker
Fucking stop posting this in anything Widow or Stark related you fucking shipper.
Carter Scott
Could not possibly care any less about her.
Eli Mitchell
You're gonna have to go waaay back for that. All the way to her original appearances in late 60s Avengers.
Why not both?
I like one or two bits of it, like the russian guys in the silo being total Widow fanboys, but I hated that Cornell had to awkwardly glue together Morgan's retconned backstory to Widow's previous past (which admittedly is more on Morgan, but I'd argue they could've just as easily snuck that under a rug and don't even mention it) and I particularly disliked how the final boss ended up being not just yet another figure from Nat's past, but also one of the few surviving members of her supporting cast. Dem Granov covers, tho'.
