Non believers may disregard this post

What's your stance on a god or a higher power Sup Forums?

>god by definition, is all knowing & all powerful
>if he isn't all knowing and all powerful, it's not a higher power or a god in any sense
>If god is real, all choices & actions must be predetermined because it knows everything
>Therefor, it is impossible for god to coexist with free will
>god and free will directly contradict each other, one cannot exist if the other is true

you have two possible options:
>god knows the outcome of every possibility which removes all purpose from your slave-like existence
or
>god does not know the outcome of every possibility = not all knowing and all powerful = not a god by basic definition

so which is it Sup Forums?
does your god dictate every possibility, taking all meaning from existence & making you no different from a programmed machine?
or
does your god not possess the characteristics that would even classify it as a god = no different from humans = not worthy of our worship

Non believers may disregard this post because you've already proven you exercise enough intellectual capacity understand this.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=xKX-QtEo2fI
youtube.com/watch?v=-B8n__9CEj4
youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU
www3.nd.edu/~twang6/teaching/Handout4DescartesProofsOfGod.pdf
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Arguing about religion is futile.
You're wasting your time and nothing good will come from this thread.

Descartes said,
everything can be denied
>Observations cannot be trusted as our senses are not accurate, see optical illusions
>We cannot perfectly deduce or prove anything since humans make errors in their reasoning and it is unwise to assume that there is no error during the steps of a proof
But, if we are aware that we are thinking and existing and if we are aware that we are imperfect, it implies that there is a perfect being. And that perfect being, which we call God, has to be perfect as an imperfect being would not deceive us to believe so.

There is no god, there is a force. Spirituality is the way to go now, lads.

>it implies that there is a perfect being
I don't see how that follows

im not religious but I understand that a god could certainly exist outside of time and can observe all things at all times simultaneously. just because god is aware of all the decisions you make or will make that does not mean god had any involvement with them.

>there is a force
what do you mean by this? that's really vague

and "Spirituality" is just being a normal human being

nice trips
How would we know that something if imperfect unless there is a perfect version?

G-d knows everything you do and everything you will do. But he doesnt judge you on what will happen in the next 100 years. He judge you what you do now.

t:talmud pro

Here you go senpai. From past posts.

>You can hold that there are a literal infinite of concurrent realities, in which every possibility of every person is played out over each of them. God knows how each person's lot plays out in each reality via omniscience, but given that it's a literal infinite and that people will experience every single possible set of circumstances according to variations in their choices, it seems that - given one could be in *ANY* of those infinite realities - that you effectively have free will. If you're able to experience every single possible state of affairs in accordance with an infinite and concurrent set of realities, then even if God knows what you're going to do, you can't possibly effectively be *more* free than what you are.

how are we going to progress as a species if we don't discuss how you must deny simple logic to preserve a outdated belief system? The first book of the bible, which is directly responsible for the entire Jewish & Christian faith, directly contradicts itself & proves that they are a facade for population control & the idea that we're somehow special & immune to life & death. The thought alone is entitled & ignorant. To actually believe that everything we see was made for us & serves no other purpose is selfish is a destructive & regressive. Preserving these thoughts are holding us back from our true purpose, whatever that may be

Yes, free will is a myth, nothing is yours, not even your thoughts or feelings.

Iam expert on this, ask me anything.

you have free choice not free will.

you can choose between good and bad everything else is decided for you. gender, health, wealth, when you gonna die and how. how long you live etc.

So why is it you're choosing to type in this thread rather than do something else?

Don't know, can't know, don't care.
Religions are bullshit though.

>choice
>will

Free energy, leading some and squashing others. You can see it as a depersonalized god.

The universe is fully deterministic.
The future is unknown to us (Too complicated to calculate).
>which removes all purpose from your slave-like existence
I disagree with this premise. Something can still have purpose even if the outcome is known.

counterproposal:

God can know everything (i.e he has the power to) but choses to use this power selectively as not to contradict free will with which he has gifted us.

Just like we can receive many TV stations, yet only watch one or a few at a time, God can see as much in the future as he wants, but choses not (always) to.

A will is that which can decide (choose) between options.
So by definition if you can choose you have a will - and wills are necessarily free.

Let me explain.
God knows everything you will do however there is no singular path you will take. There are different alternative paths, you have free will to do what you wish but God already knows each alternate path you could have taken.

thats a very cute gif

this implies that alternate realities existence, which once again renders our decisions pointless. what is the point of infinite damnation or salvation if you literally have played out every scenario that could possibly happen? The punishment or reward would become irrelevant at this point

Yes all religions are bullshit, except judaism.

The text is even better, since it drops this issue by providing a complete compatibility between God's omniscience and free will.

"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.":
youtube.com/watch?v=xKX-QtEo2fI

youtube.com/watch?v=-B8n__9CEj4

youtube.com/watch?v=OxiAikEk2vU

lol. "non believers may disregard this post"? you say that as if it makes a difference whether God exists or not. determinism is a bitch. free will is an illusion. do your best and enjoy the ride, Krishna was right when he told Arjuna to just do whatever you can do to the best of your ability.

t. atheist

>if he isn't all knowing and all powerful, it's not a higher power or a god in any sense

but that's where you are wrong

i didnt read it.

>this implies that alternate realities existence
>which once again renders our decisions pointless
P2 does not follow from P1.

>what is the point of infinite damnation or salvation if you literally have played out every scenario that could possibly happen
God's Will being done obviously. You're judged for each and every sin you ever commit - and rightly so. If you would commit sin x in any world, you deserve exactly the judgement of committing sin x when you come before God.

because not everything you can imagine necessarily exists?

God is perfection.
You shouldn't try to understand God like you would another person.
There is only one God since God is all potentials realized.

God knowing everything doesn't remove free choice.

I don't see how people think this is an argument as the conclusion you arrive at doesn't logically follow.

are you basically saying that god is everything?

She is empathically all powerful but definitely not all knoeing because she doesn't know.

God by definition is not everything. People who say that trash are blind. God is everything which is perfect and good.

Everything is a simulation anyways.

God is most likely a fat alien sysadmin

>god knows the outcome of every possibility which removes all purpose from your slave-like existence

I don't agree with that point of view although it seems to be a pretty common argument, in that there is no longer "libertarian free-will." I won't be arguing from that philosophy so feel free to mention that I don't believe in their definition of it, I want to be clear about that.

Instead I've said, and is argued by some that the predestination referred to in the Bible is not by the definition that man has given but rather a different kind of philosophy.

Some of the premises are the following: God knows everything. Man must choose whether he lives by faith or dies in unbelief. God knew what decision a man would make. God cannot lie, neither can he deny himself.

Now the conclusion that people tend to make is that we actually don't have a choice, that God made us so that we would make a decision. However that would make God a liar, because he also claimed that the power of life and death is in the tongue, it is our choice to make, and his power to seal us by his promise. So this conclusion that predestination means God chose for us is incorrect; in fact, the phrase "prepared" is also brought up in reference to this. What God prepared was our rewards knowing what decision we would make, because he can see through time.

God did not dictate our trust in him, he proposed the choice to us and some of us listened because we were convinced of our need of a savior. He has his house ready for us like a father who heard from a mediator (the Holy Spirit) that his prodigal son would return. But the son returned on his own decision, believing that his father would still consider him a son.

You lack critical thinking and basic concepts of omnipotence
>god is all powerful
>e.g. He can exist outside time and space
therefore:
>he effectively creates a virtual drive for us to exist on
>wherein we have choice
It's really as simple as that
it may be that the end result is the same no matter which way we choose (over billions of years) to go, or that time doesn't exist at all in higher/lower dimensions and only where we are is quarantined. But when we find our final destination we had choices along the way and that will dictate where we sit when we reach his kingdom or the place we are to go after.

Atheism BTFO

Look
I know I'm going to wake up in the morning
Does that mean its not me waking up? Of course not.
God gave us free will knowing exactly what we'd do with it
Thats why he'll forgive us for anything as long as we truly ask him to.

A man does as he will, but he does not will what he wills.

KILL GOD
EAT HIS HEART
GAIN HIS POWERS!!!

Just throwing this out there: god is by definition all powerful and could thus resolve any contradiction or paradox.

I do exactly what I will.
And you do too, unless you're not a human, and are just some robot or other automated process. Which is possible - you could just be an animal.

Youre missing the point, what is the purpose of life if our actions are predetermined by a high power. Regardless if there's infinite possibilities, for a god to be a god it would have to know those possibilities. So it's predetermined because god designed all life since it's his creation. This would mean that we are nothing more than pieces on a game board running around for gods enjoyment. There would be no point in salvation or damnation because it was predetermined. If god created multiple realities, to be a god he would have to know the outcome of every reality, therefor you wouldve simultaneously been a saint and murderous facious dictator, what would be the point or the reward for the soul? It still wouldnt change that your manipluated piece of the puzzle whose purpose is for gods amusement.

Could exist. Doubt it. Can't say. Humans wrote all these books, though.

>>If god is real, all choices & actions must be predetermined because it knows everything
>>Therefor, it is impossible for god to coexist with free will

I'm a determinist, but I don't see the correlation between an all knowing god an determinism. Would somebody explain this to me?

They're not predetermined - you generate your own choices. God knows what they'll be, but given you're able to make *every* decision you possibly would, you can't possibly be more free than that.

Tell me - how can you possibly be more free than a circumstance in which you can make every single possible choice you ever would?
How do you get more free than that?
Are you somehow more free if God didn't know what your choice sets were? Absolutely not.

If u want logic u need to rethink what (((science))) has brought
>(modern science we deviated from real science around the time of Darwin/evolution)

Logic and critical thinking should make u question history
>but not in the predictable way u are doing
>"muh religion is a lie"

Why do they cover up ancient religions?
Why do the same people promote Atheism and NewAge/Luciferian beliefs?
Why was there a concerted effort to wipe out native cultures?
>including systematic rape and separation from family - cultural genocide
Why are we forbidden from Antarctica?
Why is there an effort to kill Christianity now?
>tfw Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple

Once u start asking those questions u will realize u don't know shit about mythic history and ancient religions/spirituality and u will then question how much of modern (((theory))) is based in fact (observation & experiment)
>hint: not much

They are not predetermined. If I offer you a $100 dollar bill and know for a fact that you will accept it, that doesn't remove or negate the other fact, being that you chose to accept the bill. You could vary well have denied the bill, but seeing as God's knowledge is perfect he would still know what choice you would make, but God did not force it nor influence it.

Knowledge does not dictate action. If I know you will open the front door to get into your house, does that mean you necessarily will?

If I know OP is a faggot, does it make it so?

...

...
NewZealand calling here.

We have secular education availible, without religious indoctrination.

When such a thing is available, a child can grow up without ever seeing people 'saying grace' or being 'baptised'.

With such a background, how can you expect a 'normal' person think that

some boring, un-special human like you

could ever be an authority

on the 'nature' of some character at the head of your faith (by admission a faith, not a reasoned position)

when you can't actually wheel out the character at the end to prove your baseless assertions, presented without evidence and defended against all evidence to the contrary?


Why wouldn't they think you a freak, trying to cast magic spells on your meal, because you're convinced you're connected to some magic higher power?

protip: they do.

edgelord mode: There is nothing about the Jesus books that makes the claims of christianity unique from any other savior cult.

There is literally nothing that puts you 'above' a bhuddist,
a Thorian, a Zeus - worshiper.

All of these dead religions have no more or less evidence that what they say is in any way justified than you.

You are as much an authority on god and what god does or doesn't want,

as I am on the pixies that live in the ether surrounding the north pole.

Stop deluding yourself and grow up, kid.

God isn't something separated from you, yet it is.

Are you referring to the idea that Man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps? Or do you mean something else?

I think its important for people to understand this. The fact that the author must add the conjunction there juxtaposes the two ideas that they are different. It's a Herculian effort for God to direct the steps of Man to lead to good, but as we know in the end it will not and instead we see the fate of the world if Man had no savior. Then at that moment God will return and stop it.

>if I know you will open the front door... does that mean you necessarily will?

Well, yes. Especially if you know it. Fellow Christian here, just wanted to point out this out. I think you meant to word it differently.

Wrong, God is everything because he is the thing behind everything.

Could an all powerful god create a universe in which it could not know the outcome of everything?

Hey fuckface lets get an answer to this

Nowhere in the bible does it say any reality existences outside of ours. Using a unproved and untested scientific theory as evidence of gods existence is laughable. You deny when science tells you evolution is most likely true, but pick and choose the parts that benefit you beliefs? Thats not how it works. Either all of science is false or none of it is. Choose one.

Wrong. God is ultimately perfect and good. He is not evil, nor is he the devil. He cannot sin, and in fact he despises it and will ultimately destroy it for good. This is the reason he cast out Adam and Eve.

Indiabro, we're too cool for this board.
Why do we stay?

Oh yeah, watching americans wreck themselves and each other, and then, limbs mangled and philosophy bleeding, they'll look at other countrys and, wheezing with laughter, declare themselves better than us.

America, you so crazy.
I am curious how common "Religions are bullshit" is as a sentiment over there in indialand tho.
Its a big place, which parts do you know?

God banned himself from knowing anything by introducing quantum randomness.
Randomness by definition cannot be known.

>Christianity

No. Who is more powerful, a man with 10,000 units of power who could chose to lose it, or a man with 10,000 units of power who could never lose it? Choice does not equal power. Lack of knowledge doesn't equal power either. If you are perfect and all knowing by definition you could not make a universe where you didn't know the outcome, this doesn't take from God's power. And if God could, he wouldn't be all knowing and all powerful.

The problem you have is that you think your purpose in life is centered on yourself. This is because of your slavery to sin. The purpose of ALL is the glorification of God. You exist to glorify God, as do I, and every other person. There is no purpose period.

Remember, God is Sovereign. How can you, a mere human, exert a will against the will of the Sovereign eternal God? This is pride, it is arrogance.

Not an argument

Maybe he knows everything but drinks to try to forget.
All that water turning to wine miracle stuff in the bible is a cry for help.
MFW God is a bored, depressed alcoholic.

www3.nd.edu/~twang6/teaching/Handout4DescartesProofsOfGod.pdf

I think the question is flawed.
>because not everything you can imagine necessarily exists
I mean it does, in our imagination. Which is good enough for god, since he is not a physical being afaik.

I'm not an authority on God, I was quoting God's own words and interpreting them from the normal reading. You not understanding that the Bible is its own authority based on its message and the fulfillment of its prophecies is not unsurprising. Some people will just never believe it.

I didn't grow up religious, I had secular education also and was an atheist, and became a Christian when I was 24.

So I'll tell you as it was said to the Jews, his word went in to all the earth and to the ends of the world. And did they not understand it?

Here is where the faith is different from every other ideology, how it is above the Buddhist who believes he can escape natural fate by his own power, or the Thorian who believes he can receive mercy from his God by being a better person.

The believer in Christ makes a choice to believe that he is powerless to save himself because he's fallen. That aspect of human nature should be clear, we are doomed, and there is invention that will stop it, and there is not trick that can impress an almighty God if he exists. Therefore we can only trust that his word is true because it is the only hope that man has, everything else is a vain attempt and a lie.

>Genesis 1:28
>And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
no purpose.. try harder

>The concept of God is the same in all religions

God is ultimate absolute reality and it's the same thing as your soul.

Knowing the outcome isn't the same as intentionally determining the outcome in advance, you autist. The whole point of free will is to see if we independently choose to worship God or not. Because he knows what we'll choose in no way means he intentionally forced those decisions.

>all religions are right

Try harder.

>if he isn't all knowing and all powerful, it's not a higher power or a god in any sense

this premise is wrong. can god do something that is logically impossible? like, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? can he make a square circle? can he stop being god?

No. So neither can he give free will and at the same time withhold it. Free will is real, and the fact that God limits his own ability by allowing us to have it does not make him any less God.

I was implying the complete opposite thing because i replied

>Christianity

where the concept of God is totally off.

>commandments are purposes.

The command was to be fruitful and multiply. The purpose was the glorification of God. The purpose of salvation was the glorification of God. The purpose of the law was the glorification of God.

A choice isnt a choice if its known in advance. You cant use an unproved scientific theory to justify gods existence. No where in the bible does it says multiple realities exist or that god exists out of space and time. Either the bible is the word of god or it isnt. If some parts of the bible are true and others are false, then it wasnt written by any god. Scientific theory does not entertain the idea of a god, so using certain parts to justify your beliefs is illogical. Thats like me using the bible to prove a scientific theory. How can the same science used to directly contradict the bibles teachings be used to prove god is real? The same science that proved the earth isnt a couple thousand years old, put us on the moon, make cellphones a reality, is the same science youre using to tell me that alternate realties exist so therefor god. Its mental gymnastics and completely illogical

...

According to you.

God necessarily exists outside of space and time. Are you stupid?

A man with 10,000 units of power + the ability to take away that power is more powerful than the latter. Your argument is wrong.

Ameribro....

.. you're alright. Not because I think anything you said has any merit,
because I don't, for a second.

...its not compelling.

You can tell me that your faith is 'different', but guess what... thats what they said too.

All you did was describe some sort of different outlook, where you emasculate yourself before an imaginary alpha.

Thats JUST like the other religions. You must have heard that, right? I won't reply to you more, because thats all I needed to say, and I don't want to be in an 'argument' thread. If you understood what I wrote there, thats enough.

...
but
you're alright.
Mostly because you can at least attempt to justify your position, and have a reply ready.

In other words, I don't care that you're oblivious to the non-uniqueness of your position, and find it dubious that you could convert to a religion without it being endemic to your society, and thus just a bizzarre cultural norm that you became accustomed to,

I say you're alright because you don't seem to be a dick about it, and you accept that your odd tradition is a choice.

Why would anyone choose to believe in magic crackers? I don't really care to know.

Yes

>A choice isn't a choice if it's known in advance

Doesn't follow at all. It's still a choice, God knowing what choice you will make doesn't detract from the fact you still made a choice.

How is he more powerful? Choices don't equal power. The man who's power cannot be compromised is more powerful because he could never lose his power.

Great and according to me you're wrong, wow what a great debate we really made some progress.

What is thinking? Thinking means processing some information in order to get some new information. So you know something at point A you process that information in whichever manner and you reach some conclusion which is some new information. Now you're at point B. The travel from A ---> B is what thinking is.

Now imagine knowing all there is to know. All that ever was and all that ever will be. Is any travel possible at that point? You're at the same time at the point A, B, C and all the way to the point Z. You already are in all those places at the same time. Travel between them not only doesn't make sense but it's literally impossible.

So God therefore can't think. Now think(because you can HA!) of the implications of that. Thinking is necessary for any change. Meaning that an all knowing god because he is incapable of thinking could never change. He would always be the same, his decisions automated. All judgment and forgiveness? Just automated sensory responses with no conscious thought behind them. God is like a python script you can write in 5 mins, that is aware of everything there is, will never change and here's the best part: it can't ever be self aware.

Self awareness is the ability to discern yourself from your environment. To know that you are you and not that chair or that table. But if you're all knowing, non-thinking and all-present, how could you ever be self-aware?
First off you can't think. Things that can't think can't be self-aware. Second everything that is, is you and you know it all. How could you possibly see yourself? For God to be self aware he would need an environment bigger than him in which there are things different from him.

Samson was destined to free the Israelites and he failed.

God gives us a destiny, but it is our choice to accept/fulfill it or trade it for a meal of meat. Why would Lucifer tempt Christ if he knew it was impossible for Christ to fall? Lucifer obviously knows more about free will than OP or any of his shitposter friends.

>god knows the outcome of every possibility which removes all purpose from your slave-like existence
>god does not know the outcome of every possibility = not all knowing and all powerful = not a god by basic definition
>so which is it Sup Forums?

Neither, fedora-kun. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Compatibilism master race reporting in.

I also believe that aborted/miscarried children most likely weren't given souls, but abortion is still abominable.

This is the internet I don't have the stamina for a spiritual debate. Take a look at this if you ever have the time

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

>implying we have free will
Prove it, faggot.

Yep and take a look at the original manuscripts of the Bible in Hebrew and Greek when you get the chance

Do you make your own choices? Yes or no?

How retarded are you? Nowhere in the bible does it state that. Your brain is literally creating unproven circumstances that preserve your beliefs. If its not in the bible, you cannot claim it to be fact because its not gods word.

Would you mind quoting where I denied evolution?

This. Like I referred to earlier in the thread:
>If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

In the case of the quote, God cannot break a promise, it's literally impossible. So just because we are unfaithful doesn't mean he won't be also if he made a promise to us.

This is the answer to these kinds of thoughtless questions people tend to bring up. If you bring up something that is denying who God is, then it's just the wrong question. You go back to what his nature dictates.

Is a King of a country more powerful if he can quit, or not? The king who can't quit is more like a slave.

That'd be like me saying "read the Vedas and the Upanishads"

>hurr free will means god isn't real.

I have a book. I love the book and have read it many time.

Even though I know what happens at the end, it doesn't meant that while reading it something different will happen. It has already been written.

Fedorable faggots.

Where is this stated in the bible? Youre creating scenerios to preserve you ideals, aka mental gymnastics. Once again, illogical and a defence mechanism of the brain