Are you supposed to take this horribly written Saturday morning cartoon villain seriously?

Are you supposed to take this horribly written Saturday morning cartoon villain seriously?

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You're supposed to actually read far enough to see why he's a crazy old coot.

You're not supposed to take Fate series seriously

In his small stint, he was portrayed far more realistically than the other characters. First, his motivations are rooted in achieving a wish he has held for several centuries: to achieve the Third Magic. To reach that end, he has forced himself to become basically immortal; thus, his delusions make far more sense than Kirei’s “Lolyuetsu” and Gil’s “Lol big ego.” He has essentially sacrificed his humanity to become a magus devoted to a single lifetime goal, so simply, he embodies the backwards nature of magi Nasu has been trying to show us throughout his works. Sure, what he did to Sakura was heinous, but most Nasuverse characters in general have done heinous things, and they are still appreciated and loved. Plus, as a villain, you would expect him to do such things. So why not Zouken? He is vastly underrated by the masses.

Some say Kirei is so well-written and thus the best villain, but I find it quite the contrary. Most of Kirei’s character was written to be a foil to Shirou, and thus an ultimate source for his development throughout the story of FSN. When you really think about it though, his motivations make absolute sense. He is just a glorified “evil for the sake of evil,” and before some try to say that his character is much more complex than that, I will tell you right now that that it isn't. Hell, unlike Kirei, Zouken actually went through development. By the end of the route, as he was dying, he bitterly regretted his actions and recalled what he had really wanted upon seeing Illya in her Dress of Heaven. It really showed how good intentions could be corrupted over time, as he kept his relentless pursuit of the power of the Grail System. As for Gil, there is literally no argument. He is just an arrogant prick who does what he wants, when he wants with absolutely no real motivation. Not much depth there, and I acknowledge that most of his fans mainly like him as a guilty pleasure.

Tl;dr? Zouken is the best character in FSN.

LITERALLY

P O R N
O
R
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He´s an old man. Not even a fat old man, so useless for doujins even.
Fate is a fucking eroge, covered with chuuni cringe. So no.

...

I'm about 6 hours into the Fate VN and it's pretty fun.

I only played shit like Rondo Duo or other random shit before so this is pretty good as an introduction to VNs.

Thinking about getting Higurashi on Steam, but only if there's a way to add the PS2 sprites to the game, the old ones and the new ones are both shit.

Where should VNs be discussed btw? Sup Forums or Sup Forums?

>I-I can not say anything against the truth
Go back to lelddit with your stolen secure blanket memes.

>Am I fitting yet?

>long thought out explanation on why Zouken is a good character
>HES USELESS FOR DOUJINS
Fuck. off.

It's time to stop.

>Liking the most boring first act
Well if it´s your first of course it is fun. We all loved Naruto, Death Note and what not. But after some year of the same bs, you get tired of it.

Anyway, the sex is bad, so don´t expect to fap. /jp/ for VNs, but Fate is old and stale, they mostly discuss new stuff.

Read more, play more, watch more.

...

Zouken is actually sort of a neat character, in that he's basically a living example of how clinging to a goal beyond all reason can completely destroy you, both figuratively and literally in Zouken's case. He has been chasing the Holy Grail for so long that he completely forgot why he wanted in the first place; he actually ends up deciding it had to be for the selfish reason of repairing his soul, because he's so far gone he can't even remember he used to care about other people.

It's an interesting parallel to HF Shirou, who rapidly bleeds through all his memories trying to protect the people he cares about. And for both of them, in the end remembering the person they loved was all it took for everything to come back.

Incidentally, F/GO has pretty much been "you know that Zouken's actually pretty awesome, right?" Dude was a fucking monster in his youth. Well, okay, he was a monster in his old age too but a literal one, not a figurative one.

You read Fate for the intricate plot and characterizations, not the porn scenes. Also Naruto really? If you're going to make an analogy, it's the Eva of VNs.

Is the truth you little fatefaggot. The guy is unattractive. And that is the only reason he is not on anyone´s fav list. Fucking Gil is killing lolis, but he looks good while doing it. Is not that hard to see why OP is asking a dumb question. Nobody would like Saber if she was a old hag with saggy tits.

Don´t take joke OP so serious champ.

Speak for yourself retard

Before the endless body surfing eroded everything about him away, Zouken was crazy overpowered. Like, he was the guy who came up with the Command Seal system in the first place, and he helped draft the Holy Grail War along with Zelretch and Justeaze.

Fast forward to modern day and the most you can say about him now is that he's real hard to kill.

Oh stop it. Is a shounen battle series with cringe mana sex. And read the post, Fate has been the first VN for a lot of people. Naruto was the first anime for a lot of people (Dragon Quest anime for me), chill. Not implying it is Naruto. Don´t be so insecure.

...

>Taking Fate seriously at all
I only enjoy game iteration of Fate. CC EXTRA was great, and I look forward to the Dynasty one. Shame the mobile one is just a gacha slot machine.

>mfw we steal reddit pics.

Zouken's big issue is that all of the important parts of his characterization are dumped on you in one scene near the very end. It's obvious how he's supposed to parallel HF Shirou, but you really don't care that much since at this point you're knee deep in the HF finale and want to see Shirou and Kotomine being the shit out of each other.

It's sort of a similar problem as Sakura, actually.

Your 7 layers of denial? Fate is entry level shit just like Naruto

he looked like Berserker crossed with Lancer

>whole point of the VN is to deconstruct a typical shounen mindset of "saving everyone" while exploring different philosophies
>it's a shounen battle series
Yeah ok buddy don't respond to me until you read the thing.

>he takes nasu stories seriously

What's wrong with his head?

Whatever you say patrician user, now go post keit-ai in some other thread to show them how much you fit here

>Treating F/SN as if it's actually decent literature.
Yeah, no.

>Kirei is evil for the sake of evil
Motherfucker did you read the VN?

>deconstruct shounen
>the very first popular western shounen VN
>older than fairy tail manga
>Self insert MC
>Turn self insert to cool edge
>Even a real edge version of him
>Thinks all shounen are about saving everyone
You are simply putting Fate on a pedestal while ridiculing other shounen series. Don´t be cancer.

F/SN seeks out to tackle man's quest for heroism and captures it through a series of methods including humanistic self-actualization and psychodynamic perspectives across multiple universes. Both of which are consistent themes throughout the whole novel.

It's literature. Get over it

>Liking EXTRA

Is entry level for vn so for people already into anime and stuff related, naruto is entry level for normalfags.

He isn't even a villain you should read the VN.

>Self insert MC
Stop reading there

>>Self insert MC
Stopped reading there.

>Fatefaggots thinking Fate is high-tier /lit/ material
Every damn time. Every damn time. The threads would have been so much more fun if we could talk about waifus and what legendary heroes we want. This is why I usually only post in FGO general. Fate outside of that is pure cancer.

I like it because it's slow paced and I feel good playing it, also I can make choices and get bad ends(I assume I can?) like in Corpse Party, that is pretty neat.

I've been watching and reading dark shit for the past few weeks(reading Berserk right now) so this VN is a nice change of pace.

I got the uncensored version but I don't expect to fap, only got it cause I don't wanna play anything censored.

After playing this I'll probably play Higurashi, Umineko, and then Rance and the one where the chick breaks the 4th wall if that has been translated.

>Self insert MC
What the fuck am I reading

Shitty literature and a great plot wasted by a mediocre author.

>Cancer thinking he isn't cancer
Every time. If you want to circlejerk waifus fuck off elsewhere, FSN is the about themes of heroism and idealism.

>Eroge can't be literature

Why are you pretending Fate is not normalfag entry series? My niece and his friend have watched it. And they mostly watch SAO, Bleach, HxH and the usual entry shows.

>no liking best fate

It is an intensely mediocre story at best that brings up a lot of topics but doesn't adequately explore them particularly well beyond characters monologuing at you on what they think about it.

F/SN was one of the first things Nasu wrote. It is pretty impressive considering that, and I suppose it's better than Tsukihime, but it's not good by a long shot. The best thing you can say about it is that uses its format well, and even then that ends up screwing over all attempts at adapting it.

>stories with sex can't be good literature

>watched
The fanbase for the most part accepts that the anime adaptations are shit. Read the VN.

>My niece and his friend have WATCHED it
>kindergarten reading comprehension

Fate is shit. The only good thing out of this shit franchise is Fate/Zero. Now get out of here, there's nothing to see.

No denying the premise is 10/10 setup for cool fights. Is a shame Nasu is such a hack. Quite interesting how Uro loaned the Fate franchise and outdid Nasu with Zero. But it was way too edgy to be taken seriously, still, better than Nasu.

This strawman. If you think people are saying its bad writing because of the sex (which feels like it was written by a virgin), then it's no surprise you're retarded enough to defend it as good.

>Baiting this hard
Not even insane fans honestly believes that. But nice try, 7/10. Have a (You).

>only 3-5 years until porkslope remake and the inevitable anime finally take the shitposting spotlight off of Fate/Gay Nigger

That's literally what he said though

>Literally
Not even implied. Calm down, remove your hostility and tackle the post with clarity.

List of things FSN "adequately" explores:

The essential nature of heroic ideals, and an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path. The idea of selfish actions for selfless reasons. A dilemma between logic and emotion (Rin's conflict). The idea of facades and how we hide ourselves within society. Consequentialism and regret; nihilism (Saber's conflict). Existence and individuality (Shirou's "rebirth" following his death in the fire). The meaning of choice. Contrasting of several different philosophies (Pragmatism, Altruism, Idealism, Utilitarianism, etc). Perceptions of people (very overt with the way Shirou perceives his father vs everyone else). Cultural expectations of good and evil (Shirou/Kirei). Consent and fate (Medea and EMIYA). Societal values and morality.

You didn't refute the post your responded to in any way, but posted a screencap from one of the sex scenes, implying that it's somehow bad because of them.

>RWBY
Why the fuck are you associating best mask with that shit?

I kind of feel sorry for Nasu in that everyone here judges him on something he wrote like 12 years ago based off a story draft he made in high school. If you went up to Nasu and told him to his face that you think Fate is overexposed trash, he would probably shrug and agree because seriously, it was one of his first efforts.

Then again I guess it doesn't help that everybody only talks about Tsukihime and Fate, and not his more modern stuff like Witch on the Holy Night or DDD.

Because he has to try THAT hard to bait people?

>Is HxH
Well I guess HxH is the masterpiece of the century. Even Toriko can be seen has deep if you want to.

If you think bringing up a topic is adequately exploring it, then you're too far gone to be seriously reasoned with.

Well I guess it's not a bad thing to really like something.

Archer is a hack character, he does true magic-like shit with magecraft and only demigods like lancer can actually stop him.

Three Crane Wing is the most broken shit in the whole franchise, if he throws K&B and they can either be broken phantasms, or the real ones used for comboing, he can trick any enemy like this.

spam 10k broken phantasms in a few minutes? whole cities destroyed in less than 2 days

damn can he even destroy an entire country in 1 week for fucks sakes

>I feel sorry for Nasu for writing one of the biggest and most famous eroge in story because Sup Forums judges him

PORN WITH A PLOT

I wish I could talk about those, but the lack of translation for Type-Monn stuff is impressive. That and heroes going at it is so entertaining

What the fuck are you talking about?

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>trying this hard
Most of those can be seen in ALL fiction, even in shitty literature for children. The difference is that, due to its educational character, literature for children ACTUALLY tackles said themes instead of just bringing them up without any confrontation nor closure. You are reading WAY too much into this shitty VN.

Nasu knows Night, UBW and HF are shit. That´s why he distanced himself from it for a while to work on his other works. The problem is autistic manchildren are clinging onto it as his magnus opus.

Yeah, public perception of Nasu among EOPs is over a decade old. In the Japanese speaking community he is highly respected as a creator for stuff like CCC, Mahoyo, DDD, ect.

You can't deny the charm of his older stuff, though. FSN has plenty of depth despite its reputation being ruined by memes, and Tsukihime is engaging once you get past how dated it can be.

Maybe this

the writing is shitty, but that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable

Sorry, but narrative-oriented arts will be shitty if the narration is bad.

That's not my hiatus x hiatus

Holy fuck. There are furry sex fan fiction that brings up more deep themes if you really tried. Taking a theme, bringing up the problems, solving it and getting a good morale out of it is different from mentioning a dyke that have mommy issues because she was raped by the rabbid and now suffer from PTSD because the guilt of fucking dogs is making her hate cats.

Your shit is pasta worthy though.

If I were to list things it simply brought up we would be here all day. Everything in that post was at LEAST adequately explored, and I even underlined which character arcs contained those themes if you need a refresher.

>instead of just bringing them up without any confrontation nor closure

Elaborate with few examples in the VN. Because most of what mentioned had closure.

>My nice and his friend have watched it
>have watched it
>watched
>W A T C H E D
>niece
>his
>W
>A
>T
>C
>H
>E
>D

Fate is the greatest written fiction to ever grace us filthy white pigs. I have only read Fate and seen Fate, but it is without any doubt the very best of the best. My bible, my life.

>Taking a theme, bringing up the problems, solving it and getting a good morale out of it
That's exactly what it does. Jesus fuck, read the VN.

Sorry, it got replaced. Now you will have your shitty harem and you will like it

There's nothing Saturday cartoon villain about him. If you want something close to a Saturday cartoon villain in the Fate series, go look at the Fate/Zero Caster.

>not Gil

This reminds me of that screencap of someone arguing Naruto was deeper than classic literature, but I can't be bothered to search for it in my folder.

He is too fabulous

>Fatefags:
articulate, well reasoned arguments detailing the themes of the visual novel and why they make for a rewarding experience, directly pointing to the character arcs to round out their points.

>anti-fatefags:
HURRDURR CHUUNI SHOUNEN SELF NARUTO INSRT SHIT WRITING NASU IS A HACK

Every time.

Heaven's feel villains are straight out of a cartoon, yes
Sakura is literally, LITERALLY Coldsteel the hedgehog if it was a cute anime girl

Why's the sound quality so shit in F/SN? The dialogue is hurting my ears.

Fairy Tail brings up the themes of social understanding, tackles perception of people and racism (the Oni Island arc), social relationships (choosing your friends over your family), consequentialism and regret (Gray and Lyon's common story about Deliora, Erza's story with the Tower), the confrontation of several views of the world (Altruism via the Guild, Darwinism with Phantom Lord, how people can value friendship more than their own lives)

Kirei is one of the best villains I've seen, or at least one of the most unique. He redeems Sakura.

What version are you playing?

Yeah, not saying Fate is bad, I also liked Kirei a lot. It's just that Heaven's Feel is pretty trash for what it tried to do.

The old Fuwanovel version that I downloaded years ago.

Early Naruto does have some depth to it though. There's a reason the series received so much praise when it first came out. It literally rode off of the success of the chunin exam for its entire run.

Fatefags have to compensate for liking a powerlevel waifu simulator by acting super "mature" in an attempt to get people to take them seriously.

It's funny that you can have 200+ posts threads without a single valid, logic and critical argument from shitposters against this series. It's just strawmen and Ad hominem left and right.

And somehow not shitting on Fate for the dumbest of reasons is an equivalent to consider it "the greatest piece of literature ever conceived", go figure.

I wouldn't call it trash but it's my least favorite route.

sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=704566

I'm still waiting for my train to come in, so let's take a look at the first thing you brought up.

>The essential nature of heroic ideals, and an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path

What exactly is a "heroic ideal" here? I assume you're talking about Shirou wanting to be a hero, but what the fuck /is/ a hero?

Well you won't find out in F/SN, because all of the exposition you get regarding heroes is 99% Shirou's extremely personal definition of what a hero is. And in his case, it's being a fucking superhero, not a hero. That's why he even ends up with the silly-ass "to be a hero, someone has to be in danger!!!" and "if I save one person, I must let others die!!!" moral conundrums that western comic books have done to fucking death, because he's explicitly trying to be a comic book superhero. So already the scope has been limited extensively to the point that the most you could say Fate talks about "heroic ideals" is bringing up that there are heroes and I guess it's a good thing to be one?

Moving on, why's it essential for there to be heroic ideals? I guess you could argue that as long as there are heroes, there will be hope, or maybe that evil only wins if good people do nothing or oh wait F/SN doesn't talk about why it's important for there to be heroes, it just has Shirou say he wants to be a hero because hero. Hero. HERO!

What's left? Oh right, "an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path". Are you just fucking joking now? Shirou wants to be a hero because of his backstory. That 's it. And again, a comic book superhero at that. F/SN spends more time talking about how Shirou's backstory fundamentally broke something in him than how it made him want to be a hero.

I could do this for every other point you bring up, but there's be no point since you'd just cover your ears and scream about how I JUST DON'T GET IT THIS STUFF IS LEGIT.

Is your image supposed to support your argument or something? The fanservice antics in Hollow Ataraxia are all part of its greater message, with the ending being pretty goddamn spectacular.