Side Characters in Koe no Katachi

So I fell asleep last night. Woke up, went to my old thread, and found this at the end.

>Mashiba, Kawai, and Ueno are all irredeemable pieces of shit, not to mention that the writing in this series was pretty atrocious past the very beginning. It all went to shit when it stopped being about Ishida and Shouko. Most of the other characters were a mistake. I feel like the sole purpose of all females in this series was just to beat the shit out of Shouko for no reason, including Shouko herself.

I can see where dislike for Kawai and especially Ueno come from, but what the fuck did Mashiba do wrong? Nigger was literally the blandest fucker ever and only seemed to be present because he liked Kawai (or vice-versa). The only reason he stuck out were because his eyes are creepy as shit. Not gonna lie, I was expecting him to be some villainous character just because of how fucking weird his eyes were.

But onto some other meat. Should the movie have only focused on Ishida and Shouko? Would it have been natural for those two to be the only characters present the whole time?

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>Should the movie have only focused on Ishida and Shouko?
It did only focus on Ishida and Shouko. Hell, I'd go even farther and say it only focused on Ishida. The movie opens up to kid Ishida walking around like he owns the world with My Generation playing in the background and ends with Ishida opening up to the world and forgiving himself.

>Should the movie have only focused on Ishida and Shouko?
But it did.

From what I read, some people have a lot of issues with the side characters generally existing (and some even arguing that Shoko is basically a side character past the oneshot and/or her reintroduction after growing up). Are they really so distracting? They seemed like a natural consequence of Ishida and Shoko getting more "out there" and into the world.

I never thought they were distracting. Ishida's and Shouko's interactions with them brought out key parts of Ishida's and Shouko's development.
For example, Ishida's interaction with Nagatsuka shows how Ishida wants friends, but is too timid to interact with others. That's how you know that the X's aren't just Ishida being edgy and hating people in general but rather Ishida is a more gentle yet neurotic person.
Also, Ishida's interactions with Mashiba shows how much he wants to bury his past and how he is refusing to outright confront it (like he needs to).

>some even arguing that Shoko is basically a side character past the oneshot and/or her reintroduction after growing up
Do people actually think this? I'm pretty sure I'd remember reading something that retarded.

Not him, but that's actually pretty clarifying. I'd hated the side characters myself, but this gives them a new "lease on life", so to speak.

The problem was Yamada, or whoever had final say was too scared to make an adaptation instead of an animated summary - they aren't the same thing. While no single side character took up too much time - all of them cumulatively hindered a more cognizant story from being told. Also, there were more supporting characters than you even see in a 12 episode series (with that amount of relative exposure), which is about four and a half, 4.5 hours worth of screen time. The movie was less than half that. Don't forget the mothers, too, although they were necessary. The "circle of friends" was huge for an anime. It should have been a 12 episode series if they wanted to really shine.
If Yamada insisted on making the movie - she should have cut at least 3 of the friends. Red head, (who?) and combine Sahara and Kawai if need be. Possibly combine other characters to fill in the requisite story beats. I suspect there was as much character clutter as there was because marketing wanted wallpaper porn to give the movie a more hype/epic feel to it.

Even more would have had to have been changed condensed to really execute a great story - the story was strongest when Ishida and Yuzuru were being developed by their interaction with each other. I cared more about how Yuzuru would feel about her sister's suicide attempt than I cared about the attempt itself. If you look past the afterglow of "muh feels" from watching it - it's a disjointed mess wit all sorts of problems. The animation was absolutely gorgeous though.

Just a nitpick, but wouldn't it have been better to combine Kawai and Ueno, if anybody? I'm under the impression that OP hasn't read the manga, which might make it easy to overlook the fact that Kawai is actually supposed to be an incredibly unsympathetic, borderline villainous character. Then we all know about fucked in the head Ueno is. Feels as though that Kawai + Ueno would have been a better merge. Sahara's worst "crime" was running away, and she clearly feels guilty about it.

I agree that Mashiba, as far as being a character in the movie, pretty much served no purpose due to having his bully-hater trait and backstory removed, so I wouldn't mind seeing him get cut.

Your comment in the last paragraph inclines me to think that you view Yuzuru as a "side character who was done well", as well as that you don't think Shoko was handled well. Am I correct?

>Your comment in the last paragraph inclines me to think that you view Yuzuru as a "side character who was done well", as well as that you don't think Shoko was handled well. Am I correct?
Well relative to the movie and how all the other characters were handled. I'm coming at this more from an accusation against Yamada's ability to distill a story down to its essence then build it back up within the time constraint - unless she wasn't allowed to by outside forces. If it was out of her hands and she had to include everyone that was included - I don't see how she could have done a better job honestly - There was very little obvious fat to the feature. Also, don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the movie - but I also like going back and being a film critic when analyzing why something was so good or bad.

The pairing/combinations I made were just an example - it was off the top of my head. This is where it gets tough and why I think it should have been more of an interpretive adaptation than it ended up being (even though a ton of it was cut, context even - like the hospital time skip). What I don't think we will find out that I wish to know was how much Yamada had her hands tied - If her next film isn't a marketing driven adaptation - perhaps an original story, we might be able to reverse engineer what her constraints were with Koe no Katachi.

I also have more technical criticisms of Koe no Katachi- but they aren't related to what's discussed in this thread (chiefly her pacing of shots as well as one shot segment where she could have done better, the balcony/firework scene).

That post was mine.

Yeah, I mean Mashiba was just a bland asshole in the movie. He's friends with Ishida for like a week, he sees him clearly at one of his weakest moments, and when Ishida calls him an outsider as a spur of the moment thing, even after saying that he was Ishida's friend, Mashiba just goes "sticks and stones break my bones but words do too because I'm a bitch lol we're not friends anymore." Not to mention, he treats Ishida like he's some dishonest asshole while he says nothing mean to Kawai at all who is obviously a dishonest piece of shit. He was a hypocritical annoying asshole in the movie who, on top of it all, lacked any real emotions and probably knew he was an asshole and didn't even care. Plus his face pisses me off, and yes, his eyes are infuriating.

And I haven't even got into how big of a piece of shit he is in the manga. Jesus Christ. The people in these threads, they say "read the manga." The manga's fucking terrible. It's like all the pointless shitfests of the movie magnified five times. The movie was actually pretty good since it was more focused on Ishida and Shouko. The manga has a great premise and could have been really good, but it just fucked up so badly. The movie takes a lot of the fuck ups out, and isn't great, but it's at least better than the manga.

Addendum because I gave it more thought. I paired Sahara with Kawai for Sahara to take up all of Kawai's "roles" in the film post middle school. You are correct, combing Kawai with Ueno would make more sense - but they fill the same role (ish) during middle school - but you need Ueno to be the antagonist post MS/ in HS. Kawai was just background noise. I might have been more correct to say just cut her. Maybe combine Sahara and the red head guy and make Sahara an outspoke anti-bully in the 3rd act.

Yeah, that actually fits better. -even though her being a neutral but sympathetic character in the film I think is more appropriate for her character. It's all about what to save and what to cut - and what to combine into a representative cumulative entity. The movie took on a lot in what it needed to convey with the format and time frame it had.

So, uh, let me get this straight. He somehow manages to be worse than bland and pointless in the manga?
Speaking as someone who hasn't read it (and as the OP), I'd like some clarifications as to why the manga was bad.

>Not him, but that's actually pretty clarifying. I'd hated the side characters myself, but this gives them a new "lease on life", so to speak.
Its actually what I love about Yamada. She brings her characters out through interactions, both other people and the world. So even less developed characters like Kawai or Mashiba ultimately feel really important yet avoid feeling like complete plot devices.

I think Mochizou from Tamako is another great example.

I see. You're clearly experienced with this. I hadn't considered some of those points before, but I like how you're making me consider them.

As far as the movie is concerned, I also agree that merging a bit of Mashiba into Sahara would have been good. The non-creepy bits, anyway. Becoming more active against bullies, but also being herself would've cohered just fine. Problem is that movie!Mashiba straight up doesn't have a point in existing, and was more or less just a tip of the hat to the manga.

And was that criticism of the suicide attempt also yours? It's interesting. I really liked that scene myself, but when you bring up what could've been done, I feel both a little dissatisfied and intrigued.

>too scared to make an adaptation instead of an animated summary
Maybe he wasn't scared but simply knew that the whole nonsense about making a movie and so on was shit anyway. Nothing wrong with a movie not being a 1:1 adaptation of the source material in general.

The point of Sahara was to validate Ishida's fears. After Sahara admits she is a complete coward, he feels a lot less isolated and actually starts to relax around the group and have a blast.
However Mashiba was the one who reminded, albeit indirectly, Ishida that he can't just bury his own past, which prompts his triade of attempting to sacrifice his own happiness for Shouko's (which drove her into a corner and attempting suicide).

Okay, I'll just spoil it for you if you're that curious:

He's a violent person. There's a scene where there are some kids being mildly mean to another kid (grade schoolers) and he just goes up and screams at them like he knows them. There's another scene where he's talking to Ishida's old grade school teacher, and his old teacher is being a dick and trying to make Mashiba angry at Ishida, so Mashiba pours water on the teacher and leaves. Then to top it all off, when Kawai cries and tells him about the stupid shit he did when he was a kid, Mashiba goes and gets pissed at him as if what Ishida did to Shouko was fucking yesterday. You know the bridge scene in the movie where everyone was got pissed at Ishida and so he called them all out on their bullshit? In the manga, after Ishida calls Mashiba an outsider, Ishida goes, "you said you wanted to punch me, right? Go ahead and do it." So Mashiba walks up and sock in in the face and leaves. Because he got called an outsider and because Kawai snitched on Ishida. And that eyebrow fuck doesn't feel an ounce of guilt about any of that stuff. He says sorry about everything later on, but you can tell he doesn't really give a shit. He's not anyone's friend. He lacks any real feelings. He's just as big of a sociopath as Kawai.

>he
Also, what on Earth do you mean, "whole nonsense about making a movie and so on was shit"?

Hold the fuck up. Are you saying that Shoko's attempted suicide was Shoya's fault?

...

>Do people actually think this? I'm pretty sure I'd remember reading something that retarded.
"Retarded"? I'm a little late to the party, but no, it's not retarded at all. Cute as she is, Shoko is pretty much a glorified plot device. Her "character" almost entirely lacks substance, and she's really just there to propel Ishida's growth. She has almost no character beyond "tortured sack of moe that Ishida bullied when he was a kid", and she pretty much never develops.

Oh and I forgot to include that the author's only given reason for Mashiba being a dick is because "lol I was bullied about my eyebrows as a kid I know that Shouko's deaf and gets the shit beat out of her on a regular basis even today, and that Ishida has been consistently bullied every day from grade school to middle school, but muh eyebrows my backstory is sadder I swear!"

omfg
That edit almost looks like the real deal.

Not his fault, per say. It was a lot of factors. She thinks she is a burden on everyone around her. That's why (I'm assuming, but it may just be my own projection) she is so passive. She tries to make her own presence as small as possible as to not incur a burden on others. The whole thing with Ishida was just the breaking point. She saw him break down in front of the entire group because his past was brought up again, then he looks up at her and smiles and says, "Want to do something together this summer?" clearly indicating how much this whole ordeal puts a burden onto Ishida. Shouko, being at the center of this whole thing, blames herself for it all. Even without doing at all, she believes she is a huge burden on the people around her.

>He says sorry about everything later on, but you can tell he doesn't really give a shit.
Wait, do people think this? It's been a while since I last read it, but I felt as though he regretted it.
Also, for what it's worth, of all the people who got criticized about the shit movie, he seemed to be the only one who felt guilty about it going bad and seemed to blame himself.

>Problem is that movie!Mashiba straight up doesn't have a point in existing, and was more or less just a tip of the hat to the manga
Not that user. Mashiba is the primary motivation for Kawai's actions, without him and his interest in Ishida I don't see her hanging out with the group. His conversation with Ishida is what triggers the bridge scene and the group break up. I guess you could change that into Sahara confronting Ishida, but that would go against her character. Him being an outsider is kinda his deal, he is the first character to approach Ishida without knowing him previously, or being helped by Ishida in some way. Without his manga characterisation he comes across as a good guy wanting to be friends with other lonely misfits in his class. I felt he was there to make a point that Ishida is isolated because of his attitude towards himself and others, not because of other people. Along with some other details, like his classmates calling out to Ishida, while he doesn't even see them, he serves to show that people outside of his circle would care for him if he started opening up.

She blamed herself for Shouya's outburst on the bridge and his sad, lonely state afterwards, even though that was largely his own fault.

Like said, Shouko thinks anything she's involved with that goes poorly is her fault because everyone has to accommodate her.

Ah, I see. "Breaking point" was how I saw it myself.

>almost entirely lacks substance
...You can't be serious. Does anyone else in this thread actually think this? Can somebody explain why?

The way I see it, covers a lot of why she doesn't SEEM to do much - but then, we also see a lot of why that's the case. She's intentionally withdrawn, in order to not impose on others, but she's carrying a massive amount of self-loathing. We don't know whether or not she knows her father left because she's deaf, so I won't necessarily attribute that to it. But she knows that her mom's a hardass for sure, and she quite possibly blames herself for that. She knows that her classmates gave her a hard time for her deafness, which contributes to her not liking herself. Hell, she probably blames herself for her sister being a delinquent and hanging around her instead of going to school. Then there's Shoya, who she clearly blames herself for.

But there's more to her than just self-loathing. Despite her condition, she's shown trying to be "normal" - and sometimes just being normal without intending to. She'll change her hair for (and even confess to) a boy she likes. She likes feeding the karp. She enjoys hanging out with friends. She gets into fights with her sister over fucking shampoo.
She's also kind. She realized before leaving that Shoya was starting to become hated, and she tried to ease the incoming pain as much as she could by cleaning his desk before he could see it. Kid!Shoya literally gave her no reason to want to help him, but she did - simply because she knew the pain of being disliked and didn't wish it on him.

I think that Shoko really is a character, not just a plot device. You want plot device, take a look at that asshole Kawai. She's pretty much there in tandem with Mashiba to force Ishida to confront his past.

Not him, but even considering his manga characterization, doesn't the same logic still apply? He took his past "bullying" way too seriously, but I feel that he isn't as particularly malevolent as he is just... uh, easily triggered.

>even though that was largely his own fault.
Nitpick here, but wasn't it mostly Kawai's fault? She literally blabbed in front of her entire class for brownie points with the redhead fucker.

She wasn't going to say anything until Shouya acted like he was threatening her. The rest of the class didn't even seem to care. Shouya was freaking out over the secret being revealed because of what happened in middle school.

>Wait, do people think this?
His eyes and his generally emotionless mannerisms. He's just some stupid brat without any meaning to his life who thinks he's got it harder than everyone else.

feel free to stop posting any time, Kawai

While I disagree with what said. I've seen a lot of people calling her a plot-device. I feel like this could have been avoided if they adaoted the pic related chapter in entirety. While the film would lose in subtlety, it would really drive the point how much Shouko suffered because of her condition.

Huh. I didn't feel as though he was threatening her. Admittedly, I DID feel that it was dishonest of him to try to "keep it on the down-low", but I don't think that she had any grounds to feel "threatened".

That's because Kawai's a cunt.

>Mashiba

He didn't do anything wrong, the MC was just convinced that he'd feel he was a piece of shit. It's kinda hinted that he knew MC was a former bully trying to make good and also that Kawai was a pretty vile person who isn't aware of how shitty she is.

So the issue with Shoko's character is that they made her too subtle in the film, especially because they missed one of her most character-defining chapters in the manga?

Assuming that I'm understanding you correctly, I can actually agree. I still can't say that I felt that she was a plot device in the film, though.

In the manga it did look that way out of context, not in the movie. Movie Ishida is basically a different character from the manga one.

>It's kinda hinted that he knew MC was a former bully trying to make good
Incorrect. Otherwise, he wouldn't have slugged Ishida on the bridge. I honestly don't think that Mashiba is as evil as people say he is, but he's fairly emotionally volatile.

>also that Kawai was a pretty vile person who isn't aware of how shitty she is
Not just implied, it's basically spelled out in the manga. She views herself as a good, kind person, and starts cracking when she thinks that other people don't view her that way. Even worse, her default response to people pointing out that she's done awful things in the past is "you did worse". Hell, the exact instance that she spills the beans about Ishida is after he points out that she also bullied Shoko.

Her ending is quite vague, but we have almost no reason to believe that she even gets better, unlike Ueno or Sahara.

Explain? I went over both the manga and the movie as carefully as I could, and they were both pretty much the same guy. I agree that his conversation with Kawai looked far more aggressive in the manga, but his general intent was the same.

>Assuming that I'm understanding you correctly
I'm kinda shit at expressing myself through writing, so I can't blame you. I'm saying she is a character, and definitely not a plot device. But without her pov chapter and her lack of dialogue, for obvious reasons, a lot of people didn't really get her as a character. Which is really ironic, since the whole point of the movie was about understanding other people.

Shouko believes that everything bad happening is her fault. It was 'her fault' the choir lost the competition, she saw a happy classroom become disruptive with her as a catalyst and even back then she had a crush on Ishida but the more she interacted with him, the more he fucked up his life.

She only saw how unhappy everyone else was and didn't really think about how terrible she was being treated or how their suffering was karmic. She was trying mend things with Ishida right up until they got in a full on fight.

It's why Ueno hated her, Ueno was used to giving people shit so seeing someone take all this yet still do nothing other than blaming themselves pissed her off.

Shouya wanted her to not say anything. Kawai interpreted it as him trying to shut her up, even though they'd been in high school together for 2 and a half years without any problems, but she's a self-righteous cunt who won't do what a bully tells her to do.

Yes - it was (the screen grab). There were also other pacing issues that I've discussed before beyond just that scene - for example Most of the scenes all the way through Koe no Katachi were all "equal length" what I mean by this there were no scenes or shots that were held to add suspense or pensiveness. There were also very few "quick" cuts to convey action - outside of the white-out flashback things. This revealed itself mostly to me during the unofficial date sequence - it felt like a power point presentation with no cut length conveying a message, short or long.

I think this is due to Yamada coming from largely Anime series - I know it's not her first film but it definitely feels like she hasn't got a grasp on the difference between Anime series scene and cut length, and a feature film dynamic freedom with scene and cut length.

I hate to use him because it's an unfair advantage but Satoshi Kon is a contrasting comparison - someone who understands you can use shot length to convey more than what is being shown. While Kon is an absolute god when discussing this sort of talent - if you break away from anime and look at feature film - it's a pretty basic technique you need to learn.

It's a fundamental skill Yamada will need to recognize and use eventually if she wants to rise to the next level - however I think she is just blind to it at the moment - I think if a fellow director explained it to her for like 5 minutes how I have with you - she would face-palm and instantly get it, then look back and realize how much of a blind spot it was. IT's not that she doiesn't have the talent for it - it's that she doesn't realize either the element is there and can be manipulated - or, she is "Series shy" to break away from episodic 22 minute cut pacing (relative to movie length freedom). Another way to put it, in a 22 minute episode long held shots and short cuts are actually not as long or as precise (short cuts) because you don't have the .1/2

Ohhhhh, I see. No worries.
...And that actually is ironic. A sad irony, considering how that basically means that those people only understood Ishida, but still an interesting one.

>she had a crush on Ishida but the more she interacted with him, the more he fucked up his life
I think there's a misunderstanding here - either with you or with me. She wanted to be his friend in middle school, yes, but she didn't like him like that. That was Ueno.

It was obvious almost straight away with their re-union that she had feelings for him. Love at first (second?) sight seems pretty unlikely so she would have had to have feelings for him from before. Also explains why she exploded in such an extreme manner when she reached her breaking point.

I watched the movie first and then read the manga a few days later and he really felt different to me. Movie Ishida felt a lot more "gentle", and the movie in general did. In general he acted a lot more agressive in the manga. For example, his reaction to Shimada at the takoyaki stand. Movie Ishida looked like was about to shit his pants, while the manga one looked like he was about to kill someone. Movie Ishida starts picking on Shouko after watching Ueno act passive-agressive for some time, manga Ishida starts almost immediately. Movie Ishida was bullying to impress the people around him, manga Ishida says he did so because he was bored. Movie Ishida doesn't know Nagatsuka because he is afraid to even look at the people around him, manga Ishida knew him and looked down on him before the bike borrowing. Movie Ishida seems to have realized that Shouko was cleaning his desk, while manga one didn't. Movie Ishida did push Shouko when confronting her, but didn't really fight her after she bit him. Manag Ishida got in a fist fight with her, and the teachers and classmates had to separate them. When his bullying started, movie Ishida is in disbelief, feeling hurt and betrayed. Manga Ishida initially tries fighting back and is pissed. Movie Ishida seemed more like a friend to Shimada and the other kid, manga Ishida was acting like an asshole towards them.

cont/2/2
Another way to put it, in a 22 minute episode long held shots and short cuts are actually not as long or as precise (short cuts) because you don't have the film length runtime freedom. In a 2 hour movie you can have a shot hold for an extra 30 seconds (using an exaggeration here) and it won't really affect everything else nearly as much as if you had a 30 second held shot in a 22 minute episode. because of their truncated and condensed nature - among other things - episodic 22 minute runtime have their own specific pacing "rules" or conventions - there are exceptions out there, but they make the audience uncomfortable.

In a film - you can relax more and viewers will accept longer shots without feeling uncomfortable, especially if the shot is telling an important story in and of itself. Id point to Ghost in the shell film (1st, 98?) but that's not really what I mean - The sunrise in Lawrence of Arabia is a really important scene and iconic one - and it's a looong held shot.

youtube.com/watch?v=0ccB1KTzr9o

About 35 seconds

Sorry to go off the deep end in film perspective- but here is the thing, Yamada has the potential to rise above just Anime so I critique Koe no Katachi as more of a film geek than an anime nerd.

In his chapter he says he approached Ishida because he thought he would feel more normal, by being around someone weirder and how he regrets it.
>easily triggered
well that's one way to put it

>le Mashiba is a sociopathic asshole who literally doesn't give a shit maymay
Not this again. Is everyone forgetting how he went back and willingly humiliated himself in front of Shoya's old asshole teacher in order to get permission to use the school building to shoot the movie? Because he wanted to make it up to Shoya?

The dude's more than a little fucked up, but he's not the irredeemable asshole that Kawai is.

Well, hell. I wasn't expecting to have such an educative experience on Sup Forums of all places today, but this is some seriously interesting stuff that I've learned and gotten to chew on this morning.

Thanks! I'll keep an eye out for more posts like these. You've my gratitude.

He's being a pretentious faggot. He's just railing on the movie for not having absurdly long shots. Don't take his post as fact. They are, after all, merely opinions. Absurdly long shots made A Space Odyssey way more boring than it needed to be.

THREADLY REMINDER THAT YUZU IS A MIRACLE OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BEST GIRL

Likewise, it was productive - each time I iterate in this fashion I keep what I learned and carry it to the next exchange.