We need an multiplayer rpg

>we need an multiplayer rpg
>say no more


When will these meme well and truly die?

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What thought are you trying to convey here?

There are many multiplayer RPG which don't use the Holy Trinity system.

Basicly any action RPG with Multiplayer option.

What notion are you trying to exude here?

That the trinity's existence is bad.

Not that OP has a substantive alternative for building a cohesive and directly graspable team mechanic that the masses could engage in.

Pantheon

4some.

There is only one true master race.

>That the trinity's existence is bad.
Yeah, just take it out.
It worked fine for Guild Wars 2.

Guild wars 2 would have been great if it didn't have so few abilities to use at a time.

>support classes
>debuffing classes
>hybrids, such as offtanks that can fend off adds and still dispatch them/deal respectable damage
That and much more, out and simplified in the trinity to cater to the fucking mouthbreathers playing mmos in [current year]
No fun allowed

>mfw i fucking love the holy trinity
>implying tanking as a warrior in wotlk, almost always maintaining full threat while outdpsing everyone, wasn't one of the best experiences i've had in a video game

If you play MMOs in a """squad""" then you have autism.
Healers are sperglords.
Don't play anything but the knight / fire magician class.
The multiplayer aspect is only there for PvP and bragging rights, faggots.

...

Remove tanks___, boom game improved

All you need are two types: tank that does damage and healing mage that can do damage.

Not sure if you're a dumb healer or a useless tank.

>LOL GET RID OF TRINITY
>how?
>LOL GET RID OF IT

so someone explain to me how exactly do you accomplish getting rid of the trinity system. because literally EVERY game is a system of numbers, and when it comes to multiplayer games there are few choices.

>something to reduce enemy numbers
>what is a tank, healer
>something to increase player's numbers
>what is deeps, buffers/debuffers

a lot would claim buffers/debuffers are different from deeps but they serve the same purpose. the only difference is they do so indirectly, usually.

The trinity exists (and is a vital part of games) because games are designed in such a way as to require it.

In games with the trinity, you will always get hit. It's not possible to evade attacks regardless of how skilled you are. Because of this, it's just logical to assign the toughest person to get hit.
In these games fights can last long times, especially boss fights. Without healing you will die before the enemies do because they're just that much tougher. Because of this, you need a healer.
As for DPS, they're essentially the left over people. They don't need to stand around being hit, and they cannot heal, so they exist simply to make sure enemies die (some may provide utility, but their primary role is bringing more damage).

You cannot remove the trinity from most games without redesigning the core gameplay of the game. It's like removing the foundation from a house. You need that, and without it the house will collapse.
To remove the trinity, you need to make a different game. An example is Destiny. It has no tanks, no healers and anyone can do DPS. Most classes bring their own thing to a group. This works because in Destiny you can avoid attacks, you don't have to get hit.
Another example is Monster Hunter. Every weapon brings it's own thing to a group, but no one has a tank/healer/dps role.

That's one of the biggest issues with ffxiv.

There're two sub issues that feed into it.

>Party Finder
>The two standard party sizes.

Party Finder is decidedly the bigger of the two subissues.
Requiring that pretty much any random assembly of classes can reliably clear all content at around the same rate. Meaning that all the tanks and healers are roughly the same. The DPS have two or three major subtypes.

Which feeds and expands the issue with the party size differences. Most content is 4-man, hard capped. With the occasional 8-main boss-fight and raids.

This means any support feature of a DPS must be balanced around the 8-man potential, while also not causing a detriment to their 4-man viability, because Party Finder, ya know.

Thus, a support must needs be a DPS first, and their support aspects may well simply be a tacked on minor buff.

Hell, one of the three healing classes is actually just another DPS with a pet that heals.

Party Finder also pretty much destroys any social cohesion, especially when it's cross server, as it is with FFXIV.

The control classes in games like City of Heroes were pretty neat, but the game also had like 50 dudes in every room later on.

All you really need are a mage for crowd control and occasional healing and a warrior for damage dealing and threat generation.

That pic is old as hell and exaggerated to hell and back, but it's not completely off the mark.

There's a higher % of decent tanks and healers because the demands of the job itself tend to weed out the shitty ones pretty fast, but doing maximum DPS while dealing with the same mechanics everyone else in the fight has to deal with is more difficult by some small margin. Unfortunately actually good DPS players make up less than 5% of the dumbass faggots that play DPS.

This mostly applies to the more popular modern MMOs, since MP management for healers is nowhere near as big of a deal as it used to be, and generally focuses more on HP bar whack a mole instead of juggling buffs and shit like that, and keeping threat as a Tank is fucking braindead unless the rest of the group heavily outgears you. In older games the competency required to play the roles well was closer to even even, but everything's just trying to be a WoW clone these days.

Meanwhile in Rift
>standard party size: 5 people
>1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps, 1 support
>every fucking party finder group you join, the support is actually a dps

There is literally nothing wrong with the holy trinity as long as there are sub divisions in the rolls.

Healers shouldn't be just HEALERS, there should be classes based around hots, or who specialize in single healers, or who sacrifice healing ability for mana efficiency and party buffs.

DPS should operate on the same concept as healers. DoTs, debuffers, dedicated controllers, mana batteries, etc.

Ideally the game should be balanced so that everything is useful, while still being unique but I guess mmorpgs are dead.

Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield, my main problem with MMOs is that it doesn't require any skill to play them and that skilled player still needs a group to do anything.
Also I think classes are a bad thing, it would be much better if you could invest points in stats however you like and use any weapon you want as long as you have stats required for it which would allow for variety of builds.

Classes aren't really a bad thing as long as they are unique in their own sense, each getting different advancement paths and their own little gimmicks like EverQuest used to give them

>Thinking Damage is the most complicated
Don't have to pay attention to threat, don't have to pay attention to the rest of your team. Just have to focus on spamming 1 and 2 over an over and over and over and over.

>Don't have to pay attention to threat
Wrong

>allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield

I think a bigger problem is the fact that most MMOs don't allow for collision between players, because they have concerns about griefers blocking doorways and server load dealing with complex multi-player collisions.

Multiple times when you go to melee someone in an FPS you can just pass right through them or they 'slide' off the screen impossibly quickly, faster than you can react.
Melee in first person is a complete shit show, which means blocking will be just as bad.

>Don't have to pay attention to threat
This is only correct if the tank isn't shit, which sadly isn't the case for the majority

>2003+13
>MMOs still commonly use stuff like simple trinity
Damn shame really. I actually think a lot of EVE's good core concepts would adapt well to an entirely different setting and gameplay that more people might like, and I wish more MMOs stole liberally from it and from other different MMOs rather then purely from WoW. Even something like ECM, sensor damps and so on could transfer to a non-tech setting, like in a pure fantasy it'd be pretty awesome if stuff like illusion, sensory disruption/nerfing, and so on were core powerful options that you could base a build around.

I don't even hate WoW even though I never got into it, I'm fine with Blizz making a lot of people happy, but I still kind of wish it hadn't cast quite such a long shadow over the next decade of MMO development. MMOs can do such awesome stuff, and I wonder if WoW had been somewhat less successful/dominating and instead we'd seen much more smaller, focused titles experimenting with tons of ambitious stuff rather then one $200 million+ LE WOW KILLAH after another, if we'd have a better MMO environment now.

While it still has the trinity i think The Secret World did many things right. Only thing is that it lied a bit about "be anything the way you want" or something along those lines.

Sure you can try to be a hammer tank, but sword tanks will always be superior (with hammer as 2nd mind you). Tried Hammer/Shotgun build which is fun and dandy for normal/heroic but nightmares are not doable like that.

tank/dps/healer into 2

tank1 - traditional tank using threats and heavy armor
tank2 - shapeshifter or pet class whose pets use threats

dps1 - standard rogue or archer or whatever
dps2 - mage that specifically uses dots and debuffs

healer1 - straight heals with buffs
healer2 - hots with differing buffs

Kinda funny how they completely done away with "CC" as the third leg of the triangle since CC classes were always completely fucking OP.

Such a shame the "monsters are stronger than players" philosophy is completely abandoned in MMO's

>because they have concerns about griefers blocking doorways
They should just let you kill them if that happens. Or work to give enough degrees of freedom that choke points naturally can be bypassed or are a focus of combat anyway. EVE collision mechanics are actually a useful and important part of gameplay, although obviously in full 3D space it's somewhat different since even choke points are harder mess with entirely.

What the fuck are you talking about? Logifag here and I can tell you that you're wrong.

EvE has a holy trinity. It replaces tanks with EWAR. You have the DPS clump up on their anchor and then you have logistics clunk up on their anchor. Logistics will repair the DPS while Ewar prevents the other side from applying logistics.

The only way the trinity is more advanced is when you have brawling vs kiting. Kiting is naturally better than Brawling but Brawling has a lot of tricks up its sleeve to get within brawling range.

T.EvE player since 2008.

So basically the trinity but with a twist (ie. WoW).

Monster Hunter is great because everyone does damage and healing is primarily self reliant. You can get rid of the trinity system by allowing people to do everything, and picking what stats/attacks/skills they want instead of being purely dps, tank, healer.

>let's get rid of the trinity just for the sake of getting rid of it
The only way this works without being complete shit is if the MMO in question is completely skill based, doing away with hotbar RNG tab targetting combat entirely. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2.

It would be neat to see an MMO with the combat mechanics of, say, Mount and Blade, and the players got through the content with tactical formations and weapon choices.

>DPS tunnels the boss so hard he makes it to China
>adds kill everyone
every time

Is this a fucking animu characterization of t3 cruisers? Fucking hell man.

Got any more?

>LOL GET RID OF IT
This is exactly how it sounds.

Let me show you Phantasy Star Online 2
>LOL WEEB DRESSUP GAA-
Before you go off on a spergfuck, lets take a look at each class and how combat plays out.

Instead of DPS - TANK - HEAL, we basically have MOBBING - BOSSING.

Hunter: Big sword guy, does a bit of both mobbing and bossing. High health. Hits thing with sword.
Fighter: Little swords guy, or knuckles. Can mob if he tries, mostly just fucks bosses in the face.
Ranger: Shooty rifle man. Does shooty rifle man things. Has a rocket launcher for mobbing too.
Gunner: Literally John Woo gunkata, initial intention was mobbing but is actually way better at bossing.
Force: MAGIC USER, Does literally everything.
Techer: """Priest""", has the best support skills, but those support skills basically consists of "Raise everybody's attack and defense so they can mob and boss harder", also has the strongest normal melee in the game, one of the BEST mobbers in the game.
Braver: Literally samurai. Bow for bossing, katana for mobbing.
Bouncer: Dual swords and Jet Boots. Mostly just mobbing here. "Can cast magic" but nobody does.

Takes some skill tier: DPS
At least they have to look at more than one unit tier: Healer
Tunnels 1 target while never being targeted by 95% of the mechanics tier: Tank

monster hunter isn't an mmo dipshit.

So, single-target DPS and multi-target DPS?

This and one more are all I got.

Aggro? Yeah that kind of exists, its whoever the monster sees first and they rarely change targets.
>OH NO, THE SPACE PRIEST TECHER PISSED OFF A GROUP OF ENEMIES
Fucking good, he can deal with it himself because he's got a fucking weapon and WILL USE IT, even better than most other classes because of a skill that vacuum packs all those little shitters right up the Techer's asshole so he can BONK ALL OF THEM WITH HIS CLUB SIMULTANEOUSLY.
FUCK YEAH SPACE PRIEST!

>HOLY SHIT A HUGE BOSS, WHERE'S THE TANK?
First off
>getting hit
This is a game about DON'T FUCKING GET HIT.
If you're NOT SUPPOSED TO GET FUCKING HIT, then WHO TANKS?

NOBODY.
Everybody watches for when something is going to attack, and they ALL DODGE.
Or they get fucking hit like a retard and has to go chug a potion in the corner or cast a heal on themself.

>WAAA OUR DPS ISN'T DOING ENOUGH DPS
That's YOUR FAULT, NIGGA. You are also the DPS! Everybody is DPS! Fucking get good.
Pick your preferred flavor of DPS and get in there and fight. Don't be that faggot who plays Techer thinking they're gonna sit back and be the heal slut. YOU HAVE A STRONK CLUB, HIT THINGS.

>get rid of the trinity by making everyone a DPS
genius

>Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield
No there's another option, it's make every class self-sufficient, incredibly hard to kill, and do crazy damage. It happened to an MMO I occasionally play, Dungons and Dragons Online. At the game's peak the trinity was at its height (though it also had enchanter/Crowd Control component) but then they dismantled it in one update and the player population has been dwindling since (for reasons beyond 99% of the game becoming easy to solo, but I'm fairly certain that was a part of it).

Some of you guys are alright, don't come to Huola tomorrow. I have a curse fit to test.[/Spoiler]

so the answer is to turn everyone into a damage dealer? that's a holy singularity, user. that's not better.

The fuck are YOU talking about.

>EvE has a holy trinity. It replaces tanks with EWAR.
No, tank is still tank. Pure individual active and passive tanking is a critical thing, most types of EWAR don't necessarily come up at all outside of large fights (which as a pirate and w-hole fag I rarely bothered with). EVE has far more individual potential and options. Logistics itself represents another option and set of tradeoffs. ECM, sensor fuckery, neuts/nos, and all the various counters is an entirely different layer.

>You have the DPS clump up on their anchor and then you have logistics clunk up on their anchor. Logistics will repair the DPS while Ewar prevents the other side from applying logistics.
lol? Try playing some more of the game, because you're genuinely missing out on a lot of the most fun stuff if that's all you do.

>T.EvE player since 2008.
EVE player since 2005. If you are purely a large fleet nullsec shitter (or worse, militia) then fuck right off. Also
>EvE

>What is MH: Frontier
I was agreeing with that user, that the mechanics in Monster Hunter are great.

sounds like guildwars 2. make of that what you will.

MMO's don't require zero skill to play well, it's just that the skill ceiling is pretty low. Which works because usually the difficult content is more about having to coordinate a ton of players to do their job more than relying on individual skill. That and a true action MMO will probably never be a thing any time soon due to server limitations/shitty internet. Plus the game being accessible means more people will play it, and pretty much the only major advantage an MMO has over other games is that there's (supposed to be) a shitton of people around at once.

I just wish MMOs could go back to having a support role in groups in addition on Tank/DPS/Heals.

>No cutty THICK moros girl

Fucking amarrian shitters.

eve rarely comes up on Sup Forums after that long ago brief spell it was a thing, but sometimes these threads tempt me to re-sub one more time.

Unless you're doing small gang work then you need to have anchors, dumbass.

Age of Conan has full collision. They fixed potential griefers by simply giving everyone a sneak ability which lets you pass through players.
You're not actually invisible and take 500% increased damage while in that stance.
Works like a charm.

>When will this meme truly die?
Maybe when you have some way of assisting the situation instead of being a nuisance, Fry.

explain further

>Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage
>get rid of the trinity by making everyone a DPS
>that's a holy singularity

YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT, AND IT MAKES FOR A WONDERFUL GAME WITHOUT PEOPLE BEING PIGEONHOLED INTO "ROLES"

FAIRLY EASY BOSS WITH PUBS: youtube.com/watch?v=faNAbxxuDDA

FUCKTON OF JOHN WOOS GOING NUTS ON A BIG ONE: youtube.com/watch?v=PxfOuB-ShOU

HE TURNS INTO A BIG BABY BITCH SO EVERYBODY GETS IN A MECH: youtube.com/watch?v=oVbzOYF2xe4

kings and heroes

Artist should have done state issue.

>not doing small gang work
For what purpose. Shit, even in nullsec some of the most fun I had were 6 or 7 of us with one logi guy and everyone else in AFs just seeing how far we could go and how much we could kill.

ALSO JESUS CHRIST I SHOULD HAVE WATCHED THAT THIRD VIDEO OF THE MECHS BEFORE LINKING IT, THAT GUY PLAYING IS FUCKING AWFUL.

Some GW2 faggot is here again. Your "formula" failed, get over with it. A MMO without healers and tanks is shit.

>being this much of a shitter

explain what? how turning everyone into the exact same thing is worse than having people of differing roles? not to mention these action "mmos" are built around having small groups (usually the magic 4), so scaling it up to a MASSIVE scale often doesn't work thanks to lag.

this is one of the main reasons tab targetting and hot bars exist. you could add a shitload of people and it wouldn't negatively affect their ability to take or deal damage.

there is nothing inherently bad about the holy trinity, but streamlining content is what caused the stagnation.

We need Secondary tanks, Off-tanks, CCs, DDs, Supports, Magic tanks and all the other extinct roles back.

Just make a a system where you don't have to do a shitload of work to do one thing for one boss and we're golden.

As soon as someone comes up with something that's not garbage to replace it. IE never.

>We need Secondary tanks, Off-tanks, CCs, DDs, Supports, Magic tanks and all the other extinct roles back.
Nobody would use them because "they're not as good as the real deal full tank full healer full DPS" and will get kicked from groups just for being a class.

The problem in current MMOs is that the dps, tanks and healers provide themselves many buffs.

monster hunter is a solo game, multiplayer is a nice bonus, or a crutch for noobs who can't master the art of hunting

That's a problem with the goddamn content of modern MMOs.

Imagine if your tank just straight up died if he didn't tap out every now an then. Imagine if your healer and all the damage dealers died if there wasn't off-tanks dealing with all that shit. Or supports keeping healers in business.

The problem isn't the trinity, the problem is it got to a point where MMOs got streamlined into trinities.

Not that guy, but that's the streamlining he was talking about. It's not about "not wanting them", it's about needing them.

...

hmm....
go on...

I liked FFXIII's paradigms, I think they could work out as archetypes for an mmo.

There's nothing wrong with trinity-style MMOs it's just that most games do it in a shit way.

Either it's too heavy handed (healers can do literally nothing but heal, tanks need 6000000% aggro to not have DPS pull from them, DPS die from a fart) or it's too simple (no crowd control, no buffing, no debuffing, no hybrids, tanks can take all damage instead of physical but not magical, etc.)

It's bad for an MMO to have "synchronous soloing" as I call it, where you play through content that *just so happens* to have other players in it, but you're not really paying attention to what they're doing or even slowing down when they go AFK for five minutes. At that point you might as well play a good single-player RPG, and if you want to chat there's places all over the Internet to do that.

But it's also bad for an MMO to have one strategy that must be used in all content (tank grabs aggro while being supported by healer while DPS kills things).

I would love to have a video game where a system like this is in place. Red White is objectively the coolest combo.

MMOs didnt make the trinity.
Players did.
Because it works the best.

In order to not have the trinity, you need to remove or replace concepts such as "Taking damage, doing damage, and recovering lost HP."

Those are so basic in the design, and so minimal, its practically impossible to remove, as players will always try to maximize the damage they do, and minimize the damage they take. (The obvious example is MMO creators removing healing as an option)

In short, you dont want LESS you want MORE, and the cost of adding more, is longer queues/wait time to fill every unique role you want to see.

(If content can be beaten w/o min/maxing, then the content is going to be easy after a few tries, and you'll get bored.)

What is this from?

You're wrong.

Persona 5's new trailer

yes

It's a solo-able game. MH1 was definitely focused around group hunting and online play.
>Fatalis was the last monster you could hunt online and it wasn't available in offline mode.
>New event quests were dished out on every weekend for exclusive monster parts and rewards.
>You could only get food buffs in the online Guildhall/town.
>Monster HP pools were larger in Online hunts versus Offline hunts.
>Keyboard support for typing in chat before and during hunts.
>Bowguns were the only weapons in the game that could heal
Most of these things were either scraped or reimplemented in later versions of the series.

how do other class based games get away with not having tanks and healers? there's tons of ways you can differentiate classes with strengths and weaknesses. fast/slow, long/short range, single/multiple target damage, etc.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks.

>EvE has a holy trinity
You're a dumbfuck. Even in nullsec fleet battles there's no trinity, in fact the core issue is that it's fundamentally impossible for an MMO to have a simple trinity if there's no concept of aggro grabbing. The closest it gets in eve is the simpler normal space PvE fights where enemies tend to just target the first thing they see and then stay on it, but in w-space even that doesn't work. The way weapon damage scales based on sig size/speed/weapon size/etc also fucks it up.

Eve has tons of flaws but trinity it ain't, at all. "Tanking" can't be basic a role itself when anyone could be primary'd whenever and FCs will respond dynamically. "DPS" still has to consider how it's not going to die, even if that's only surviving long enough to have logi support.

Yeah i got one, how about not forcing a metagame on your game and let everyone have utility

>In order to not have the trinity, you need to remove or replace concepts such as "Taking damage, doing damage, and recovering lost HP."
No, jesus fuck. You only think this way because that's all you've ever been exposed to. That's not the only way to do things. Trinity grows out of an MMO's design, NOT simply player choices.

>PSO2
>easy to out stat every boss
>still pumping heales via items or resta
>spam dodge for iframes

borrrring. It looks impressive but that's all it does. Look impressive.

What's the point of multiple classes or teamwork if everyone can do everything?

Nah that's how it does work. You need the ability to die, HP. You need something to threated you, taking damage. You need a balancer between the two so it's not who does dps faster, healing.

The trinity exists because it works and works well. If there isn't something threatening then you don't need to heal. Making it too threatening means you either zerg rush rez or you make a tank to focus the damage taken while the dps kills.

You can talk all you want but untill you provide a better solution to the trinity it stays. And far smarter people have tired only to fail.

I liked the way Spiral Knights divvied things up, where everyone's roles and abilities were determined by choice of weapons and equipment instead of classes. Your shield broke easily and healing options were limited to checkpoints and potions dropped from mobs, so there were no tanks or healers and you were basically expected not to get hit.

Since everyone was a damage dealer, the differences were in how mobs were managed. Bombs did crowd control and were the best source of debuffs, guns kited and kept their distance, and swords were up-and-personal and kept other melee shit away from the aforementioned weapons.

Because there's still room to specialize a bit depending on the fight and group, and ways to limit what can actually be active in a build at any given time so even if everyone can do everything everyone still needs to choose and make tradeoffs. There can be many ways to fight solo or small gang successfully with varying tradeoffs in terms of full strength combat power vs flexibility/redundancy, ie., what happens when some of your group starts to get picked off or you face another group that has counters to your strat.

yeah I know it's popular to bash the Trinity, but the only demonstrated alternative is letting every player be simultaneously a tank, healer, dps and CC. we've seen how that turns out and it sucks. sorry.

like plenty of other people have said all you have to do is limit healing so the main way of not dying is not getting hit.