Can someone explain why Illidan is a bad guy? From what I can tell he saved his people twice...

Can someone explain why Illidan is a bad guy? From what I can tell he saved his people twice, and was them cast out by them. Illidan sought more power (a common theme in Warcraft) but the power was used to save his people, and the world, from the Legion. If he hadn't gained these powers the Legion may have take over. Instead he stops them and is imprisoned for 10,000 years.

But that isn't enough. The only reason his imprisonment wasn't longer was because they had need for his powers to save them again. So, he does, at the expense of his body and form. What does he get this time? Told to leave and never return by his brother.

At this point he's rightfully upset and does make some bad choices, but his people BETRAYED him and BANISHED him. He has nothing left, they put him into this position so he decided to make do with what he could.

Am I missing something? Why was he considered bad earlier when he was helping his people?

Fel can't melt wisps

get a life nerd, no one cares.

been a long ass time so i might be off, but i think the worst thing he did was risk creating a second sundering because he believed he was doing the right thing/wanted to help.

this was after they bitched him out for pretty much no reason though so yeah, illidan was pretty much forced into this by his people being cunts.

SAVAGE

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I'm guessing after he was banished the hate inside him finally gave the fel a chance to corrupt him. After that he was a legit bad guy, although for all the valid reasons.

But what made him bad before getting banished? Why did they banish him in the first place? He saved them.

While most of what he did was in the name of defending his people, he never denied having lust for absolute power. He is imprisoned for 10,000 years by Malfurion after creating the second Well of Eternity and displaying zero remorse.

"After the Great Sundering, Illidan, who had filled seven vials with water from the Well of Eternity, scaled the peaks of Mount Hyjal, where he found a small, tranquil lake. There, he poured the contents of three of the vials into the waters. The chaotic energies quickly manifested, tainting the lake and twisting it into a new Well of Eternity. Illidan's joy was short-lived, however, when his brother, Malfurion, Tyrande and the rest of the kaldorei leadership discovered him- and all were horrified at what he'd done. Unable to accept that his brother had committed such treachery, Malfurion tried again to explain to Illidan the folly of his ways. The magic, he insisted, was chaotic by nature and it could only bring about destruction so long as it existed. Illidan refused to listen, so enraptured by the magic's power that his brother seemed to him an unknowing fool. Illidan claimed that magic would be needed should the Burning Legion ever return.

The lack of remorse shook Malfurion to his core and he raged at his brother, understanding now that Illidan was lost forever to the magic's sway. He ordered him imprisoned deep below Hyjal in a jail kept far from sight and mind."

He basically sought to reintroduce arcane magic after the entire Night Elf race decided that it was worse than Hitler and imprisoned/killed/destroyed all mages (Highborn) and magic artifacts.

he was basically shunned by furion for restoring the well of eternity. centuries later furion shuns and banishes him for using the power of demons. basically furion believes the power corrupted him and destroyed his morals but illidan was just using the power for the greater good in wc3. furion is understandably wary because magic is how the highborne elves started the war of the ancients but illidan was trying to do the right thing in the wrong way

There are certain artifacts of old plot points Warcraft that have simply remained despite retconns removing the meaning behind them.

In WC III blizzard was shaping magic up to be inherently demonic in origin, to the point where even arcane was on the fringe of evil. They wanted to make it as if the high elves and humans were basically completely ignorant to the true horrors of magic that the night elves seemed to have engrained in their cultural memory. Magic was supposed to be forever suppressed by the world tree and such, to show how dangerous it could be and how much of a crime illidan committed.

When blizzard fucked around with the origin of the well of eternity, established blue dragon flight as guardians of magic and increasingly made arcane and fel two separate concepts, the "horror" of arcane became solely and irrational fear by night elves who had clung to druidism.

Illidan was never a villain, but he was an untrustworthy hero and perhaps an anti-hero with his motives involving self-preservation and self-empowerment. The Night Elves imprisoning him once had impact, but again, with arcane being shown as being a safe and glorious magic embodied by the titans themselves, that impact has been completely lost.

He betrayed them once and they still haven't forgiven him.

>twisted
>volatile
>chaotic
>tainted
>mfw blizzard is now saying arcane is order incarnate

Illidan rotted in prison for nothing.

And Illidan was right, the power was needed to beat back the Legion. It seems like the Night Elves are incapable of siding with a lesser evil, so instead they made Illidan into a monster and a brand new threat.

The Well and arcane magic being the lesser, but necessary evil, and the Legion being the true threat. As much as the Night Elves hate arcane it saved them, twice. They seem pretty fucking stupid if they can't accept that.

malfurion just hatin trying to block a niggas shine

That can't be real, those wings are terrible.

He was kind of a cunt.

>Can someone explain why Illidan is a bad guy

>when malfurion and the others planned to take down azshara and destroy the well of eternity, he ran to azshara and told on them because he didn't want to lose the well
>he then fought on the side of the highborne/legion
>when it looked like they were gonna lose that fight, he stole water from the well and ran away like a coward

>and ran away like a coward
Like any sane person would do when the well is imploding.

he ran away before that, while the fight between the legion and the night elves was still going on
he ran away thinking the demons would win, so he abandoned everyone and made off with the water

>illidan
>sane
the whole point of illidan was that he wasn't sane

Because elves are stuck-up cunts that are only useful for raping.

Changes to lore has Illidan drawing the water just before the Well implodes as well as turning his back on the Legion and fighting with the night elves in the final hours of the war.

Also Illidan is clearly not sane if he is drawing water from the well just after it starts to pull the Legion into itself.

Bad writing, magic was EVIL and illidan brought it back to the world (even though two highborne factions did the same thing).

This was before blizzard pretty much established arcane as being a normal thing the world since forever that was governed by blue dragons and titan constructs.

>Can someone explain why Illidan is a bad guy?
Apparently because he's selfish and wants power.

Wasn't there also some subplot where Illidan and Malfurion wanted to fuck the same woman or something?

Illidan wanted to fuck Tyrande but she liked Malfurion.

Jealously.
>Why did they banish him in the first place?
Because arcane magic makes demons salivate.

After he fucked off to the outland he killed a ridiculous amount of elfs to make his new DH army.

Yes and Illidan was really bitter about it.

fuck changes to lore
fuck warcraft lore altogether and fuck blizzard

He does this after the Night Elves fucked him twice. Anything he did after his imprisonment and then banishment aren't an issue. He did those things because of what was done to him.

But arcane is evil! Even though NE can now be mages. Fucking blizzard

>expecting degenerate knife ears to show reason or compassion

NE can be mage?

Are you fucking kidding me?

I fucking hate WoW.

It's funny because arcane magic was made non-evil the moment WoW came out, possibly even by the time the frozen throne came out because of the sunwell.

Really though, the lore inconsistencies have pretty much made Malfurion into an asshole, which is now canon since the books make Staghelm and Miav right and show Malfurion is obsessed with druidism and doesn't care about his people. It is practically canon that it's Malfurions fault.

>Can someone explain why Illidan is a bad guy.
no, because he isn't

>NE can be mage?
Yeah, it's the Shen'dralar guys from Dire Maul.

Illidan was a goody boy, he dindu nuffin hands up don't shoot am I right fellow Warcrafts?

It's not.

You shitters know nothing about the lore. Sure, cows can be paladins and undead are priests, yup, but NE mages?! Nooooo

Yes, basically Illidan's "great sin" was fucking nothing because there are now THREE different factions of highborne that did the same thing.

Obviously, the most famous are high elves which made the sun well and became day-walkers to become a different species and culture.

The next faction was the Shen'Dralar, these guys settles in Feralas and used their remaining juice to summon a magic rich Void Hound called Immol'thar to feed off of for the next millinium. They stayed night elf but their society collapsed because Ogres and demons fucked them over, leading to the raid Dire Maul in Vanilla WoW.

In cata some of the remaining living Shen'Dralar Highborne decided that it was time to leave their dead civilization and join greater night elf society and Tyrande allowed it, allowing night elves to be mages in WoW (and pissing off blood elves).

It wasn't the worst lore excuse for a new race and class option but it was pretty offensive to lore fags, probably the second worst next to Tauren "Sunwalkers" (Paladins).

>Undead priests

Alright, so if they want to heal someone do they cast cure or death?

Apparently they use the Light, which sears them and makes them feel great pain.

>(and pissing off blood elves).
Only until the blood elves noticed that they were novices with arcane magic, they're just waiting for them to fuck up so they can laugh at the night elves.

I never said other choices were ok. But having NE mages just solidifies that Illidan did nothing wrong. Whenever an NE Mage approaches Malfurion he should freak out and have them banished, considering he did it to his own twin brother, but he's suddenly OK with it.

Why can't Undead he priests? Honest question, I'm not super lore savvy. Couldn't someone have been a priest in their former life and it followed them into death? And priests are also known to deal in the shadows, doesn't that fit in with Undead?

Alright, so... Is there a lore reason for this? Because last time I checked, undead in Warcraft are basically the result of some evil anti-god and his legions of demons giving dark magic to people and making them raise an undead army to do their bidding. Or something.

Since we're talking about lore, isn't Starcraft and Warcraft almost the exact same basic story?

>Ancient, advanced civilization creates life (Xel Naga, Titans)
>One of the races they create are secluded, secretive, prone to in-fighting among factions and have knowledge of magics that other races don't (night elves, Protoss)
>One of the Titans/Xel Naga goes rouge
>Tries to take control of another race to fight for them (Undead/Zerg)
>That one edgy fucker you thought was the bad guy is a good guy all along and tries to stop the Undead/Zerg from killing everything (Illidan/Kerrigan)

The Malfurion should freak out whenever he sees a worgen, I guess? They are a druid curse, after all.

The Light is like the anti-undead-spray. The undead are unholy. Light is holy. When they harness it, or when the Light heals an undead, it's more like burning the wounds close than soothingly heal them.

wasn't that well the one the legion used to enter?

this

It all comes down to Malfurion and how everyone tacitly accepts his word as law because he's the Archdruid and Night Elves cling too much to Druidism for both rational and irrational reasons. When Malfurion banished Illidan, he had not been awake for a very long time compared to how long he had been hibernating. From Malfurion's point of view, Illidan was doing the exact same thing he had just done, and that was that.

And for those that don't understand why the Night Elves abhor magic despite it being so helpful in repelling the Legion:

Remember that the first visit from the Legion was a direct result of Azshara and her followers becoming greedy and obsessed with arcane magic and ending up as a beacon for the Legion to come to Azeroth. They literally invited and aided the demons in because they were retards that thought they could control them and gain more power of the arcane that way. So it makes a lot of sense that Night Elves have zero tolerance for arcane, and obviously fel, magic because when they see it, they see demons and resulting annihilation.

On the other hand, the Legion was likely going to come on its own one day, and in full force, as they were travelling throughout the Twisting Nether, and Azeroth apparently was like a beacon all its own because of its latent magical energies throughout the planet. So without Illidan and other night elves taking advantage of magic and showing possible ways to beat back the Legion, it's possible Azeroth would have been wholly unprepared and been destroyed.

Undead are created by dark, demonic magics though. Like...

I think the way it works was some orc shaman make a contract with a demon to gain power. When he was about to die, he sealed his soul into a block of ice and became the Lich King that sits upon the Frozen Throne. And the Lich King is behind the rising of the undead.

Undead are all unholy demon spawn. You literally had cultists as workers for the undead race in WC3 as well.

How come when you cast resurrection on an undead they don't turn back into a human?

Do you guys know any decently populated Vanilla/TBC server that is online?

I guess Ressurection magically shoves the person's soul or life force back into their body? So it wouldn't magically make an undead regain all muscle and skin and stuff, it just shoves whatever life force made them animate back into them again.

Books confirm Malfurion is a dick, even Maiv hates him.

>Undead priests
Undead are dark based, even in older lore. Holy hurts them and it was implied it forsook undead, as in they couldn't use it. The Shadowpriest spec was designed originally for forsaken priests and was intended to be their only spec before blizzard realized that would mechanically be limiting.

After that they ignored undead using the holy light as just game mechanics,l people kept asking the same question about it. They then claimed that undead can use the light, but it hurts them like cauterizing a wound. They still can't be pallies because pallies constantly surge with an aura of light.

Yes they are, and starcraft also borrowed from WoW for Amon, since Amon even had the same backstory pre-chronicles Sarg had including the "philosophical reasoning" part (old sarg made the legion because he concluded order was the unnatural state of the universe, post-chronicles Sarg is destroying order to prevent titans from being born). Amon wants to "end the cycle" for his own depraved ideology, just like old evil sarg.

This is not correct, friendo. Ner'zhul was a shaman tricked into obeying Kil'jaeden, a lord of the Burning Legion. Long story short, shit happens, he gets tricked, his body destroyed, his spirit put in Northrend. He was forced to obey the Burning Legion and create an undead army to prepare for the Legion's attack.

In lore, I think Forsaken are almost only Shadow Priests. Basically they're just a "dark" version of traditional priests, like Satanists or something, and they heal through dark mending powers. However, the devs have to let them be Holy and Discipline Priests and use their respective spells purely for gameplay purposes.

Then again, it seems like that's been retconned in the past several years as the writers seem to think it's funny to make them actually use the Light when they heal which, by their own words, causes them to taste and feel their own rotted flesh in addition to the immense pain. I guess being masochistic is in line with being a Satanist, but I think it's pretty moronic. I personally just stick with the idea they're all Shadow Priests/Menders in lore.

The rpg books detailed that undead have their souls glued to their bodies through unatural magic that couldn't be removed, so when they were restored to life the way their soul was attached was unscathed and they'd come back as undead.

RPG is no longer canon though so idk about now.

Illidan isn't, and never was a bad guy. That's the thing. Blizzard might have tried to make him a bad buy but anyone who has any lore knowledge thinks of Illidan as a good guy who did the right thing. Elves are just retards, Malfurion and Tyrande in particular are two of the most retarded and stubborn assholes in the game and lore.

Worst thing Illidan ever did was enslave the broken when he was in outland, that's it really.

Old spriests were worshipers of "the forgotten shadow" in the rpg book and vanilla flavor lore. It was implied to be related to the "old god under tirisfal" or something.

I guess since spriests now use pure void magic and void was linked to the old gods it's still canon.

Priests are still supposed to be the least canon class though,

>At this point he's rightfully upset and does make some bad choices
What bad choices? Everything his faction did wrong in TBC was done by Kael'thas and his goons going behind his back and Vashj just plain not giving a shit for the environment, then Maiev in her usual Illidan cocklust makes him guilty by association and then goes ahead and locks him up for no reason.

Necromancey is arcane based, or void based.

WoD implies it's void based because you can get zombies from just channeling void from a dead naaru into a corpse.

I guess old gods can make undead at will if they want now too since they're void based.

And the Fel Orcs. I mean he DID capture a demon and forced the Orcs to drain its blood to empower them. And he used them to attack Shattrath city.

He's not a bad guy but he sure as shit isn't a good one either. Everything he's ever done was motivated by purely selfish reasons. Some of his decisions just happened to benefit the world around him at the same time.

Illidan literally did NOTHING wrong.

Makes me wonder if it was more than a coincidence the Val'kyr were often found near saronite mines, the places where Yogg-Saron had influence. Sure, the Val'kyr were created by The Lich King from dead Vrykul, but I wonder if in the future Yogg-Saron will have learned how to make them through observation. Not to mention "Sara" in Ulduar turns into Val'kyr, though that could have just been a dev thing of reusing a model for gameplay purposes.

It's too damn bad the Nightmare didn't corrupt Malfurion so we could knock him off in a raid instead of Cenarius.

Fuck Malfurion.

Just makes me laugh so goddamn hard these days when i read this again.
>buh buh buh this magic is bad illidan!!!!!! can't you see???? it's chaos!
>arcane magic is literally the polar opposite of chaos, it is order and knowledge personified in magic form
>malfurion himself is completely obsessed with druidism and nature magic, making him the world's biggest hypocrite

This is true. When he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan, it wasn't for some altruistic purpose of saving Azeroth and its people. He honestly just thought it'd be cool to be supposedly omnipotent, or at least exponentially more powerful than anything on Azeroth, and actually, he primarily did it to impress Tyrande because he loved her and she didn't reciprocate.

It's hilarious, the wowpedia/wiki still cites that arcane is volatile and chaotic right after saying it's orderly and pure because of contradicting dev statements and the new book.

making arcane orderly has fucked a lot of shit up, especially after it's been dimension-shattering since forever (I.E netherstorm, the chaos elementals in the nexus, ect.).

How can blizzard recover?

>How can blizzard recover?
By ignoring the contradictions and moving forward

Blame everything on unreliable narrators

By getting a decent writer and rebooting everything.

This is the problem with having different people write a cohesive world and story together. It won't be cohesive.

This is also the reason I'm more and more okay with the movie the more I think about it. Yes, it's not faithful to the """"""""original"""""""". And that's a very, very good thing, because as much as I love wc3's story, it contradicts so much of what's previously established, and everything released after it contradicts it in a billion ways. You need to reboot the entire thing and keep the parts you want, while removing everything contradictory.

Misguided attempts to save his people. Working with Azshara and her forces at points in the war of the ancients. After the war he pours water from the well of eternity into one of the only clean water sources left effectively making it useless and just another found of magic that will lead to problems.

Hes right in some ways wrong in others he deserved to be imprisoned and face punishment but 10 thousand years is a bit fucking harsh.

He escapes Warcraft 3 happens he gets the skull of Guldan becomes more demonic.


The problem is in World of Warcraft they made it unclear what his motives were. It seemed like he was just crazy he didn't know if he was working for the legion or was working against them after failing to kill Arthas. He seemingly had become so paranoid he feared everything was out to get him so was hostile towards all of it. From my best understanding killing him in Burning Crusade is kind of a mercy to a guy whos fucking lost it because he thinks the world is out to get him.

But then legion retcons this because they admit they fucked up and Illidan was secretly training an army of Demon hunters and sending them out to murder demons and fight the legion. But the Illidan book which is canon because its setting up the retconned Illidan lore and explanation for what he was doing in BC makes him into a monster who fucking murdered half the player raid group and was enjoying murdering them all.

Can somebody seriously give me a good private server for this shit?

It's not like butchering the NE lore is something new to Blizzard, they've been doing it since WoW's creation.

>Male members of the sisters of Elune
>Female NE druids
>NE's siding with the Alliance who has races that uses Arcane magic with abandon

Don't the Night Elves outnumber the rest of the Alliance? You'd figure they wouldn't even need to join them or take orders from Varian.

Don't forget,
>The most xenophobic race in the history of ever allying with anyone

Orderly and pure when in small amounts, volatile, chaotic and destructive when in very large amounts.

The Nexus rift, Netherstorm, and Immol'thar's chamber are all places with high amounts of arcane energy, you don't see high amounts of arcane elementals just prancing around in the world outside of those places or mages just randomly blowing up when casting arcane spells.

>Malfurion is now a crazy druidism fanatic
Feels good man, never liked him. He was always portayed as this super good powerful elf who could do no wrong.

Still better then Green Jesus

>people still care about wow story after the fucked up LK story

>The most xenophobic race in the history of ever allying with anyone
How much do the NE even do with the rest of the Alliance? And Warcraft 3 kinda builds up the alliance. But sure, ignore ROC and TFT

>WE ARE ONE
>Nah, It's just me Arthas
Fucking hell.

>And Warcraft 3 kinda builds up the alliance
It doesn't, did you forget that Jaina and Theramore was technically neutral until Cataclysm?

>tfw no new being called LK
>no new faction in wotlk
>tfw wotlk was literally cut content the expansion

staghelm was corrupted by the old gods and there is no indication that malfurion didn't care about his people

Lets all remember the moment when Illidan trolled Sargeras into thinking that he is his ally and by getting a free power buff from Sargeras himself.

>How much do the NE even do with the rest of the Alliance?
They turned into retards so the spotlight can spend more time focusing on the only race that matters in the Alliance: humans.
See: that one MoP scenario where Tyrande behaves like an 8-year old as they hold out in Krasarang Wilds.

>technically neutral
And Switzerland is officially neutral. Doesn't matter that in a crisis they would ally with their neighbors.

>See: that one MoP scenario where Tyrande behaves like an 8-year old as they hold out in Krasarang Wilds.
Sounds just like Tyrande desu :^)
>HURR DEM NON ELVES WE HAVE TO KILL THEM ALL
>WAT? MY LOVE LIKES EM GUESS I LIKE THEM TOO NOW

Don't worry, they'll use some bullshit like Sargeras was expecting all this events to take place and gave Illidan that power so he could eventually use his body as a host while taking over Azeroth.

Last time I checked Theramore's neighbors are Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff.

These seroiusly have to be the most retarded weapons I've ever seen

>okay I want a sword
>but I also want to REVERSE GRIP a sword
>at the same time
>also a shield between them I don't give a fuck if I look like I'm holding some stupid gay bow for dumbasses
>also give me two of them

how the fuck are you supposed to even use them? with blades on both sides you can't really use one blade without the other getting in the way

>Last time I checked Theramore's neighbors are Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff.
Last time I checked Theramore got destroyed
>Magic, Undead people, Space aliens coming from other planets are ok
>WHAT? AN UNREALISTIC WEAPON? REEEEEEEEEEEEE

Night Elves are a bunch of faggots, this isn't news.

Well for one he bust out of his prison, consumed evil items and consorted with a race of twisted elf snake things. It's not like he was banished on ill terms with his brother, they understood that he was trying to help in his own way.

The only one with major beef with Illidan is Maev and she's fucking nuts.

I'm not hating them because they're unrealistic, I'm hating them because they look fucking stupid

>Kill Illidan in BC
>No reaction from Tyrande nor Malfurion
Why did he like these two again?

Val'kyr were actually created by Odyn.

>Its another "Hitler did nothing wrong XD" episode