Dungeon crawlers aren't real RPGs

>Dungeon crawlers aren't real RPGs
-Josh "The Cu-ckold" Sawyer

Is Sup Forums stupid enough to agree with this statement?

There's actually a lot of crpg retards that think like this.

is legend of grimrock the last hope for gaming?

I'd say Dungeon crawlers are RPGs, they're definitely more of an RPG than the Witcher series. :^)

Define RPG.

I prefer when RPGs aren't dungeon crawlers, but I wouldn't say dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs

grimrock would be better as turn based...
Casting in real time ruins the game

...

Blobbers are a garbage genre that has overstayed its welcome. It should have died for good the moment Fallout 1 was made, but I guess there will be always shit-eaters who will eat shit.

The only dungeon crawlers that have a right to exist are non-blobbers action dungeon crawlers like Vargant Story or Dragon's Dogma+BBI.

Wtf I've never even heard the term Blobber before.

That's because you're retarded and know nothing of the genre you supposedly like, dumbfuck.

How would you make a first person dungeon crawler then?

They are a separate genre, yes.

There's no reason why it should trigger you.

>How would you make a first person dungeon crawler then?
I would make it an action dungeon crawler where you control only one character. Like Skyrim locked in single person view with no open world and only dungeons to explore.

that sounds painfully boring, shift it sideways a little to Dark Messiah with just dungeon crawling (like the spider temple) and id buy it

I like dungeon crawling and killing shit better than WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

>Its not a true RPG unless it has shitty combat

Sadly this has been a sentiment since very early on in the industry

It was a fun game, final levels and the final boss was mediocre, is 2 any good?

You know why dungeoncucks want to associate their shit genre with RPGs? Because otherwise nobody would buy their shit games.

Mixing both of these genres together is retarded. Arcanum or Fallout have nothing in common with shit like M&M or Wizardry.

Words isn't the problem with JRPGs. In fact, that's one of the best parts of JRPGs.

The worst part of JRPGs is the dreadful, boring, tedious combat that takes up way more time than anything else.

dragons dogma is literally just mash attack to win, how in the fuck is this a better game than grimrock?

wasn't dungeon crawlers what RPGs was in the beginning?

>dragons dogma is literally just mash attack to win
>t. dungeoncuck who has never actually played DD

How about you show me a video of you soloing Daimon on hard to back-up your bullshit?

>how in the fuck is this a better game than grimrock
Because it's not a shitty blobber. That alone elevates it above garbage like Grimshit.

>I would make it an action dungeon crawler where you control only one character. Like Skyrim locked in single person view with no open world and only dungeons to explore.

>wasn't dungeon crawlers what RPGs was in the beginning?
Yes. Dungeon crawlers are the first attempts to make computer "RPGs", i.e. they emulate the dungeon crawling aspect of P&P D&D in computer videogames without having any actual roleplaying depth, because it was the best devs could do at the time.

Technology and videogame budgets have advanced greatly since then to the point where proper RPGs with actual roleplaying like Fallout can be made. There is no reason for dungeon crawlers to exist at this point, unless they have action gameplay elements.

>not shadow tower
you had one job

>Roleplay depth
Sure hope you aren't talking about those hamfisted dialogue choices that impact nothing and just amount to your character commenting on whats going on around him

>reposting the exact same thread 10+ times

>that impact nothing
Stop playing your shitty games and start playing actual RPGs like Fallout, dungeoncuck.

Is this shit actually good or is this a shit game that people reference because it has become a meme?

>playing fallout when you could play jagged alliance 2

Go prep your bull

>Puzzles involving clicking literally every tile in the room until you find the right one
No. I'm all for le old school is back meme like the next guy, but there's a reason some features arent seen in modern games

>thinking squad based tactics games or nipnog SRPGs are RPGs simply because they have stats
I bet you think dungeon crawlers are RPGs as well.

I'll never understand how people can take an interest in games with shitty modern settings

>Because it's not a shitty blobber. That alone elevates it above garbage like Grimshit.

good argument there m8, now care to explain why it is shit?

protip: beeing to hard for you dosent count

You forfeited your right to be taken seriously when you showed everybody here that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Let's be real for a moment, JA2 is a better RPG than both F1 and F2 combined.

even better argument! still havent told me why you think bad/shit or whatever.
This isnt even about if it is a rpg or not.

There's nothing to explain. If you think blobber combat mechanics with literally no depth are better than action combat mechanics, where you need to time your attacks, blocks and dodges, are better, you're a brain-dead mongoloid and any sort of discussion with you is utterly pointless.

>JA2
>better RPG
Nah. Better strategy though.

>it's a Sup Forums-throws-around-buzzwords-genre-titles-and-games-without-having-any-idea-what-makes-any-of-them-different-to-each-other episode

>JA2 is a better RPG than both F1 and F2 combined.
Now I'm thinking who's more retarded: you, or the OP.

>implying i ever said that DD is bad

senpai you need to read a bit more instead of just trying to get people upset please, you are embarrising yourself at the moment.

Neither is Pillars, Josh, neither is Pillars.

this.
controlling four characters simultaneously in real time is an unwieldy affair.

You've asked in your original post how DD is better than Grimrock and I've provided the answer: it has action combat mechanics, not shitty blobber mechanics with no depth where you just shit sparks all over your enemies from all four characters you don't even see and take hits in turn. Grimrock and blobber combat mechanics in general are too primitive to have a right to exist in this day and age, the only dungeon crawlers that can be good in this day and age are action dungeon crawlers and there are examples of such game, which have been provided in this thread.

RPG and dungeon crawler aren't mutually exclusive, but Rogue isn't an RPG.

except i didnt. i wanted your opinion why you think grimrock is a bad game, i mean its pretty dumb to just compare DD and grimrock, they are two diffrent games which play entierly diffrent

and ill just quote you now

You forfeited your right to be taken seriously when you showed everybody here that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

>they are two diffrent games which play entierly diffrent
Reread my post, I've spicifically mentioned DD+BBI for a reason. Both DD+BBI and Grimrock are dungeon crawlers, except one has action elements mixed in and is actually good and the other is literal archaic trash that should have died and stayed dead almost 20 years ago.

If you don't understand the basics of the shitty genre you pretend to care about, your shit opinion is even more worthless.

People dont compare things that are the fucking same retard. And even if they do, they do that so that they can see the differences easier.

Also, you're quoting ME and not the poster you just responded to, retard. Learn how to use an anonymous imageboard. Christ, you're like a monkey that never fully turned human.

i think you are confusing me and the user you first argued with, sorry for the missunderstanding

yeah ive never posted much, just been lurking, sorry bout that.

Grimrock 3 fucking when?

>real RPG

>RPG
>Role Playing Game
>Broad term
>Game with role-playing elements like character stats

>"LoG is not real RPG"
>LoG indeed has RPG elements

That's why, my children, one should think, before one makes an idiot of themselves.

Not soon enough.

I lost most of my progress playing Grimrock 2 and I sure as hell can't get the drive to start that shit again.

>here let me cherry pick the most difficult encounter i can think of to prove the game isnt 99% buttonmashing.

ok

doesnt change the fact the game is a buttonmasher

He's right, though. Dungeon crawlers often have RPG-like elements, but 99.9% of RPGs aren't dungeon crawlers and at least half of dungeon crawlers are not RPGs.

>neither an RPG nor a dungeon crawler
Wow, sure showed everyone (how retarded you are, that is).

>neither an RPG nor a dungeon crawler

I assumed Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup was a roguelike, is it not?

>you just shit sparks all over your enemies from all four characters you don't even see and take hits in turn

have you even played this genre? sitting there and taking hits is what an idiot would do, you are supposed to move around and position yourself. never heard of 2x2?

its almost like you dont know what the fuck you are talking about

It is. A bad one, but still a straight roguelike.

Have they even announced it?
If so im hyped as fuck.

Well then it is a dungeon crawler. Even if it's shit.

whats bad about it?

>roguelike
Not him, but it is. It can also be argued that all roguelikes are dungeon crawlers as well. Having an invisible party of 4-8 characters is not exactly a pre-requisite of a dungeon crawler, focus on dungeon exploration and combat is.

But roguelikes are defined by neither characteristic (the original rogue is a distant cousin to dungeon crawlers, though). Almost no roguelike is an RPG, and roguelikes that can qualify as RPGs are often not considered roguelikes (such as elona, TOME).

Shit balance, 0 character variance based on class, 3 gods basically dominate all choices, half the gods are borderline useless, encounter balance is fucked, levels are mostly shit, they keep removing content, etc.

>the original rogue is a distant cousin to dungeon crawlers

You are going to have to elaborate the fuck out of this.

people pretend to like it because fromsoft is "hip" right now

>they keep removing content
seemed to me like they mostly *replaced* content, a class gets stale, out it goes, in comes something else instead.

i havent played the game in a while, but my brother does, and last time i saw him play there was a fuckraft of new shit id never seen before.

>Almost no roguelike is an RPG
you are gonna have to have a pretty fucking amazing definition for RPG for this not to be the case.

and most people arent going to agree with it.

>soloing Daimon

Why do make it sound like it's hard?

>Almost no roguelike is an RPG
Are you freaking stupid?
You've got a character.
It has stats.
ROLE
PLAYING

If you tell me that Dwarf Fortress Adventure mode is not a roguelike RPG then you are truly mentally impaired.

Yes, not all roguelikes are RPGs, take Spelunky for an example.

if you can shift the label to action at all many pretend it isn't an rpg anymore

>Almost no roguelike is an RPG
You dun goofed m8

>You've got a character.
>It has stats.

That's not what roleplaying is retard.

they are more RPG than Skyrim but unlike Skyrim they aren't fun

it is in video games because no one bothered to make a more accurate term

The original rogue was formed framed as a dungeon crawling game, but it was really focused around procedural generation and instadeath. That's also why these are the properties (along with turn-based gameplay) that describe roguelikes, as opposed to dungeon exploration. For example, dwarf fortress, alien and owh are roguelikes but really can't be said to be about dungeon exploration.

You never play a role in a roguelike. You may or may not get a set of bonuses based on choices you can make in the dungeon, at best (be it from class selection or using various consumables or artifacts).
If roguelikes are RPGs, then so are FPSs - in most FPSs, you end up collecting guns (and possibly other kinds of equipment) as you progress through the campaign, and you can always choose which one to use. In many modern cases, you get points based on that which allows you to upgrade your equipment in some way.

>there's a shit in the hallway
>so lets leave it there because nobody bothered to clean it up

Fucking kill yourself.

Uh oh

sorry man its not my hallway

i just use it to walk to video games

It's good though.

The other King's Field games are okay

>it's only an rpg if it's boring as shit with an uninteresting setting and you need to use your imagination to make it bearable

This.

>it was really focused around procedural generation and instadeath

And this disqualifies it from being a dungeon crawler how? The "dungeon" namesake is just a texture user, don't get distracted by it.

Well you just slipped on the shit and made an ass of yourself.

>You never play a role in a roguelike.
you play a role in a whole lot of games that arent "roleplaying", if thats your only defninition of an RPG its a shit one.

in half life you play the role of gordon freeman, i wouldnt call half life an rpg.

dungeon crawlers have a load of elements from tabletop RPGs, inventory, stats, character levels, experience points etc etc. thats why it falls under the umberella.

To be an RPG there needs to be player interaction and player building. Player building does not mean "muh numbas!", it means that your character can canonically be a stone cold killer, a charismatic rogue, or a goofy troubadour. Character interactions must be non-trivial (buying shit from a merchant doesn't count, buying so much shit from a merchant that he offers you the opportunity to fuck his wife, does).

Direct upgrade imo

>doesn't think blobbers are rpgs
>thinks action jrpg garbage are rpgs

stay classy

I agree and I enjoy both genres immensely.

This thread is very entertaining.

Because by definition, dungeon crawlers are focused on dungeon crawling. It's not a hard fucking concept. By your logic, DQ and FF and rune factory are dungeon crawlers, too. After all, ultimately, you go through dungeons to reach the big bad and win the game. Just because dungeons are part of the setting doesn't a dungeon crawler make.

That's an aside with regard to rogue, but while more roguelikes have the same kind of settings than not, there are also shittons that don't give a crap about dungeons, and I've already listed some.

You're the only person in this thread retarded enough to think that the phrase 'playing a role' means being stuck on rails and forced to endure a role.

there are a total of zero(0) videogames that fit this criteria

Sure, except for every jrpg and crpg ever made as well as many trpg, among others.

>Because by definition, dungeon crawlers are focused on dungeon crawling

Jesus christ you retard, yeah by the definition of the WORDS taken away from the context, they are focused on "dungeon" "crawling", but when people are talking about games that share a common mechanical theme like the ones that dungeon crawlers have, they call them dungeon crawlers, and can understand what they are because they aren't a fucking casual retard like you.

Does Etrian Odyssey stop being a fucking dungeon crawler because a forest isn't a dungeon? Absolute brainless faggotry. Having wide open spaces like DQ, FF and ADOM doesn't stop them from being --mostly-- dungeon crawlers, though DQ and FF are egregiously shitty examples of them.

Persona is a dungeon crawler too, with a dating game tacked on as well. Same can be said for rune factory and the farming shit.

Oh you're just trolling. Well you sure got me, senpai.

>oh ur just trolling

Well that's one scumbaggy way of retreating from an argument. I like it.

>Shit balance, 0 character variance based on class, 3 gods basically dominate all choices, half the gods are borderline useless, encounter balance is fucked, levels are mostly shit, they keep removing content, etc.
Are we playing the same game?

DCSS has really good balance for a roguelike. At least it's one of the roguelikes where every single one of your deaths is your fault.

They also keep removing stuff like races that are "Human except mildly better" (just play a human).

I see you have never played the game.

I agree purely from a story perspective since most dungeon crawlers have very minimum plot. They are totally RPG from a gameplay perspective though because the have stuff like character progression

>3 hours in
>don't play for a month
>come back and my save is just gone

>3 hours

You do not know true pain.