Survival Games and Longevity

Maybe I'm just not the kind of person this type of game is aimed at, but why are games with no objectives so popular right now?

What's the draw of gathering materials or guns or whatever if there's nothing to DO with them?

You wander around the massive, empty map in DayZ, hoping to find a decent rifle and not get shot in the back of the head by someone you never saw, but then what do you do when you get it? Wander around some more and just try not to die. You gather sticks and rocks in Rust for hours so you can build a house and go kill guys and take their sticks and rocks, for what? To build a bigger stick and rock house?

Material grind doesn't count as gameplay. Activities like that should be what you do to gear up for the actual content. If when you get a good gun in DayZ, you could stand a chance in some sort of mission or dungeon or whatever, I could see the appeal, but as it is, you're just grinding for the sake of grinding.

If this is the kind of game you enjoy, please try to help me understand what it is that keeps you playing past a couple hours.

answer is simple; autism

it should be obvious that minecraft made this genre popular.

while the genre is ok, it attracts casuals because they don't need to worry about an objective, just "do what they want"

for example my one friend playes a lot of these. but when in a game like forest there are enemies which add challenge he just disables them.

It is fun if you have a team.

Building up a base, getting through tech trees, establishing a self sufficient home.

But the tihng about games like rust is there is really no resources scarcity or exclusiveness.

There aren't separate islands with different stuff that results in different aesthetics when making gear. It's just everyone building the same stuff with resources everyone has access to. There isn't even restrictions on your character that owuld make it so your little settlement NEEDS a farmer or a hunter or a builder.

One person can build a massive tower and stock it with everything they could ever need and once he does this or a group does this what is there to do now?

There is no end game or looming threat from the environment.

All there is to do is fuck with other people. Part of what makes rust so cancerous is that once you're set up you don't need anybodies help, you can socialize globally already so you don't need neighbors for that. The only possible interaction left is trolling so that is what people do.

All of them devolve into a kill on sight deathmatch game that takes longer to obtain a weapon.

Depends on the game.

I played thousands of hours of DayZ Epoch because there were dedicated groups on the server. You ended up having these wars between factions, finding their bases, planning a raid, stealing as much as you could from them, building your own bases, or bases/outposts around the map.

Every survival game I've played since then has bored me to tears. DayZ standalone is especially disappointing.

Rust was fun for a while, but there's absolutely zero creativity allowed when it comes to base building.

It's because they are just like real life. You get to make up your own purpose or story and when you die, it's over. Didn't matter if you were king of the island or not. You're just dead.

>you're just grinding for the sake of grinding.
yes

theres no endgame to any of these games, you gather your shit, the best shit in th game now you roam around to kill others with the best shit in the game to gain nothing since both of you hit the item ceiling

this whole genre is cancer, whats even worse is the abomination called battle royale games that the survival games spawned, which are just huge deathmatch games with a RNG gathering items mechanic

Exploration is fun, crafting gives you a sense of progression, and most of the popular Survival games have a strong PvP aspect (often with a thrilling corpse looting risk aspect)

I bought Astroneer on a whim the other day, and I'm feeling this sentiment pretty hard. You slurp shit up with your gun, build tethers so you can wander further, build the three or four base modules, build a shuttle, jump to another place on the planet, or to another planet, and then you just... Do it again. Different planets don't even have different materials to gather.

I know it's still in early access, but I can't see it becoming much more than a pointless grind.

>Every survival game I've played since then has bored me to tears.

Have you tried Ark? The core game is whatever, but the amount of gameplay / map mods is staggering

I can see the appeal of that type of deathmatch though. When all you have is non-stop action, your mind becomes numbed to it. In something like DayZ you have lots of lows before the highs, you're just wandering around looking for beans when all of a sudden you come under fire and shit gets real.

It's a nice change of paces from something like CoD or BF where it's all highs with no lows.

my guess is it's fun for people when they can drop a couple hundred dollars of mommy and daddys money to be the guy with the machinegun camping the new players spawn

I almost bought Ark until I saw this.

>Early Access
>Already has DLC

No way I'm supporting that under any circumstance.

>Astroneer

It's Early Access and it only just came out, so it's extremely light on content.
Also it sounds like it's meant to be more co-op than a lot of survival games (where the best thing to do is split up and divide up tasks), but I might be wrong on that

Yeah that's kinda shit, they've been Early Access for years; it's just a way for them to avoid the criticism of being a "finished game" that still has shitty optimization and the like.

Also that expansion is BASICALLY just a community mod with a bit more polish, I'd wait til it goes on a 50% sale or better anyway

I agree, the lack of story or objectives is what keeps me out of them. They can't all be like EVE Online, which successfully has PvP competition creating conflicts and motivation.

What would get me interested in these open-world survival-crafting games if if they'd take a page from Dwarf Fortresss and procedurly generate NPC populations, history, and so on when you start a new map. You and your friends would have a reason to go adventuring, solve quests, gather resources, and eventually fight the enemy, and compete with other players who are trying to do the same thing, instead of just building a cool fort and defending from raids forever.

If it is meant to be cooperative, there isn't currently really anything to do with a buddy. I had a friend join me, and nothing really changed. We still just poked around and gathered rocks and laid tethers, but now there were two of us.

For me they combine my favorite things, Crafting, base building, and exploration. I really like this genre in theory, but the fact that all of them are buggy messes stuck in early access hurts it pretty bad.

I think Ark is the best of them, but at this point its pretty clear the devs just want more money instead of fixing the awful combat rubber banding and stiff gameplay.

>which successfully has PvP competition creating conflicts and motivation.

Uh that's exactly what drives these games, the successful ones at any rate (DayZ, Rust, Ark, etc)

Ark actually has an NPCs mod kind of like what you described but it's only just starting out and I'm sure it'll be hampered by the engine

What you basically want is Cubeworld but not dead

Some people just want to jump right into the meat of the game, and see how long they can keep going. It's like playing for a high score - if you are into that kind of thing, you are really into it.

That said I have never once played a game BECAUSE it had a goal. I play games because I think they are fun, and you don't need a strict goal for that. Otherwise, why would anyone replay anything they have already beaten?

>but the fact that all of them are buggy messes stuck in early access hurts it pretty bad.

The thing I don't understand is, the whole craze started when DayZmod got really popular on youtube. All of a sudden everyone wanted to get in on these "hardcore" survival games.

So all these companies popped up trying to capitalize on the trend, and made nothing but stupid bullshit that had nothing of what people liked from the mod versions of DayZ. Even DayZ standalone completely missed the point.

Then you have shit like The Division where I'm 99% sure they started off with "oh shit DayZ is popular, make a survival game" but by the time the game released they switched to "oh shit Destiny is popular, make a fucking piece of shit that tries to merge the two"

Developers have just gone full fucking retard and can't focus on anything anymore.

>If this is the kind of game you enjoy, please try to help me understand what it is that keeps you playing past a couple hours.
The problem is not the genre the problem the devs are shit

Those game end game usually revolves around PVP if they don't have anything for the players to generate their own game within the game then its shit

Most devs just go through a checklist they don't do any design so the game ends up being a huge area with bunch of nothingness

its the same problem AAA open world games have they design a single player game in a huge map not a real open world game

>Otherwise, why would anyone replay anything they have already beaten?
I don't quite agree on you there.
Sometimes, the core gameplay element of a game can be the big attraction itself (ie. beating old scores in Tetris), but quite a huge chunk of even the more "simple" games (ie DooM) do give you things to look forward to, even simple goals.

I don't find all games "fun", and some games I don't exactly play because I'd seek "fun" exactly either. For example, I've played Silent Hill some 30+ times already, and it is yet to get boring. It's basic starting point and context give the player a fairly simple goals: find your daughter, and get the hell out.

Those "goals" more or less remain as the baseline carrot to play the game, because they signal there being an actual point when the game is finished, but the continuous playthroughs are encouraged with both practical gameplay features (alt. endings, unlockables....) and numerous "less practical" details that one can find / realize the true meaning of only on continuous playthroughs.

Anyway, all this prologue leads to why I very much love STALKER, the game series often hailed as the "beginning" of these first-person open-world survival games, yet often get bored / don't even get interested in shit like DayZ, Ark, etc: STALKER has goals. It has a story, mission objectives, lore to unravel. You're not just "surviving for the sake of survival", you're surviving in order to push forward in the game's world and story - at your own pace and ways though.

It's popular for the same reason other mainstream games are popular. It's easy to get into and people are usually invited by friends that were also invited by their friends. You don't need to spend much time to get on the same level as other people and can learn the gameplay in a few hours tops. Also, these people instantly get a feeling of belonging, since they probably play with friends or a group that their friends were a part of. With all these positive motives and the premise of doing "crayyzeeh trolling" with your friends after a bit of so called teamwork, these kind of games tend to be popular.

At least with ark you can autistically grind for cool dinosaurs and then make houses made of metal or some shit
that game is too grindy though, the only way I can play it is with the rates cranked up x10

Maybe it's the feeling of hard work or stealing someone's else's work the appeal on these kind of games

the reason a game like ark is so popular is that people literally live ark

the game has a gigantic sense of community with the way the tribe and server based gameplay system works, and encourages an enormous sense of trust which practically forces players to have to like each other to work effectively

the base building, and use of dinosaurs (vehicles/weapons), and resource gathering ultimately goes toward the main point of the game, which is pvp, base building/defence and dominance. Without at least 2 of those factors in a survival game, I can't imagine it being enjoyable for a long period of time, as a survival game exclusively focused on base building or just pvp would get boring fast

Also, don't play ark, it's a gigantic timesink of regret

no the point of the game is to make your own game the work you put makes it feel more important and you get more attatched to the character and at the same time thats how its supposed to be, if anyone could make anything in an instant the game would be boring and there would be no need to do a whole lot of stuff

The problem with these games is that they are usually poorly designed

The attraction of these games is "free play", but still within a structured set of rules.

Consider the games of pretend children engage in (or perhaps used to engage in - you could say these games are a great surrogate for playing outside in the no-longer-existing backwoods of surburban America), or playing with LEGO - the attraction is in the complete lack of structure.

you have shit taste in friends

>tfw literally started ARK again today. NAServer 240 on xbone.

Im scared anons. I just built my raft though


Deep down you know ark is the greatest game ever. I can write a book with all the shit that happened on 384.

The crows. Red talon. USMG. Olympis. Spear Chuckers.

For being only single player at the moment, Subsistence looks slightly promising. The npc hunters that spawn after a while and build bases is a neat idea. Rust is fun for me but I wish it had more stuff to do that involves interacting with things that isn't other players.

Th problem is usually there's nothing to actually work for.

In DayZ mod version you could slowly build up your base, make camps, even take over a warehouse and stockpile vehicles in it. Whatever, you could make your own goals.

I played one map, Tavianna, that happened to have two construction sites joined together, making it the best place in the game to gather vehicle parts. A group of players came in and reinforced the fuck out of it, turning it into a trade post using all those car parts to get the ball rolling. Even in vanilla you would see trade posts pop up which were basically huge thick fields of barbed wire and tank traps closing off an area, with some Ural trucks stuck inside for storage.

In standalone you're fucking lucky if you can find a single tent. Once you have a good gun and a large backpack, the game is essentially over, there's nothing you can hope to work towards, or build. So it devolves into shooting random people for no reason, because you know they don't even have anything you need to loot from them, since you need fucking nothing.

Maybe that's why Minecraft is still running strong. For all it's faults, it lets you work towards building whatever you want. Meanwhile in, say, Rust, even though it has building, your options for building are extremely limited, and it's extremely easy for someone to C4 their way into your base unless you build in a very specific way to stop these intrusions, which kills creativity. In comparison, my bases in DayZ Epoch were usually in tiny barns that looked not even worth bothering with from the outside, but were stacked to the roof with loot on the inside, purely because I wanted the convenience of not having to bother with lots of doors. Take away those options and you have nothing.

It's not about not having an objective, it's about making your own objective.

... even buying it at a discount encourages this shitty behavior from developers.

So essentially what i said. They don't give the players anything to make their own game

The answer is - and always is - modded STALKER. All the shit you find has an actual use because there are things to kill.

>mfw none of these MP survival games have good combat

not one.

Tarkov looks like it will be good.

Hey! I posted that picture earlier! I'm glad it's being used as a reaction image! IT DESERVES IT GOD DAMN I HAVE LIKE 200 MAX PAYNE REACTION IMAGES AND I'M ALWAYS AFRAID TO USE THEM FOR SOME REASON

FACT:
You dislike these types of games because you have no friends to play them with (the entire thing which makes them fun.)

Do you not remember when WoW was the hot game and everyone tried to make an MMO to compete for those WoWbux?
And then COD?
And on and on forever and ever?

By the way, just in case you thought grafics fags were a new thing

>I posted that picture earlier!

Did you just emerge from your 20 year cryo-nap?

You both need a third friend. Tri-co-op. Then it really opens up.

No I'm one of those strange people who collects images but never uses them.

Same shit with Don't Starve Together, it's fun for few hours and then you just idle for skins and don't give a shit about that game anymore.

Some people like to actually play games.

I mean think about it. When an adult hands you a toy does he say what your object with the toy is or do you use your imagination? Would you prefer if an adult would give you objectives with toys?
>heres a doll billy, now go put dresses on it and pretend its you after the hormones you faggot retard

This is so fucking true it's not even funny anymore.

Every single 'survival' game I've played in the last few years has had the absolute worst 'combat' I've ever seen.

Ark is garbage.

Rust is garbage.

7 Days to Die is garbage.

DayZ is garbage.

There's a few more I've honestly totally forgot about because they were so worthless, the only, and I cannot stress this enough... the LONE thing that makes these even remotely tolerable is playing it with friends. At least then you can all experience the garbage together like watching a shitty movie.

what first person game has good combat?

Thats because those games are designed with survival first and actual gameplay second. Do it the other way around and you'll have a game that is much better to play even if it lacks the million different types of sea crab.

>no handholding
>no cinematic scripted gameplay
>real penalties for death
>have to actually work for your fun

This will trigger Sup Forums a lot, but survival games are probably one of the few genres that are the least touched by pleb and casual influence. Your hand will not be held, you don't get told what to do, there are no carebear rules, you have to make it on your own. They stand in stark contrast to most modern games that way. The only reason Sup Forums hates them is because they are popular, have shit communities, and a lot of them are shitty early access shovelware, so Sup Forums gets all uppity about them and feels the need to shit on them.

Basically, they're the closest to the golden age you can get nowadays, casuals hate them and neo/v/ whose first MMO was WoW will hate them too, but that's just how it is. They are the closest we can get to roguelikes, good non-carebear MMOs (e.g. Ultima Online), and just non-casual dumbed down games of old.

DayZ mod for me was being in an atmosphere, it was like STALKER, especially with the music. Your goal was to survive, and with other players you are on edge while trying to do that. You make a run for food or supplies, but you maybe get sniped, or zombie happens to land just the right hit and break your leg and make things very harsh.

It was a series of taking calculated risks, in what became a great horror atmosphere. I'd been familiar with Chernarus having played about 300 hours of ARMA 2 first, but adding the music and adding the apocalyptic touches put it on par with STALKER as far as eerie and spooky settings go.

Honestly, I don't think another survival game has really matched up to what the DayZ mod was, outside of maybe The Long Dark to match it's atmosphere and sense of inevitability.

Forest has somewhat decent combat

I always thought the Epoch basebuilding was cancer, at least the type where you build a 4 story block with a helipad and electronic locks.

The sort of stuff where it was just some tents and vehicles under watch and hidden in the woords, or where someone just boarded up a house or building is the sort of stuff I wanted to see, but it's a fine line because there's a point where it's no longer surviving, it's thriving and then there's no point to the game once the tension about that is gone.

>none of these MP survival games have good combat

DayZ mod. Standalone is better than most but the mod is superior in terms of fights. Combat is super tense and harsh, fire fights in DayZ were the most heartpounding adrenaline rush.

I think the Forest had the best balance for open world sandbox as well as having objectives and milestones that are pretty fun to do.

Forest's combat really reminded me of Dead Island/ Dying Light albeit a bit more clunky.

This pretty much.

You could make this argument about life in general? Why go to work to make more money than the absolute minimum to survive? Becayse you want nice new things or upgrades to your current things

Same thing in these games you work towards upgrades to gain power

Don't forget probably the most interesting AI there is in videogames. Where else can you have literal staring contest with enemies?

autism, its a great driver of wasting time in game.

Those are problems with MP survival games. If you want decent survival games you need to go SP like Unreal World or DDA Cataclysm

All time spent gaming is time wasted.

The only decent single player survival game around is The Long Dark.

There's good MP survival games, SP survival games are also mostly trash, especially since they take out one of the most dangerous threats around, other people. AI isn't good enough to match them yet, with that same sense of tension and pathos associated with playing against or with others.

Have they updated it over the last months? The last I heard from TLD it was empty. You could only run around, search for ressources and buy yourself some shack / find a shack (can't remember which one).

As for the most dangerous threat. As soon as you get good in a MP survival game and have friends who help you, death becomes meaningless.
Wow, you got shot by someone and lost everything. Well, get back to your camp and you can restock. In SP you die you loose. Managed to survive for (ingame) years with a cozy home, the best weapons and experience out your ass? On well placed shot from an enemy and you're just as dead, but you will never get anything back. Except you are a pussy and made a copy of your save

Those 4 story blocks are an eyesore to be sure, but they're the easiest to raid, only idiots build them.

The best base is the base unknown.

It's kinda an abstract thing OP. If your day consists of constantly being around others and pressured to perform, do some work, meet to someone elses standards to keep your job/get through a course, your burned by the end of the day. And somedays you might feel too burned to play something serious. Its a tedious grind but its pure escapism and in a weird way meditation. Take MMOs with pointless grinding to get better gear that ultimately doesn't matter. I kinda see why people play mindless grinds/atmospheric type games. You don't really do it all the time but you get those feels to play something with mindless grinding.

Or if your a NEET you might meet others in an online grinding game and get social contact without the anxieties and pressures of real contact with someone.

It's the PVP aspect that attracts most people. The fact that it's open-ended means you can approach someone from any direction you want unlike most competitive online games. Unfortunately the netcode in these games are always shit. Me, I like crafting and stalking other players without letting them know I'm there though one time I was creeping on this fort and the two guys running it crept on me instead and we just whirlpool swung at each other for a minute until I died.

>Wow, you got shot by someone and lost everything. Well, get back to your camp and you can restock.

Assuming the camp hasn't been cleared out already and your other friends somehow managed to survive.

Mount and Blade.

Still, it all boils down to death being (almost) meaningless