Can a JRPG be difficult?

Can a JRPG be difficult?


how?

>All those different facial reactions

I love games that do this with their dialogue boxes

Sure. Poor UI, confusing plot, internally inconsistent characters, bad controls.

>JRPG
>difficult
Define these terms first.

Justin.. YOU PERVERT

Yes, the same way games like Wizardry IV can be difficult.

Playing Ar tonelico 2 at the moment, the battle system is actually one of the more difficult ones I've played when it comes to turn based games since you have to manually time guards/parries, as the game is designed to force you to do so since otherwise you'll take way too much damage. Too pussy to play on hard mode though.

can't grind away the difficulty

ignoring / hoarding items
it instantly makes 99% of rpg's better
or make grinding not an option
I notice alot of people claim alot of games are more difficult than xyz because you cant outlevel your current content by slaving away for hours

The more any JRPG relies on player input over pure stat manipulation, the more difficult and engaging it becomes.

See: Monster Hunter, Ys.

Crimson Shroud

It has no levels and there's almost no gear to grind. You learn new skills but that only gives you more elements for combos and not straight out more damage

CC is extremely easy though. Sprigg murders the fuck out of Miguel because of her insane autoattack damage and can tank HolyDragSwd to the face with no issue as long as the field isn't pure white.

Make every encounter a life or death situation. Only JRPGs I've seen do that right was DDS1/2 on hard, where you can get beat into the ground the second the enemy gets a turn, and Enchanted Arms, that balanced the game around being at full health at the start of every fight.

Dario is optional I know (and you can manipulate him of course), but that Chronopolis guard robot right after you get Serge back gave me trouble a couple times

hey guys

Borgan

Just be a JRPG

That shit's fucking difficult to want to play, every time

Depends, in a lot of them difficulty can just mean time invested in grinding. Ar Tonelico 2 has a system in which you must time button presses to block and avoid damage so that relies more on skill than time invested, I never finished the game but it wasn't too hard from what I remember.

That's really about it and it's really not *that* hard to deal with.

I wish more JRPGs made grinding only be used to unlock side-grades, not upgrades, the problem is that almost every JRPG can be beaten by having higher numbers

>JRPG
A role-playing video game made in Japan.
>difficult
A word used to describe something that requires a high amount of skill and effort.

Crimson fucking Shroud

What a great game.

Except you're wrong, there's plenty of gear to grind, in fact, melding is a key aspect of the game. It does allow the player to experiment a whole lot with different builds, but even so, the first time you play through Crimson Shroud, you have to learn the combat mechanics and dice-stacking so that you can play through the new game plus like a fucking champ and unlock the second half of the entire dungeon map.

there are plenty of games that hand out powerful items and actually require you to use them on what appear to be mundane enemies

the entire roguelike genre is build around this

its just that many a jrpg is way to liberal with its items

>tfw beating grandia at level 43ish
>you will never get to level 99

By limiting the amount you can grind, and making bosses more reliant on predicting their patterns or defusing their strategies that healspanking them.

This is also good.

One/two difficult parts does not a difficult game make.

that's something I never got about rpg's in general

why some people continue to level grind after already having defeaten the final boss
you've already overcome the biggest challenge, getting stronger just makes that challenge weaker

If you have to balance dps with healing in varying ways during the fight, whilst dealing with status effects and canceling or otherwise dealing with special attacks from the boss through defending or using some defensive skill at the right time, or making sure you have the right buffs, preventing the enemy from becoming too buffed, and so on, it can be challenging. If the boss is just 'do your most damaging attacks whilst occasionally healing' for the whole fight, which is 90% of all JRPG boss fights, then no, it won't be challenging.

Another way is if there's environmental stuff you can use to your advantage. I remember Grandia had this system where you could reposition around the battle area but the bosses were so easy you rarely had to. Having to be mindful of lots of different variables at once is the only challenge JRPGs offer, so the fact so few games make use of space in this way is disappointing.

It was an example of how to make a game difficult, but it's still just a weird bandaid because the game is balanced around you getting stat ups after each boss that makes you strong enough for the next one

...

Because to some people, maxing out characters or making "perfect" builds is very satisfying.

Plus, sure they've beaten the final boss, but have they beaten the final boss with only one character?

Because they really like the game and don't want to stop playing it.

Grinding fights like a retard instead of fighting strategically? You'll make the game unwinnable.

Dying because you're a scrub and not because you exploited the generation mechanic? It won't make it unwinnable but it will make it a hell of a lot harder.

Not getting high spell levels, good techs, and decent weapon skill levels for your next generations? Same thing.

Not making sure to research combo magic and new equipment as it's available? You better believe that'll fuck you over.

Nocturne on Hard Mode.
It's absolute bullshit at the very beggining, and becomes a good, but fair challenge after a few hours if you actually get good at the combat and fusion system.

And then you there's the endgame, where Demi-Fiend has become absolutely godlike and you just destroy everything in your way.

>why some people continue to level grind after already having defeaten the final boss
Skinner box or also a need to get a meaningless completion satisfaction even if the road isn't fun at all. In a lot of games is little more than a waste of time but seeing numbers increase makes some people feel like they achieved something.

Man, i had to cheese with the casino so hard to beat Enchanted Arms.

Maybe I'm dense, but I can't tell if she was actually upset. the blushing portrait makes me question it

Any game where your strength is determined by the amount of time you've spent grinding rather than your skill is easy. JRPGs are baby mode.

I agree, in that if every boss fight in CC was like Miguel, that game would have been lauded as a masterpiece. But I feel most games fall into the trap of "Make the super tough guy tough, ignore everything else"

>Two black innate characters.
>Pure white innate field.

That's less difficulty and more a really shitty player.

Who is this qt?

A lot of rpgs have extra bosses that require being 99 to

I just want to nominate The Last Remnant for this category. You need to read hundreds of pages of material to even fathom a 5th of what the fuck is going on mechanically.

You need the extra damage that two black innates give you, and isn't the point of some bosses to overwhelm the field by cheating and taking extra turns?
haven't played CC since I was 14 though

They don't think it be like it is, but it do

I'm not memeing when I say this:

FFVIII had the idea and obviously fell flat on the execution:
>Just grinding wont take you anywhere
>Hell, grinding will make it HARDER
>You have to get creative and use the game's systems to actually get your power going

But like I said they didnt balance it out and its extremely easy to break it with the junctions.

SMTs are a bit like that but the grinding is still present so...

Because the final boss is never the hardest enemy in the game, user.

In all honesty, I think JRPGs can remain difficult if they continue to add interesting folds to their gameplay, or having characters interact with certain enemies in certain ways. One of the best parts of Paper Mario is figuring out how certain enemy properties can be exploited against others, like Koopas having shells, some enemies having spikes or wings, or how some enemies can buff themselves or change positions. Then, the game's difficulty comes from how efficiently you approach each battle, not how you can just keep slapping yourself against enemy encounters.

then I'd consider those to bet he final boss

I'm talking about people grinding beyond the most difficult boss

We already have a thread for this

TLR is still a lot easier than the games it's based off of, even though its crafting system is fucktarded.

It was weird that they had in the leveling mechanic but punished you for using it. I haven't played anything past 8 though, but it has by far the worst most convoluted complicated for no reason story

JRPGs being difficult is usually tied to being lower leveled/not knowing about what is OP.
In jrpgs with RNG encounters, I barely do half of the fights in them since I tend to flee, so I usually end up having my ass handed in the late game. If you fight most of the encounters you get while progressing, you're more than likely to walk though everything.

Just recently finished BoF4 and I was underleveled as fuck when I entered the capital, and the final fight was pretty difficult.

So yeah it can be, you just have to gimp yourself, which sucks t b q h.

FFVIII's system is ultra shit because you have no idea where you're supposed to be in power at any given moment and it's REALLY easy to become overpowered as fuck.

One of the best parts of PM is the strategy that comes from knowing exactly how much damage you'll do.

I can't decide which is more annoying
>random encounter every few steps, can beat them in one or two rounds, and menus aren't quick
or
>uncommon random encounters so you have to waste a lot of fucking time running back and forth to level up again to try and beat the boss you just lost to

Giving fights unique mechanics rather then rely on BEIG numbers. It becomes difficult to do because players presented with any challenge in a rpg will just grind rather then use their head. Unless mechanics are in place to punish over grinding which at that point everyone bitches and moans see Last Reverent and as mentioned, Dragon Quarter.

This sounds like my kind of game, always wanted to get into SaGa if anything just for the music, when I finish the new digimaz game coming out I'll give it a go.

>Game starts out challenging
>Once you get about 10 hours in the difficulty snaps into tiny little pieces and you steamroll everything that gets in your way until the ridiculous postgame superboss.

Every Atlus game ever.

>playing Grandia II when I was younger
>Melfice shows up and destroys my ass
>feel proud as fuck when I beat him


>playing it now
>literally counter play him perfectly, cancel his attacks, and finish him off like he's nothing
>feel nothing

fuck

The games doesn't punish you for levelling up; levelling up actually opens up better magic, limit breaks and weapons that keeps your party on par with the enemies (or rather, makes you even more overpowered, as it is almost impossible not to break that game and it hurts my brain to think that some people actually think it's hard) and gives you more options in combat. The game just punishes you for not learning it's systems and trying to play it like a traditional JRPG.

This, so much.

Fuck, I love PM. Time for a replay.

Except SMTIVA
>Starts easy as fuck
>They actually give you a dedicated healer, the madmen
>Gets a bit more difficult, each new partner essentially helps break the game harder and harder
>Get to final dungeon
>Anus implodes

While it was annoying when I was younger, and I min-maxed to equip the most badges I could (not to mention they're games meant to be beaten by children) nowadays I try to keep hp/fp even and use less badges.
adding more restrictions makes your build more creative, rules make games fun. maybe if you increased you BP by 1 or 2 each time instead of 3, or a smaller level cap. you'd have to build properly to beat something, and switch tactics
also I used to hate not being able to just use and abuse one build or one weapon in a game. if it didn't cover every encounter, it was useless. couldn't stand weight limits and shit, now it's fun

That's still pretty unclear to me (what exactly defines a "role playing" game? Certainly not role playing), but I'll assume that just means "JRPGs are games commonly considered JRPGs".
Look into action JRPGs like bloodborne, where you need reflexes and tactics to overcome bosses, and tactical JRPGs like Fire Emblem where you need to think about resource management and unit positioning while planning out long sequences of actions. They don't really require a HIGH amount of skill and effort but they do require some degree of skill and effort so consider it a proof of concept; a JRPG CAN be difficult if those things are expanded upon.

Your telling me Apoc stops being shit? I got to the second Shesha fight expecting at least SOME resistance but fucking nothing happened.

Is IV:A any good? I played SMT 4 and it was awful, the mechanics were terrible compared to previous games and just like Nocturne any boss battle was just trial-and-error and buff-spamming

These new style JRPGs like dark souls just seem so young compared to the decades of turn based ones, I can't come to terms of them both being the same genre. Seiken Densetsu 3 seems like an old version with active combat but also stats and classes and techniques. Not that I ever got further than having all 3 characters meet

I'm planning on doing a Mage-Mario run with Tank Bobbery for my next playthrough. Either that, or tank Ms. Mowz or Koops.

SMT in general has an inverse difficulty curve.

About 5 or so hours after the second Shesha fight things get real, once they stop giving you partners and partner buffs. The final 20-25ish hours are big-ol-boss rushes, and the last three or so bosses are butt-sweat-inducing.

It essentially takes all the flaws of SMTIV (bland characters, shitty smirk implementation) and fixes them.

>Metatron lol

pff ez

>Metatron HORDE

fuck

>they become random enemies

Whats it like being a heathen?

why the fuck did nothing come from the Hawk/Lise romance subplot? It still hurts.

That's racist.

It's pretty easy all the way through. Apocalypse difficulty seemed tough at first because of the miss rate, but just like 4, after a short while you just rape everything unless your party has lots of the wrong weaknesses. The final boss is kind of tough at least.

Etrian Odyssey is pretty consistent all the way through, except for III and IV because subclassing is just mad broken.

Posting in a rare Grandia thread.

IV makes up for it for a god-tier final dungeon

SMT games are generally challenging.

Romancing SaGa 2's "difficulty" is completely overblown. People make it sound like the game is unfair, but it's actually really well designed and all the game mechanics fit together well. The game will never be unwinnable if you "grind like a retard", in fact the game only gets easier as you level up. Dying because you're a scrub has no penalty, it works really well actually because you can make a new team that's better suited for the boss or area you died to. Combo magic doesn't require a generation skip to research, only a black screen, so you can put it off for your final emperor if you want.

I just picked a popular recent example but action JRPGs have been a thing since forever. E.g. Falcom's Dragon Slayer and Ys.

Bosses scale with you (up to a certain point), skill based dodge system like M&L. In addition, make bosses require active use of debuffs, party buffs, status ailment spells, and proper positioning to beat. Radiant Historia has a fairly challenging battle system that could be great with some balance tweaks.

every JRPG is hard...
to sit through

Ys Book I and II have a level cap and some items that negate the massive amounts of damage the final boss can deal against you, but aside from that, you gotta beat him using skill and dodging yourself.

You'll still never beat it if you're a shitter, which is kind of the point.

>Combo magic doesn't require a generation skip to research, only a black screen, so you can put it off for your final emperor if you want.
R&D takes a black screen to complete but you can't begin the next research phase until the current shit hits the shops, and that takes a generation change.

It definitely does require more thought than the average JRPG (formations alone play a huge role) but I don't know about that. Maybe I'm overestimating "shitters" but I think anyone could beat it with some grinding. Remember, quicktime and reviver exist.

That's true, but I feel like you get plenty of gear from chests so that's not really critical.

It's 3:30AM and I can't be arsed to argue in detail but I can't let this slide
>It essentially takes all the flaws of SMTIV (bland characters) and fixes them.

SMT IV:A's characters are 100% dogshit apart from Gaston. They are all very bad tropes, with zero character development apart from a power up speech. Who are constantly sucking Nanashi's dick. Hoy boy beats all of them easily.

There are people who think FFVI and VII are too hard. You're vastly underestimating how bad retards are at JRPGs.

>Want to play RS2
>Those controls
>Shitty 90's tier translation
Why did they even bother?

>This fag again
No video game is hard

Just wait for the vita version.

yes it is

It's not like most WRPGs are hard either. Without fail, you end up OP midgame.

Yes what is?

Gaston and Dagda are awesome. Compared to SMTIV's ONE good character, I'd say they easily doubled the amount of good ones in Apocalypse. Sure, the characters are stereotypical as fuck, but even the enemies are cooler in Apocalypse.

F-Zero GX

It was hard for a racing game, only remotely hard part was the last mission against what-his-fuckface

>SMTIV's ONE good character

The Terminal guard guy?

Try Ys Oath in Felghana in Nightmare/Inferno mode.

The good thing is that you at least hear awesome music while you die a million times.

Is there a good undub?

this, basically
any hard game will have someone go "it is easy once you have already beaten the game, know what to do, trained/grinded for 999 hours etc"

t. only plays shallow turn based combat JRPGs