I've been wondering this for a long time. Is it possible to make a system in an open world game that makes enemies level up at the same time as you do and at the same time give you a sense of progression?
I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat. Also you can come back to zones that you had been before and find enemies that will suppose a threat.
Shut the fuck up LMAO
At level milestones, replace all enemies on the map with new enemies. Not just make people more spongey.
level sync in open world is idiotic
some places should be a challenge while early access zones should be piss easy when you return
not stagnant but enemies don't need top of the line gear once you get it
Enemies can level at the same rate as you so that their strength stays proportional, but they can gain a greater array of abilities/spells and the ai can change to be smarter or more aggressive.
I think it's best when the enemies don't actually gain any stats, just new moves to use on you.
>because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat.
why the fuck do you consider this a good thing? there should by all means be areas that are dangerous early on, that you can come back to later when you're stronger and overcome. i think that makes for a far more gratifying game than having every single area be accessible from the very start.
It's better that at the lowest level you at least have a chance against powerful enemies. That way you can still explore anywhere without the loss of a sense of progress. Though if you are outmatched just run. Flight is part of exploration.
But you'll make the open-world game somewhat linear. Also how are you supposed to tell the level required to visit any zone?
>I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat.
Seriously? KILL YOURSELF
that's fucking trash there should always be zones and areas that you need to train for and prepare for. I don't want to wander into Mount AssFucking Death and fight a lvl 4 wolf. I want there to be a terrifying monster that I know I can't defeat until I've progressed and become stronger and better equipped.
How is there any sense of adventure or journey or progression if I can go anywhere and kill anything at lvl 1?
Seriously is OP a fucking retard? Anyone who shares his opinion needs to clean their fucking ears out with a .45
Enemies level to different thresholds depending on story events through the game, giving proportional experience which makes grinding off low level enemies at an early stage not worth it. When the enemies level they get new abilities and become smarter.
It's not really the same but take Dragon's Dogma enemies from midgame to post Grigori as example.
open world games are never linear
just because you can't steam roll everyone like skyrim doesn't mean you should avoid an area
hopefully you'll get your ass kicked because you're ill prepared
>Also how are you supposed to tell the level required to visit any zone?
I don't even understand this question.
>you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat.
congrats, you have made a walking sim with "combat".
just like a bunch of other MMO's.
If you reduce the damage gain from level to level, and instead give the player more tools, then you only need to increase the number of enemies(to a reasonable limit).
Being challenged by lots of weak enemies is a lot more satisfying than making rats take high level magic to kill.
There is no sense of progression if you are not progressing.
You're essentially just getting a warddrobe overhaul if enemies are auto-levelling at the exact same rate you are, meaning you essentially move from square 1.
I don't like auto levelled enemies, I enjoy going to early regions and stomping on the shit idiots that never learned before. I also enjoy going to a new area and getting facerolled because I wasn't meant to be there yet. I dislike FFII though.
That's not linear at all unless you only have ONE place you can go and that one place leads to the next ONE place. And to answer your dumb fucking question. You're supposed to know because if the games any good it will be obvious. If your wear leather armour and have a rusty iron hatchet you should know you can't fight a 12 foot tall flaming tiger. How about a sign that says beware of dragons. Or maybe a mass of dead bodies of elite looking soldiers. Or how about the nearby townsfolk tell you not to fuck with that cave. Or just the environment alone? Or how about you wander in, get fucked, and die. Or wander in, get almost fucked, and run the fuck away.
If you honestly can't think of a million different ways to convey that your either a dumb fucking child or a dumb fucking man child.
Choose one. Then kill yourself.
>level scaling is gud lol
Nice bait
>that pic
Any time you see a proof that ends with 1 = 2 or 0 = 1, there's a division by zero error hidden somewhere in the proof.
If you can't see the error in that picture you are a brainlet and should sterilize yourself.
So you got 100 speech craft and 50 light armor?
Have fun, fgt.
whats the point of having levels then?
also whats the point of having a large open world if its all the same?
basically, your idea is shit
God, yes.
A bandit in golden elven armor is retarded. 8 bandits in the same crap starting armor, plus four hounds and an archer in a tree, now that's an encounter.
To save anyone who doesn't know it the time...
If a and b are the same, then a - b = 0. You'll see between the fourth and fifth line the a - b disappeared on both signs because they divided it out. Division by 0 fucks things.
>spoonfeeding the brainlets
Who cares you fucking nerd?
If A=B and A+B=B then A and B are 0.
Is oblivion worth it, Sup Forums? (never touched it before)
oblivion did this to some extent
Really depends on the power scale the game has and how it goes about it. Oblivion did it really poorly considering enemies often matched your level 1:1 while getting access to the best weapon and armor qualities in the range they're in. Skyrim on the other hand just makes enemies have attributes that skyrocket well past the player's own.
Worth a try. Consider in mods on a second playthrough since you can appreciate the differences then.
90% of fun in open world games is risk-reward, sure you may be underleveled for a certain area but if you strategize correctly (use certain scrolls, or an enchanted blade whatever), you're rewarded with higher level gear
>I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat
This is why a leveled draugr is stronger than most dragons, hell even some bandit chiefs rival dragons, I personally think it ruins games and couldn't be anymore casual bait.
Going to areas way higher than your level was the best part of FF XII.
>might and magic had fixed-level open-world formula figured out decades ago
really makes you wonder
>I want to be able to go through a bandit camp and kill everyone with a spoon
This is how you all sound.
Guards, the merchants and the beggar give dragons a run for their money.
Shit when I was in town and a dragon attacked, I'd still carry on my business because I knew the guards could handle this
Now Vampires, they could actually kill shit.
I had to go fight them
This feature is why I don't like Elder Scrolls games
I slay you with spooning
But the reason I can do this is because I got the spoon of assbending from a level 40 area with my lvl 5 black chef. I earned it.
Auto leveling is shit. Would only work if their stats increased along the MC, but the MC gained more skills to compensate.
Rats that take apocalypse class magic to kill are just ridiculous.
Ditch conventional leveling where you're getting numerically more powerful without gaining access to new abilities and means for dealing with threats.
Replace it with ability-based progression where your arsenal improves while your base stats overall don't. You can still do whatever you want, but you'll be better equipped to deal with it at a higher level.
I remember those bandits in glass armour.
Level scaling is utter fucking cancer and every game that uses it becomes garbage. I'm fucking apalled to see it becoming so populare in genres where it shouldn't be like fucking MMOs and Hack and Slashes.
Why the fuck would you add level scaling to a hack and slash when the whole fucking genre is about the feeling of progression? Same thing for a MMO.
This is another retarded design choice meant to cater to fucking pissbabies who can't wait to get anywhere and just want to plow through content without care.
ESO was actually decent because they added level scaling cancer. Diablo 3 was stomachable before it. Now both games are utter unredeemable trash.
I can't put in words how strong my hatred for level scaling in video games is. It's by far the worst flaw a game can have, and in my case will turn ANY game even the otherwise most interesting into a non-purchase.
It's fucking bullshit. Make level ranges specific to regions so you progress naturally.
Well some of the stuff OP says kinda makes sense in context when the only two outcomes of you encountering an enemy is you killing it or you dying. To make sandbox where you can visit any area at any time without being overwhelmed by the enemies you need other alternatives like stealth or running away.
>dividing by 0
>please make all my enemies irrelevant at level 20 senpai
Anyway, what are some sandbox rpgs without scaling enemies where you aren't forced to progress from areas A and B to tougher areas C and D?
It has the best quests in the series. But yeah, fix the graphics a bit and consider a leveling fix.
>
I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat. Also you can come back to zones that you had been before and find enemies that will suppose a threat.
I hope this is bait.
>enemies below your level scale up to keep the sense of challenge
>enemies above your level do not scale down to keep the sense of progression
How'd I do
Actually you're a fucking visionary. How can we get you into the video game industry so you can make good games?
I think Souls games would be a good starting point for something like that. Each level makes a very small impact, even early enemies can kill you if they catch you off-guard, but there is still progression and you enjoy getting stronger.
I think fixing health/damage and just giving the player more options to use in combat would work.
I'll do you one better
>enemies in a specific locale have a scale range
>starting areas have scale ranges from, say, 1-7 while ending areas may have 19-20+
>every area has an optional quest or trigger that can unlock high level spawns in that area
>so, in the starting area, you can do a quest that results in the local bandits getting access to a cache of weapons from the BBEG
>in the mid-level adventure town, you can do a quest that results in the town gangsters shipping in hitmen from the Old Country
>in the high level Mt. Justbeforethedungeon area, the soldiers of Dr. BBEG never stop leveling up
Literally Witcher 3?
>I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games because that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat
I find this is the opposite of how it works
You can beat any souls game without ever leveling up or changing gear and they don't level scale anything
Meanwhile if you max the difficulty in oblivion without min maxing stats you can't go anywhere because a random zombie can 2-hit KO you with unavoidable chip damage and takes around 40+ stabs/fireballs to kill
If you want players to be able to go anywhere at anytime, just make a combat system where the player can outperform their enemies
I was always happy with having strong enemies in weak enemy areas - that feeling of satisfaction when you end up reaching the bridge before that sunken city in dark souls and knowing you could finally fuck up those wyverns was pretty neat.
Yes, see pic related.
That sounds fucking awful jesus christ.
>Also how are you supposed to tell the level required to visit any zone?
Did you die? Then it's too high for you.
Unashamedly and unironically going to steal this idea for my own use, it's perfect
but then this happens
how about just a mix of the two? scaled leveling isn't are tarded idea in itself, but when you apply it to literally everything ,it makes for shit progression.
I'd say scale some specific areas that are important and should be experienced at a constant level of difficulty (ie main quest shit) while keeping most other places the same.
>we want the retard audience
I wish publishers never got their greedy fingers into every development studio
>Is it possible to make a system in an open world game that makes enemies level up at the same time as you do and at the same time give you a sense of progression?
No.
>I think that auto leveling enemies is a must in open-world games
As long as you want "open-world game" and "fucking shit" to remain synonyms.
Why not just take out leveling then?
It's just capitalism man. As soon as PC and Console games started booming after the 90s revival, big business got involved. It's also one of the reasons I view the 90s and very early 2000s as the golden age of gaming.
No where else did you see such a wide variety of games of different genres going their own direction based almost solely on the creative ideas of the devs, whom were often DnD nerds in their 20s and 30s.
Since there was no golden standard of "What sells" in the gaming industry at that time, developers were allowed more creative freedom to really push the boundaries and be radically different.
Once the mega-success games came out for every genre everything since then has tried to imitate it purely for financial reasons.
Oh man, I remember when I power-leveled in Oblivion.
Did it through acrobatics and other random shit I decided to pick.
Thought "Hey, they level with me, so it'll still be an even fight throughout."
Little did I take into consideration that I wasn't getting armor and weapons to match the enemy threat.
Pretty much walked into the Kavatch siege wearing a loin cloth fighting an army of crocodile men, pterodactyls and elementals. Got my shit recked even on the easiest difficulty.
Fuck man.
Gothic did this with chapters. It was one of the best systems to keep the enemies relevant desu.
Honestly? Yeah, it's really fun to strip down and wander through early game areas killing everything that looks at you funny.
Fallout 4 had a decent compromise.
It sort of had half-level scaling.
For example, in a level 30 zone, if you are level 20, enemies will be level 25. If you are level 40, enemies will be level 35.
The difficulty zones were directly distributed based on how far they are from the starting zone
this. no threat=no challenge=pointless game
In a series like TES it's fine, but in more action focused RPG's, enemies that are much stronger than you are a must. They keep you on your toes and give you a goal to shoot for. Plus there's no better feeling than turning a grueling boss fight into simple fodder
BG2 did this.
No, enemies having traditional "levels" that scale is dumb as shit.
Compare Dead Island and Dying Light. Zombies were still relatively quick to die in the latter while adding some newer types to bring additional challenge, whereas the former just turned everything into boring ass sponges after a while.
No just have areas with different difficulty of enemies that can only be beat based on your characters progression
>that way you can wander to any part of the map knowing that you'll be able to defeat any possible threat
And defeat the entire purpose of getting stronger in the first place.
Fuck compromises, bad ideas are bad ideas, this industry is full of cucks that can't take a stand on anything.
Fallout 4 also did the skull next to healthbar thing that indicated when an enemy may just be too tough for you right now, I think that was alright
it was miles better than what Oblivion did at least
I honestly think that they were on their best track with Fallout 3 though, because of the hard level cap. They had tougher areas that weren't for level 1 characters, but they also had scaling, which progressed not only with your level but also the main storyline
You keep levelling up and at some point it feels pointless because enemies keep infinitely scaling with or they are static and you steamroll everything at some point, because you're overleveled, so I don't understand why they only did the hard level cap once, it's the most simple solution to balance out the game and also keeps players from becoming a master of everything
>on their best track with Fallout 3
Fallout 3 was one of the worst with it because Broken Steel made everything stupidly spongey to the point you basically had to shoot everything twelve times with a gauss gun at that point.
Also feral ghoul reavers, the biggest artificial difficulty ever.
This but somewhat gated.
Areas should be divided into easy medium hard and for special places, endgame tier. You So early on you still can't travel to the super dangerous places early on, and late game the easy areas will be a cakewalk, but it's okay to have limited enemy level ups to match you. Just don't do what Oblivion did jesus fuck
Broken Steel was honestly the only DLC of that game that I didn't get, so I don't know, but it was definitely alright in the main game
>I got a legendary sword so all 3 millions of random bandits should have one too
This is how you sound
Have monster lairs/enemy bases or whatever that pop up in regions that get stronger with time if left alone and have clearing that out scatter the level spread and have enemies move about to new locations and shit
Level scaling is shit
There is a way to do it in a way that doesn't feel hamfisted.
Make the Level Scaling not apply to areas you've already been. For instance, if you walk to and complete a quest in an area at level 5, then those enemies will be scaled to level 5. Alternatively, if you scale a place to 15, it will always stay at 15, regardless of the fact that you are now level 25.
So you're wandering around in unexplored wildernesses at level 25, fighting level 25 enemies and getting level 25 loot, but if you go back to where you've been, it will be 20, 15, 10, things like that.
Makes it so that no matter what you do, the game feels like you're moving forward, instead of always held back, and you can mentally map an entire game based on how hard the enemies are.
This is more easily pulled off if the game gates its storyline progression somewhat, by making entire sectors of the map only available one at a time, but you can do them in any order.
Amalur did this and it was complete shit, scales your quest rewards and dungeons too
You could also fuck it by running about and forcing the level scaling but this was probably not intended
Too easily exploited unless you severely gate off each area.
Unfortunate.
I figured as much.
If this problem was easily solved by a random faggot on Sup Forums then why wouldn't AAA devs have fixed it by now, huh? I guess the answer wouldn't be as simple as a design philosophy.
You are all retarded. It has been proven time and time again that people get bored if there is no challenge. Games should not be living in a comfy world and seeking out threats. That is, after all, the sign of psychosis. Rather, a game is living in a dangerous world and seeking out comfy. In DnD the GM matches the party against challenges, and it is proven that this is the best approach. If the players struggle to stay alive, that inn at the end of the road with the slutty barkeep daughter is just that much more fantastical. And what kind of high level character just retires to herding sheep and fucking barkeep daughters? One without ambition. Challenge the deities, seek answers to grand questions, show some god damn creativity you soulless underage quest farmers
The problem with level scaling is you can't really enable the player to feel like they are growing if enemies are growing with you
You can just make a bunch of weaker enemies pop up in encounters but that's just busywork for stronger players to fight 8 rats instead of 2
You could make a chance of stronger encounters, that would probably be somewhat reasonable I guess
Definitely don't do what Amalur did though
Level scaling doesn't make a world dangerous, it makes many mechanics feel pointless at best
Dont fucking reply with this bait strawman seriously kys
>Easily proven wrong
>I-It's trolling, don't reply