When someone says an RPG is "hard"

RPGs do not have difficulty levels you Shin Megami faggots. They cannot be easy or hard. They can only be non-tedious or tedious.

That's stupid. Do go on.

There is no problem in an RPG that cannot be solved by grinding. Therefore: he's not wrong.

Remove stupid mechanics like RNG and grinding and RPGs can be strategic and challenging

What about puzzles in an RPG? You can't progress no matter your level if you can't figure it out. That can be difficult, whether or not you like it is another story.
Also tedious and difficult/easy are not mutually exclusive.

>getting stuck in a game for a reason other than the primary gaming mechanic
Wew

If it's in the game, it's part of the challenge, you can't just ignore other mechanics to further your point, faggot. I know we're on the internet but come on.

TYRANNY

PATH OF THE DAMNED

GO AHEAD

GET YOUR SHIT PUSHED IN

I DARE YOU

>grinding
Is this even a thing in wrpgs?
It's weird reading this because just the other day I got into a debate with a friend who claimed RPGs I play are all about grinding and shit (he made the example of dark souls). But he didn't know shit about the rpg genre let alone dark souls so I told him to shut up
>ask him what rpgs he played
>"binding of isaac, nuclear throne, bastion, OFF, LISA, enter the gungeon"
>mfw

Lisa the painful is hard
Hard on your feelings.

>he's not wrong but I'm too passive aggressive to say he's right
reddit nigger colonist

This is true, but good RPGs will let you reallocate your resources to beat whatever enemy you're getting walled by. With games like that all you have to do is change your elements around or google the optimal builds for your characters.

I've played quite a few rpg's and the only challange I remembered was not from any enemy or boss fight but getting the sun sigil from FFX.
It's usually the old school rpg's till the end of the ps2 era.

Wizardry 4
now fuck off underage

Yeah, all enemies shold die in one hit and only do 1 point of damage to you, otherwise it's boring.

Hard means a waste of time because it needs stupid amounts of grinding. Turn based RPGs don't belong in the modern era anymore unless it's strategy but even that becomes more of a puzzle game

That's not how it works exactly.
You can get good and stop being a retarded frogposter and go through the game by using your brain and never have the need to grind once, or be the fucking retard you are and bruteforce everything by grinding. Some games will even put level caps that will make winning the game impossible at later levels because you can't grind and bruteforce anymore.

Of course the case I listed is when the RPG is good, because otherwise we fall into the category you listed instead, ending up with crap like Grindgea.

>spending time playing a game is a waste

Wew lad

We know that. Games are a waste of time. So is TV, music, and anything.else that does not serve the purpose of self improvement, gaining wealth or contributing to society. All entertainment is a waste of time. If that bothers you that much, then stop playing.

The fact that you'll waste more time playing hard games doesn't make them more of a waste of time than easy ones (as much weird and counter-intuitive it sounds). Actually, it's the opposite. With a challenging game, you'll waste your time in a bit more meaningful way, because by failing and gitting gud in a challenging video game you at least imitate in part what it is to fail and git gud in real life, that is, getting out of your comfort zone, thinking, improving and overcoming obstacles, which is good for your brain and your personality. Still, it's fucking nothing compared to actually facing real hardship in real life, but you don't even get that while playing easy games. Easy games are ultimately the worst kind of waste of time.

>b-but I'll spend more time playing hard game than easy one
Yes, you'll spend less time playing an easy game. But then you'll move to another one, and then another one, and keep mindlessly chugging them without getting anything from it. If you rather focus on harder games, you'll play less of them and will miss a lot of new titles, but ultimately you will get a more meaningful experience and more fun, and the fact that the game will pose a challenge for you and you'll get stuck more often than not and you won't get flooded by a shitton of games you play one after another, each game you play will become more fun and you will actually start remembering them. Imagine what would that be, to be asked what game you played 3 months ago and be able to answer and tell what part of the game you liked the most, what quest was the most fun, what adventures did you have with it. I bet this never actually happened to you.

So they can only be "moderate" or "normal" then?

>grinding gets rid of all difficulty
And if a difficulty mode removes grinding?

What if something in the game is still difficult with max stats?

Personally I'm more of an action game guy myself, I'm just asking for the sake of discussion.

"There's no such thing as a hard game; there's only trial and error"

so what faggot

Converting time spent playing a game learning nothing but improving your stats is a waste of time. That's what I mean. I know all games and entertainment can be considered that but seeing numbers go up is the lowest of the low. There are better things you could be doing than making numbers go higher than the AI.

>grinding
There's a lot of games that don't have or discourage grinding, and not everyone is autistic and grinds for 4 hours whenever the game gets a little bit more challenging.

navigating menus and pressing a button to advance text boxes can be pretty rough

user, people play hard games without grinding. It's possible, and it's fun.

Good point, but I wouldn't put grinding in a "challenge" or "things that make games hard" category, hence my interpretation of OP.

Grind aimlessly in any post-GB SaGa game, let me know how it works out for you.

Kill him Anakin. Kill him now.

Play Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song and tell me how that works out. The only thing you'll be solving is your inability to progress in the game.
>Remove stupid mechanics like RNG
You mean something that is innate with the genre?

>Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song
>It's a JRPG

To be desu with you I'd much rather kill myself famalama

>all games are shit because they have X mechanic in them and that eliminates any challenge/fun from the game
>here is game without X, proving you wrong. Try it so you're not just some autistic faggot complaining about shit he doesn't understand
>nah
desu you should kill yourself

Try to find an example that is aimed to adults, and not a game filled with 14 year old protagonists with crazy, coloured hairstyles that fight for friendship against ancient evils for the sake of evil.

How old of a protagonist? Maybe you should play the game instead of spouting Sup Forums meme's.

You picked the wrong series to complain about.

but that's not true, there are plenty of RPGs where you cannot grind, especially CRPGs.

Why is
>b-but you can grind to break the game
a valid complaint on the game's difficulty? There's cheese strats for a lot of fucking action games and strategy games that don't actually make the base game harder, you just have to go out of your way and waste time to get the payoff there. Plus, grinding doesn't make the game any more fun. You're literally like an autistic child smashing their toys and then complaining that they're broken.

Final Fantasy isn't even about those, you fucking casual.
Shit, Persona and Tales don't even count.

...

haha u got baided :-DDD

Wizardry 4 would like a word with you.

I'm playing that game right now. In fact it's my first time and I will defeat 10 fatestone Saurin, God wills it.

They can only be non-tedious if you are good at them or tedious if you can only win by grinding

>I'm playing that game right now. In fact it's my first time and I will defeat 10 fatestone Saurin, God wills it.
I don't think you can do 10 fatestone Saruin the first time.

Yeah, that does not bother me I shall do the new game+. Nothing will stand in my way.

That's fine, just hope you are doing your first play through blind though. Part of the satisfaction is finding out how to complete a lot of the quests on your own or where to go.

Thank you for your support! We need more SaGa threads on Sup Forums or /vr/.

~Blocks your path~

Well there is an eternal SaGa thread on /vr/, though I personally like the random ones that come out of nowhere. I am still baffled on how it never caught on in the west compared to so many other Square series. Games like Parasite Eve, Mana, Vagrant Story, and possibly some others have more discussion than SaGa which has been running for awhile with various entries in the series.

Funny how it was the series that initially brought me into RPG's with the Gameboy trilogy.

>All these people giving examples of games with level scaling

If your game has scaling then it's not an RPG. There's no real character progression at that point.

>game has level scaling
>character abilities and stats progress as you level
>enemies may also progress, due to scaling, but not necessarily at a 1:1 ratio, and that still doesn't account for the fact that your character progresses
>characters still progress, therefore it's still an RPG
faggot

Can't have level scaling if there are no levels and if monsters themselves don't gain power and are replaced.

Lots of reasons. First, the series was barely marketed outside of Unlimited SaGa, and we all know how that one went. Second, SoA let the series lapse for several years by not bringing over a single fucking one of the SNES games despite the GB games actually being popular. Third, back when people actually listened to reviewers, nearly every single mainstream review was from downies who instantly slammed them for not being paint by numbers JRPGs.

If Minstrel Song instead came out when people were getting fed up with the JRPG formula, I guarantee you it would've been reviewed better across the board.

That's not how that works.

Ive heard that this game punishes grinding. Care to explain what they planned players to do and how it punishes?

That is mostly from the past, over a long time the internet has been prevalent and a lot of people do look into various games companies make, especially when it comes to JRPG fanatics they tend to really scour for such games and for some reason the series just gets utterly overlooked.

A few mechanics in play from character development to battle rank. Unlike a lot of other games in which you just fill a bar to get the next level or attain the next skill you have to roll the dice a bit and actually fight strong enemies in order to more reliably learn new skills and gain more stats. If you fight weak enemies they yield little to no stat or skill boosts. That coupled with the battle rank system which can either strengthen monsters or remove lower tier monsters and replace them with the next tier monsters can put people in a situation in which they have low stats and weak skills against strong enemies thus making the file unwinnable.

Well, the problem there is that the bad word of mouth still stuck around and that the series by and large doesn't appeal to the kind of person who thinks that FFVII is the best game ever. You'd have more luck selling SaGa to WRPG fans, if anything.

I see, thank you user!

At the very least, Project Octopath looks like it could be a SaGa game in disguise.