Bioshock

What is Sup Forums opinion on Andrew Ryan?

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A fucking idiot just like the person he was based off of.

An interesting character who deserved more monologue before being killed

Both of them are smarter than you

>smarter
maybe, but definitely not at all consistent, just like rand.
Where did his free market utopia go?
Why did rand accept government help later in life?

because she paid taxes for the services all her life

Getting out-played by fontaine is pretty embarrassing, desu.
Otherwise he's very admirable, built his own fortune. Built Rapture with his own money. Gathered people not by politics, nepotism or class, but because of his personal interest in them such as McDonagh. Despite his conservative nature he wasnt a totalitarian and allowed people like Cohen who in every regard should have been considered a "dirty parasite".

That makes it totally okay then. You still didn't address Ryan's hypocrisy.

Ryan?
Did nothing wrong.
Fontaine?
Did nothing wrong.

>Fontaine?
He literally murdered a guy in cold-blood and stole his identity.

Never-mind Mr. Free market turning into Stalin

oh Ryan is a total hypocrite, his moral code clearly breaks down over time

vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/bioshock/images/2/2e/Andrew_Ryan_-_Desperate_Times.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20100702143831

but I do like seeing him against Lamb in Bio2, fuck Lamb

Ryan's enforced isolation inherently makes pure capitalism impossible and I imagine the real estate market is somehwat skewed when one man built the whole town

No ones defending Ryan's hypocrisy, that's his defining character trait and fatal flaw.

You learn so much about Ryan's life in order to give you insight on what makes a man turn into the exact opposite of his principles. He's compelling because he becomes what he despises the most due to his hubristic and suffers the consequences

Rather interesting character.

Didn't like that the second game made him seem ineffective, even if it was intentional ("I was only PRETENDING to be retarded!"), and I didn't like how Infinite made him just seem like a product of "constants and variables" and there were invariably infinite other men like him across the multiverse, and I didn't like how Burial at Sea made him seem like an idiot.

Who? Atlas? Atlas was an entirely invented person.

it's time to settle this Sup Forums

Subject Delta vs Sigma, who do you prefer?

>your life's dream is being corrupted by wops trying to overthrow you
>not having to bend your morals to fight back
What would you have done?
Frank Gorland was a PI who killed a ship captain when he was investigating Ryan.

>The Atlas Form is dead, insect

>what would I have done
Realise that my free market utopia requires toilet scrubbers, Realize that an isolated market is doomed to fail, not waste so much resources building a place at the bottom of the ocean, not invite therapists/psychologists, etc.

If your dream is ruined by you trying to save it, it's probably not worth having.

why didn't he invite the best damned sewage maintenance people in the world anyway? it's what John Galt would have done desu

>Realize that an isolated market is doomed to fail
Japan was isolationist for quite some time and survived just fine.
>not invite therapists/psychologists
agreed
>your dream isnt worth fighting for
wew lad

>the country that was in civil war for 200 years was just fine

>Japan was isolationist for quite some time
wew lad

>no country ever fights or has a disagreement
they were though

Japan had U.S. most of the way. Japan =/= Rich enclave at the bottom of the ocean.

His dream was shit, and doomed from the start.
He did I think, problem is though engineers are in short supply because of their skillset, and even then you need rank and file plumbers too, and their jobs aren't worth the same, even at the bottom of the ocean,

Rapture had most everything Japan had, resource wise though.
And no, their doors were forced open by the dutch.

Rapture didn't have the population, pre-existing infrastructure (stable infrastructure at all according to the audio tapes) , or work-yourself-to death ethic.

>or work-yourself-to death ethic.
japan didnt have hyper-capitalism until the west came.
And their infrastructure was good until the war with fontaine broke out.

>didn't have hyper capitalism until the west came
Then stop comparing imperial japan to Rapture.
The audiotapes disagree, with Hephaestus and Persephone having lots and lots of engineering/mechanical problems.

It was purely for the "countries cant be isolationists and survive" argument.
>Persephone
The real mistake was even wasting money on a jail in the first place.
>Hephaestus
I wouldnt expect the core of any major thing to be without its problems. Especially given the place, and time period.

You can't compare them, then. They had their own set of issues, own systems, and own ways of life that are completely incompatible with modern liberalism, which is inherently globalist.

Its a good thing Rapture wasn't inherently liberal then.

How was it not? It was super hyper capitalistic.

Well what kind of liberal are we talking about exactly?
Ryan's no morality in the way of societal progress, complete freedom , etc?
Then sure.

the Adam Smith liberal, not the ree numales liberal

>confusing liberalism with communism
It's as if a libtard claims that traditionalism and fascism are the same

Well Rapture still wasnt inline with anything else in the world so you really cant brand it as X.

Where did I say anything about communism?
Rapture wasn't inline with any real world place, but the ideology is still there, and it very clearly failed due to Ryan's Hubris

>and it very clearly failed due to Ryan's Hubris
I'd say more so Fontaine's ruthless nature being superior to Ryan's.

He means classic liberalism ie free market capitalism, libertarianism and other bullcrap Rand wanked over.

>Where did I say anythinf about communism
When you equalled liberalism with globalism, parrotting Sup Forums's opinions like a good goy.

And wasn't that what rapture was supposed to uphold?
Capitalism is pretty globalist, I don't know what you're talking about.

Capitalism has nothing to do with globalism you clueless lib arts faggot.

was cucked by his own ideals

>liberalism is now capitalism
>and globalism
>and communism
Pretty versatile ideology. Now fuck off retard.

Pardon me then? Is free market what you're looking for?

Liberalism is capitalism, unless you're the retard using modern american demsocs.
I never said anything about communism.

Ryan was a hypocrite fool, who wanted to create a free society, and yet decided to control it when it didnt went the way he wanted.
At least he had some admirable points, such as his resolution, unlike Fontaine who is an all around idiot.

Free market is a sub-class of an economic system.
globalism is a societal system.
They are mutually exclusive things.

>Liberalism is capitalism
Liberalism is an ideological belief.
Capitalism is an economic system.
Is this really the trash """""""""""higher-learning""""""""""""" uni's are pushing out to you children?

The two are very easily intertwined, as we see in modern politics.
Capitalism is the economic arm of the ideology of liberalism. If you're just gonna try to insult where I'm getting this info then feel free to prove me wrong.

>The two are very easily intertwined, as we see in modern politics
Thats unironically not a valid argument.
Money has nothing to do with freedoms or rights, or philosophy in general but its nice to see the brainwashing is as strong as ever.

Shame we can never have a BS thread without this derail.

Are you retarded user? tell me, what do you think globalism is?

>capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/

and yes, nigga, I do expect you to read all of this shit

>what do you think globalism is?
Its one """unified""", borderless nation. But in reality its a totalitarian dictatorship by a cabal killing and demonizing the public into thinking nationalism is bad and everyone should accept everyone and not have any self-identity whether personal, or cultural.

We solved the money issue nearly a century ago, but thats no good for globalism.

How can people be so retarded/guillable/misguided.

Wow, user, you are right, the globalism I was talking about is this huge all consuming national boogeyman led by (((soros)))

Tell we where and why im wrong.

Your life's dream was to have a place where the wops could do as they pleased with the free market. Andrew Ryan's problem was that he believed in a free market, but he believed in a free market because he believed he'd be the best at it. Turns out he wasn't.

Free market doesnt imply a power charge though.
Still, i completely blame him for letting it get all fucked up.

>Japan was isolationist for quite some time and survived just fine.
Yes and it existed under the Tokugawa Shogunate as a highly stratified system where those on top could do whatever the fuck they wanted to those below them. The Satsuma Rebellion in 1877 wasn't about keeping the pride of the samurai like Last Samurai put it, it was so they could keep the right to chop off the head of any peasant they wanted without consequence.

Here
>Its one """unified""", borderless nation. But in reality its a totalitarian dictatorship by a cabal killing and demonizing the public into thinking nationalism is bad and everyone should accept everyone and not have any self-identity whether personal, or cultural.

Why you're wrong
>the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.

What's the difference? I'm not the guy you're arguing with, I just wish to know

The game says it itself, he couldn't build the better mousetrap, and that really got to him.

>>the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.
its literally been chugging along since 1945.
If you really believe we arent a soft-globalist world for the most part, you're deluded.
Because Globalism can technically operate on anything from communism to full on socialist.
But capitalism is just the most feasible.

I think I get it. Thanks user

I never said we didn't live in globalism, my main point was that capitalism thrives from globalism, and rapture shot itself in the foot by being capitalist, but not open to trade.

>but not open to trade.
Ryan's W H O L E point of Rapture was to get away from the world because he was disgusted with it and thought it was headed for ruin.

Ryan's big mistake was not budging on his ideals and having a nearly-free market with restrictions and anti-trust laws so someone like fontaine cant garner his warchest like he did. And obviously not having better secret police.

Its a shame we live in a world that makes a real Rapture impossible.

The thing that I was most pleased to see in this game was that when everyone went amoral and evil that the game also had evil artists as well and didn't just do the usual scientist have no ethics trope.

But capitalism does its best with trade.
Like how the lady in pauper's drop said, it would have all been well and fine if they weren't all tugging on the same dollar.

Money is bound to ruin any society. It's a fundamentally flawed system. Rapture opening up to trade would have given its location to the world and gotten subverted by American, Russian, and who ever else wanted a piece.