How would you nerf this faggit

How would you nerf this faggit

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By buffing the other classes instead.

There's a pretty good nerf to him already, it's been available since day one: get good.

This

Git gud

Reduce splash damage at all ranges.

get good = going soldier am I right? which class could 1 v 1 him?

Soldier.

He's good but he doesn't need a nerf.

Truth is, if any class in the game needs nerfed, it's Scout. He's ridiculous. Superb mobility, the #1 best heal target for Medics (even better after the crazy speed buff), Great DPS. Bonk! And Crit Cola or insanely OP secondaries, Atomizer turns Scout v Soldier from about equal to heavily Scout-sided, and Sandman is a free kill.

buff Pyro

give pyro all of his melee weapons

Powerjack is still better than all of them...

I'd prefer the half zatoichi

youtube.com/watch?v=oEnrv9EH4Sc

yeah, scout needs a ""nerf""

Only retards think soldier needs to be nerfed, he's the core of the game. Scout/Demo/Soldier are the balanced classes and the ones that sit above or below are OP or UP.

Scout is the best 1v1 class

a solider would 1v1 a scout 70% of the time

Wow what a sound refutation of all my points

Don't nerf him.
Buff the rest of the roster. Especially Pyro, since it's his natural counterpick.

Remove hitboxes on all classes' feet.

Make it so Pyro can carry a flamethrower, shotgun, and flare gun all at once

Lol no. It's 50/50 if the soldier has the shotgun, a gunboats soldier is btfo most of the time by a good scout. Key word being good, you don't balance things going by what shitters do in pubs

stock Soldier doesn't need a nerf

What makes something overpowered is whether it's higher tier or lower tier than the tier with the most characters on it, because balancing around that tier takes the least effort

TF2's tiers work like this
S: Medic (1)
A: Defensive Heavy and Engie (1)
B: Soldier, Scout, Sniper, Demo (4)
C: Offensive Heavy and Engie (1)
D: Spy, Pyro (2)

As you can see the biggest tier is B, therefore you balance your game around tier B (nerf Medic and defensive Engie/Heavy, buff Pyro, Spy, and offensive Engie/Heavy) to make the game balanced in the minimum effort

Balancing the whole game around Pyro (nerfing everyone down to its level) or around Medic (buffing everyone up to its level) would require 8 classes to be changed.
However, balancing the game around Soldier, Scout, Sniper and Demo, who are already pretty close to each other balance-wise, would only require buffing/nerfing/reworking 5 classes

So that is how you balance your game
Scout doesn't need a nerf either
The only class in TF2 that truly needs a nerf is Medic, because he's MANDATORY to win a game, and you have to pick him (or lose) even if you don't enjoy playing him, which is not how a class based game should work

Nerf the gunboats and the Market garden now it needs a minimum airtime to gain crits.

Plain and simple without destroying his power.

Also buff the other classes and add more maps that doesnt give the soldier automatic advantage

>the best player to ever touch the game vs a highlander shitter who's barely good enough to play 6s in im
>on a map where scout can abuse elevations and angles with good footwork

holy fucking christ, never post about tf2 balance again, like seriously dude I would fucking ban you for that shit if I had the power to

YOU'LL NEVER HIT ME!
YOU'LL NEVER HIT MY TINY FEET!
THEY'RE SO TINY I GOT FRICKIN'...SUCH TINY LITTLE FEET!

>that kek worthy tier list
>implying the game should be balanced around pubtrash

The Soldier has the most primary weapons, right? They should have toned down that number long ago but it's too late, now the only way to nerf him is changing the character's stats.

>Reduce minimum splash damage to 35% from 50%
>Increase rocket speed to 1300hu from 1100hu
>increase ramp up to 133% from 125%
Edge splashing is less effective but directs do a bit more damage and are a bit easier to hit.

>medic is top tier
The more things change, the more they stay the same

Most of them suck dick

Aside from the direct hit and the cow mangler everything is a shitty downgrade

>don't balance the game around pubs
Yes, why should a game be balanced around its core playerbase

"Balance the game around me Valve! I'm good! I'm a minority of the playebase but I'm GOOD! LISTEN TO ME! MAKE THE GAME FOR ME AND NO ONE ELSE!"

Except Sandman, Bonk, and Atomizer are actually broken and OP as fuck weapons

Engineer is one of the worst classes in the game. You're throwing if you play him in 6s and he's still "that" class in Highlander. Same with Heavy more or less. Spy is also a much more effective pick class than you give credit for.

If you did something to make medic "not required" you would kill the class. Nerf the Crossbow and Scout speed boost sure, but that's about it

Basically you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

Not him but while I fully agree on the Bonk, Critacola, Atomizer, Mad Milk, Sandman, Soda Popper, and Guillotine, STOCK Scout himself is well-balanced alongside Soldier/Demo/Sniper and does not require a nerf (except maybe rolling back the dumb healing tether thing you mentioned).

Scout's superb ground mobility and high DPS are counterbalanced by his lowest HP and average effective range. This makes him balanced alongside Soldier (high HP, low ground mobility, high range, average damage), Demo (average HP, average ground mobility, average range, high damage), and Sniper (low HP, average ground mobility, high range, high damage)

It's not Scout that needs a nerf; it's Pyro and Spy that need a buff and Engie/Heavy that need a rework to be better on offense and worse on defense

The only proper way to nerf him would be to handicap his rocket jumping abilities, but no one would ever accept a change like that.

MGE isn't the actual game.

Why would you balance a game around the lowest common denominator? Every game should be balanced around the highest level of play. It literally doesn't matter what you do in pubs

PETITE FEET! FEMININE STEP! SOUNDS LIKE A LADY WHEN HE'S WALKIN' IN THE ROOM.

in another 5 years, we're the ones that will still be playing the game

heavy is OP on defense

Can't argue with most of that, except I think Spy is fine right now and Heavy/Engy aren't necessarily any better defensive than offensive. They definitely need help in any case.

Remove the shotgun

How do we get noobs to play medic and not in packs of three when they do?

Just play Scout holy shit. You'd think after 10 years, people would have a solid grasp of this game already.

why play scout when you can play soldier? Sentries pretty much denies your existence as scout

Heavy is not an "offense/defense" class. He's a ranged/CQC class. He massacres in tight spaces or close proximity but he's a giant target at range. And he's too slow to offset that, so he ends up being mediocre outside of pubs where theres enough people to always be shooting.

But if there's no sentries you're pretty much the best match-up class in the game.

Because a team of just Soldiers isn't as effective as a team of Soldiers, Scouts, and Demos.

Good thing it's called TEAM Fortress 2. Plus, that's besides the point. OP was calling soldier OP when there's already a soft counter that exists.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around pubs.
That tier list is based upon 6v6 competitive play.
>Medic is mandatory to win at all times and has always been picked for the last 9 years without fail, so he's the best class for winning games
>teams swap in a Heavy or Engie quite often when holding last because they're better at defending than Scout or Soldier
>Soldier, Scout, and Demo are the full-time classes for general 6s play, with Sniper also being a viable full-time class if you're very good at it
>Engie and Heavy are rarely seen on offense
>Pyro and Spy are rarely played
If you disagree with anything there I'd like to hear why. Otherwise, it's a pretty objectively correct tier list.
>Except Sandman, Bonk, and Atomizer are actually broken and OP as fuck weapons

I agree.
I'm talking about the stock classes.
>You're throwing if you play him in 6s
Not on defense. His Sentry is useful for stalling on lasts. Here's a game played yesterday as an example: youtube.com/watch?v=pEpNeVksxsk
>If you did something to make medic "not required" you would kill the class
That's not true at all. Balance isn't a switch between OP and UP. It's a sliding scale.
The reason Medic is mandatory right now is because his healing numbers are too high. All you have to do is reduce the healing numbers to the point where he's not mandatory, but keep them high enough so he's not useless.

scout isn't a "soft" counter though.

>playing dustbowl
>medic is tripping and won't heal people
>he goes demo and team is medicless
>get fed up and go medic myself
>build uber up in like 10 seconds and cap the point
>that easy

Medic is so braindead but it surprises me how so many people are bad at him. Soldier main btw

The problem with soldier isn't that he's too good at his best, it's that he has a Heavy-tier skill floor with barely any counters even at his worst.
The only place where he's really "balanced" is competitive 6s, where the scout players are actually good and don't have to deal with sentries.
And, to anyone who thinks the game should be balanced around 6s, your opinion is completely impractical and unworkable. TF2 is and always has been designed around casual play, the fact that it can be competitive is basically just coincidence. Valve isn't going to completely revise over a decade of design decisions to cater exclusively to a small subgroup of their audience, deal with it.

I disagree, otherwise PUGS wouldn't pick him on last point

Yes, I agree
>Heavy is not an "offense/defense" class. He's a ranged/CQC class.
Stock Heavy really is a defense class, though. He's slow as molasses without the GRU, and he's a bullet sponge that shits out damage.
>Spy is fine right now
He is pretty much entirely useless against good players. His job is assassination, but Sniper does that job more quickly and safely.
Spy is useful 1% of the time in competitive games. I'd like that number to be higher by giving Spy some support abilities to use when the enemy knows that he's there. Ways of sabotaging the enemy team.
>Heavy/Engy aren't necessarily any better defensive than offensive
They're class limited to 1 each currently because when you have more of them, they are so powerful at defending that they break the game.
>They definitely need help in any case.
Yeah, true. Heavy is just kind of boring, if anything.

sniper

You're missing the point. Just because Engi can occasionally stall when you're not really losing anyway (consider the set-up time and relative fragility of a level 1 vs an incoming Demo or Soldier) does not give him a B tier role. He will still get stomped into the dirt once he actually tries help push or something.

If Medic's healing was lowered enough to make him not a necessary pick, he'd just never be picked, because it would thus be more effective to run another DPS.

>scout is always overhealed when spawning and still gets killed easily by sold

lmao even with handicap scout is shit

>tf2 balance

>That tier list is based upon 6v6 competitive play.
>all that bullshit you posted

I've played comp 6s at every level for the past 6 years

you are an absolute moron and completely ignorant on the subject, you should stop posting about it

there's so much fucking wrong with it I'm not going to bother typing out an entire paragraph

Reduce the deployment time on this thing. Can't tell you how many times I've accidentally picked up my sentry trying to secondary fire my short circuit.

You're really not giving Spy enough credit. He's a fine class to use occasionally. He's not the most often used because his whole meta is built around being unexpected, so the more he's played, the weaker he becomes. He's not necessarily going backstab diving but more likely playing gun spy.

You have to be careful when balancing Spy because the more dangerous you make him, the more players are wary of one, weakening him.

Play medic yourself and get in the top 3 on your team.
Speaking of which, how do you deal with good medic players and their skilled butt buddies?

>with barely any counters
While it's true that Soldier doesn't have any counters, he doesn't counter anyone by design, either.

Every class has a fairly even matchup with Soldier (in Spy's case indirectly, and in Medic's case with the ability to buff allies so they beat Soldier).
>And, to anyone who thinks the game should be balanced around 6s, your opinion is completely impractical and unworkable. TF2 is and always has been designed around casual play, the fact that it can be competitive is basically just coincidence
It's neither impractical nor unworkable. For comparison, Valve made 40 balance changes during Gun Mettle; they'd only need to make 29 balance changes to make TF2 a working competitive game.
>Valve isn't going to completely revise over a decade of design decisions to cater exclusively to a small subgroup of their audience, deal with it.
Well actually, they are.
That's what 90% of the balance changes in Meet your Match, Tough Break, and the upcoming Blogpost were targeted towards: Competitive play.

What, you think they nerfed BASE Jumper because of pubs?? Valve is balancing TF2 for 6v6 Matchmaking now. Deal with it.

Besides, Valve don't need to "revise a decade of design" to make TF2 6s work. All that's required is nerfing/reworking 24 unlock weapons and reworking 5 stock weapons (Flamethrower, Medigun, Minigun, Sentry Gun and Sapper). That's it.

BTW senpai GRU is awful. Use the Eviction Notice for speed

Literally zero argument or citation of your credentials, so we'll safely disregard your post

Take away gunboats
Buff Liberty launcher

if you like winning then you pick medic.

>using the GRU-lite
get a load of this baby nice digits btw

>scout looses on badlands mid
this fucktard doesn't even play the game

gru's marked for death lasts too long, sorry. Eviction Notice is infinitely more versatile and also fun against spies

B4nny doesn't play TF2?

Roll back to the Engi update, the moment in the history of TF2 when balance and fun was at all times high.

I hate both scrubs friendly hoovis and comp esport cocksucker faggots; both sides wants to slap they crusty tiny dicks on the table when TF2 is too far gone.

One side wants to nerf something that can be beaten with patience and skill and the other wants everybody to give a fuck about they stupid ways when for years barely anybody gave a fuck about them.

TF2 of old is long forgotten yet since nothing today has manage to be as unique and fun I have to come back from time to time.

ok, you stupid nigger fuck, you baited me, now be prepared to look like the fucking ignorant idiot you are:

>teams swap in a Heavy or Engie quite often when holding last
no, they fucking don't, heavy is used on 2 lasts in the ESEA map pool, engie is used on 1, and that's only if the other team doesn't have uber
>they're better at defending than Scout or Soldier
no, they fucking aren't, engie is only better if he has time to get up a level 3, which he never does outside of valves pubtrash tier 6s matchmaking, heavy is only better on 2 lasts, and if the other team has uber it doesn't matter anyway

>Sniper also being a viable full-time class if you're very good at it
holy fucking god what in the actual fuck am I reading? how is 5v6 every mid fight viable? have you ever actually played 6s in a league?

>Pyro and Spy are rarely played
spy is a meta pick to break stalemates at chokes and to open up lasts on certain maps like badlands, pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass because he's the best for stuffing ubers pushing into your last

>Otherwise, it's a pretty objectively correct tier list.
lmao

>citation of your credentials
where the fuck are your credentials, you stupid nigger idiot? you want me to link my ESEA account? not that that would prove anything you idiot, I could link anyones

get fucking rekt you pubshit, don't fucking bother replying

>Just because Engi can occasionally stall when you're not really losing anyway
If you're pushed to last, you ARE losing, user.
Level 3 Sentries get put up because they're an extremely effective way of wasting an enemy Uber and make for great area denial.
That's why Engineer and Heavy are class limited to 1.
>He will still get stomped into the dirt once he actually tries help push or something.
Yeah user, that's why I put OFFENSIVE Engineer in tier C.

Defensive Engineer is tier A. Offensive Engineer is tier C.
>If Medic's healing was lowered enough to make him not a necessary pick, he'd just never be picked, because it would thus be more effective to run another DPS.
Let me explain something to you here: We're dealing with numbers.

We know that right now Medic's HP/s being at 24+ makes him indispensable. We know that if his HP/s was at 0, he'd be useless.

All we have to do is find the right point inbetween 24+ and 0, and Medic will neither be indispensable nor useless.
>He's a fine class to use occasionally
Well that's the thing, he shouldn't only be "occasional". He's a class, not a weapon unlock.
>He's not the most often used because his whole meta is built around being unexpected
That's what a support buff is for. So that he can help his team by sabotaging the enemy in the background, even when he's already expected. Then he can hang out for picks here and there while doing this, without wasting time doing nothing.

He beats him on Waste, Trainyard, and Viaduct. He even mentions actual matches would be completely different.

People can just watch some teamfortress.tv or extelevision 6s matches to see how wrong you are.

>not balancing a game around what 90% of players play
>balancing a game around a comp scene that already has well-established rules and restrictions that result in it working just fine as it is

You're a fucking idiot. Comp players don't want any meaningful changes. They want Heavy nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp, they want Pyro nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp. They want no changes ever made to Soldier or Demo so they never have to learn anything new. They are set in their ways, they have practiced for thousands of hours for one specific meta and don't want it changed. They are also a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

It makes absolutely no sense to balance a game around anything other than pubs.

This is why you're not a game dev.

Every game should be balanced to satisfy the broadest number of players. It's the most fiscally and logically sound decision. Appealing to the 1% of players at the highest levels of play doesn't sell Mann Co. supply crate keys.

except I'm not wrong at all, I have no fucking clue what matches you're talking about

random asiafortress or UGC shit is not indicative of the top level of the game

>he doesn't counter anyone by design, either.
>by design
That's the thing, he's not designed to counter anyone specifically, but his rocket launcher is so all-around effective that he essentially counters everyone as long as he knows how to utilize splash damage.
>they'd only need to make 29 balance changes to make TF2 a working competitive game.
I find this extremely questionable, mainly because I don't know what you consider to be a "working competitive game" and it seems very subjective. Can you provide a list of these changes?
>Well actually, they are.
Maybe that's why the Tough Break and MyM updates both made me drop the game for several months each.

>pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass
this is the point i realized your post was bait
Bravo

>pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass

You've never played a day of 6s in your life.

>6s players only plays 6s
Even to this day, competitive players are doing new formats, hell when they did a completely unresistricted 6s matches it lead directly to Babys Face Blaster getting rightfully nerfed by Valve, Their most recent one was 7s Prolander and if it showed anything its that Spy is viable against the right class compositions and that Pyro is the worst class.
6s is the most popular because it the most fun for the people playing it.

soldier takes less skill than literally any class

Eh, heavy still probably takes less, and you can't really compare soldier to the medic or engineer because they play so differently.
But yeah, every class in this game has a skill floor that's below sea level except for maybe scout and sniper.

I'm talking about ETF2L and ESEA, I don't care what you pubtrash shitters think just because you're high rank in valve's matchmaking shitfest

...

Heavy and especially Pyro take way less skill

>but his rocket launcher is so all-around effective that he essentially counters everyone
You're misusing the word "counter".
When you counter someone it means you have an explicit advantage over them which makes you much more likely to win at an equal skill level.

Tell me, how does a Rocket Launcher wielding Soldier counter a Sniper who is sitting on the other side of the map with a laser sight focused on the Soldier's body?
>I find this extremely questionable, mainly because I don't know what you consider to be a "working competitive game" and it seems very subjective. Can you provide a list of these changes?
Here are the weapons banned in competitive 6v6 leagues play that have been determined as having to be banned for the game to be workable without serious imbalances or stalemates: comp.tf/wiki/6v6_Global_Whitelist
It's not subjective but was determined after extensive testing.
>Maybe that's why the Tough Break and MyM updates both made me drop the game for several months each
I don't know about you, but what made people in general temporarily drop TF2 after MyM wasn't the balance changes, it was the implementation of Casual to replace quickplay/server browser.

As you can see here, docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScqruoGsKTHRe45KlfLG1_FbUyvQVXmKvIUtzqN4wXPHJOkhA/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm most people liked the majority of the Meet your Match balance changes.

I haven't even played MM you retard, I play ETF2L and mge and watch ESEA matches on occasion
No more (you)s, your bait is too obvious

>"pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass"
>"get fucking rekt"
???????????????????????????????
Did you time travel from a 2013 pub game?

I would argue that pyro actually takes more skill to be proficient with than the soldier.
He can farm points a bit more easily by extinguishing people and getting free assists for doing absolutely nothing with the scorch shot, but the soldier is still an easier and more effective character at low skill levels just by having fewer counters, more health, and longer range.

I fucking love playing medic.

>They want Heavy nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp
>they want Pyro nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp
I am a comp player and this is my post here so that kind of proves your point wrong.
We'd be perfectly happy for Pyro, Heavy, and Engie to be a bigger part of the game if they actually took skill and didn't cause stalemates. In fact, I frequently argue towards the goal of making them a bigger part of the game
>They are also a tiny fraction of the playerbase
Because the game isn't balanced around competitive, and has had zero competitive support for nine years running from Valve. Of course the community isn't big.

That's no reason not to balance the game around competitive. Many more people would want to play TF2 competitive if it was actually balanced for competitive play.

Besides, whether you like the idea of balancing TF2 around comp or not, IT'S HAPPENING ANYWAY. Valve are already making balance changes targeted at competitive play, and have been for the last three major updates.

Get on board or get left behind.

>Create entire game around 12v12 battles
>Asshole competitive fanbase wants to reduce everything to 9v9 or, dear god, 6v6
And after seeing MyM, competitivefags won. There's nothing Valve can do to fix this mistake.

Game launched 8v8 actually.

The average pub player doesn't care about balance at all.

>>Create entire game around 12v12 battles
Actually TF2 was balanced around 8v8 during development; 12v12 was a decision very late in the piece. That's why the earliest competitive TF2 format was 8v8.
>>Asshole competitive fanbase wants to reduce everything to 9v9 or, dear god, 6v6
You'll still have your 12v12 games, stop overreacting.
For competitive 6v6 to work, only 29 weapons total need to be nerfed/reworked. 12v12 games will still work just fucking fine.

>When you counter someone it means you have an explicit advantage over them which makes you much more likely to win at an equal skill level.
That's exactly what I mean, the problem is you're looking at the highest possible level of comp 6s and I'm not.
At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else, he absolutely has a distinct advantage over most classes. Scouts generally wouldn't be able to dodge rockets consistently, and pyros wouldn't be able to airblast consistently.
Going to you sniper example, a sniper at that skill level may not even be able to reliably bodyshot the the soldier if the soldier knows he's there and make a conscious effort to dodge and harass him.
He certainly wouldn't keep enough pressure on the soldier to keep him from taking objectives.
>Here are the weapons banned in competitive 6v6 leagues play that have been determined as having to be banned for the game to be workable without serious imbalances or stalemates
Oh, so it's just a list of banned weapons with no ideas for how to actually make them acceptable.
And no changes that would, for example, actually make the pyro viable.
>most people liked the majority of the Meet your Match balance changes.
You should check your math on that, because according to the overall ratings of the update roughly 37% of players didn't like it and roughly 35% did
tf2stats.net/maps/
But hey, the average TF2 player apparently also thinks that 2fort, dustbowl, and turbine are the best maps in the game, so maybe popular opinion among the playerbase isn't a good metric of quality when you're judging a game that's notorious for having lots of dumb players.

You heard it here first, folks. GRU is awful.

buff him even more so newfaggots like you leave the game

>At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else, he absolutely has a distinct advantage over most classes
So, you're talking about the lowest skill level of TF2?
You don't balance for the lowest skill level. Bad players can get better. Good players can't get worse.
>if the soldier knows he's there and make a conscious effort to dodge and harass him.
In that case the Soldier is outskilling the Sniper and deserves to outperform him. That's not an inbuilt advantage whatsoever.
>Oh, so it's just a list of banned weapons with no ideas for how to actually make them acceptable
If you really want it, I have it here. It'll take time and space though so I'll put it in a separate post.
>because according to the overall ratings of the update
That's including Valve's dumbass addition of Casual, user, and is thus skewing the figures. We're talking about the BALANCE changes, and as I said, most people liked the majority of the MyM balance changes.
>But hey, the average TF2 player
The utterly average TF2 player doesn't participate in surveys about the game because they aren't that invested. Check the hour counts on that survey: Most respondants had over 1000 hours.

TF2stats.com, rather than being a survey, simply rips data right from Valve's API.

Anyway, my overall point is that a majority of people liked the majority of Valve's balance changes, even though they were targeted at competitive play. So you can't really talk about "a minority of players."

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