When you really think about it who was wrong here?The Patriots or solidus

When you really think about it who was wrong here?The Patriots or solidus

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>solidus
>wrong
the patriots are CLEARLY wrong on everylevel
>inb4 he had child soldiers
SOLIDUS 2001
WE GOTTA FIND SOLIDUS! HE MUST BE STOPPED!!

Both you nitwit. Big Boss, Liquid and Solidus' plans basically amounted to "Let's kill a shitton of people and start a global war!"

The reason Snake opposed every single one of them is because he's the only one who realizes that war really, really sucks.

We are going to see the hell solidus is going through in purgatory in death stranding

Norman is playing a young Solidus

Why does Kojima hate solid then?

Because after MGS1, Kojima turned Snake into a receptacle for the negative karma of every other character in the series. In MGS4, the entire point of his character was reduced to just taking responsibility for the shit that Big Boss, Zero, the Patriots, Liquid and Solidus started. It's the crux of his interactions with Raiden; he feels responsible for all the shit that Raiden's been through his whole life solely because he's related to his hardships by simple proxy. After MGS4, now that he's accomplished his job (i.e., cleaning up everyone else's messes), he quietly dies.

Incidentally, I hated Naomi in MGS4. She tells Snake that "he needs to die before he starts an epidemic" and says that he "can rest", when she's the one who injected FOXDIE into him in the first place. She doesn't even have the fortitude to apologize to him after everything she's put him through.

Thought they only wanted to detonate the nukes in the atmosphere as an EMP to disrupt the patriots AI or something like that. I don't think they were actually going to blow up a target

Nigga, I just pretend I understood the MGS lore.

My answer may vary from time to time.

...

actually solidus knew he'd be stopped, all he wanted was the patriot's names from GW

The Patriots are unironically the good guys. There is literally nothing wrong with controlling information and ridding the world of useless/false information.

Except the patriots evolved into the war economy, and that shits not good for anyone.

kinda true desu

Only MGS 1 and 2 matter in terms of story. Everything else is non-canon as far as I'm concerned.

>it's okay for anyone to decide what is and isn't culturally relevant
Stagnation ahoy!

Then you are retarded and shouldn't be in these threads.

Solidus obvs

Solidus had good intentions, but his means of achieving them were questionable or straight up immoral. Which can be said about a lot of the Metal Gear villains. Big Boss wanted to provide a world were soldiers would never be obsolete, but in order to do so war would need to be a constant. Liquid was the same. Solidus wanted the American people to be free, uncontrolled by the Patriots. Problem was they had so much power that his means of enacting his plan were just as bad as the actions of BB and LS.

>the war to end all wars
>immoral
moralniggers everyone

Solidius literally did nothing wrong.

>the war to end all wars
>honestly believing this

wtf i love solidus now

>he doesnt believe The War™

That's pretty wild stuff.

The patriots were right.

Why should societies useless flow of "truth" and unregulated information be let to go free in the digital age? People in their gated communities afraid of a larger forum and never clashing nor meshing. This is why we had the Charlottesville shit. Dumb civilians should not be trusted, only the patriots should have total control.

The patriots are memes. You realize that right? Not even an actual AI, but a series of memes.

You should teach people about the importance of their free will in relation to everything, so they can become better humans and actually understand how the world works.
Soulless husks of flesh deserve their will to be trampled on but the Patriots would remove everyboys free will and that's just wrong.

Tell me the memes.

Unironically this.

What do you mean?
Meme: A meme is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture. A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures.

What would happen if they controlled information but only SPREAD useless/false information?

Time for my irrelevant opinion

1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > PW

Then you have modern liberals spreading alternative facts and rewriting history to suit their agenda.

Solidus was just a clone of Plasma Snake's runny poop

Good opinion. Personally, mine goes:

2 > 3 > 1 > 4 > 5 > PW

>kills a kid's parents, trains him as an elite soldier, and seems surprised when the kid finds out and seeks revenge
>gloats about the above when said child soldier has a sword in his hand and a strained temper
>tries to go against the omniscient organization that not only put him in power but also created him
>attempts to trust Ocelot, known Patriot button man and the least trustworthy fuckwad in video gaming history
>chooses a disloyal bunch of freaks as mid-bosses
>uses an outdated jump jet and a meme gun in battle
Solidus may have done nothing wrong, but he made a lot of mistakes.

Solidus is always wrong because he's objectively worse snake, unlike all the others including venom he didn't need to be taken down by the king snake, solid, and instead was beaten by raiden. but it wasn't even badass robo raiden, it was sissy "I learned from video games" flesh raiden

It was White Devil Raiden who forgot that he was a child soldier and was retrained through VR so he was still kind of a badass.

3 > Twin snakes > 2 > PW > 1 > Acid > Acid2 > 5 > Rising > 4 >>>>>>>> Portable ops

In my personal bias nostalgic ridden opinion

2 > 3 > 5 > 4 > 1 > PW

It's honestly hard to rank these games because they all are special to me. For all its flaws 4 ruined me when I played it, probably the only time I cried at a video game.

What are the memes that make up the Patriots? Consumerism?

How was he able to be installed as a president so easily when he had such a mysterious background?

The Patriots made him President

Tbh raiden is a fucking monster. I mean they clearly said he was gifted in combat and he was ruthlessly trained as a child soldier.. Raiden was never a push over but people still take him lightly for some reason, there was clearly some missteps in his character show during 2. But according to all his backstory and feats through gameplay, Raiden is a beast.

Patriots probably fabricated information on him.

>Arguing stories in games to a very heavy extent

Zero had such a hard-on for Big Boss that he thought his perfect copy would become the perfect idol. The president is just a puppet of the Patriots so it's easy when it's their idea all along.

It's almost like fictional worlds are based off the real world considering it's in our realm of imagination, and that multiple perspectives are a thing on complex topics.

>Trolling arbitrarily in Sup Forums threads for games you never played to a very heavy extent

youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA
Just watch this.

no... the Patriots really were AIs, in 2 and in 4. the "we're a meme" speech is a metaphor for why and how they were created by the US government. they're a manifestation of those memes in the form of AI.

unless I've misunderstood your post?

V>PW>1>3>2>4

But all of them are great

Some user post the greentext with all the different types of sneks explaining the oil plant in mgs2 and plisskin. Please, it's been so long since I lost my sides.

>has to wear experimental exoskeleton with muscle suit
>is the President of America but uses a katana and wakizashi named "Republican" and "Democrat" in Japanese
>his biggest military achievement is ruining the lives of some children
>doesn't want a world where soldiers will always have a place
>isn't killed by Solid "see a snake, get the rake" Snake

Worst Snake

lol I guess you missed the whole point of MGS2. total information control means the Patriots decide what is and is not factual in the public eye. I'm sure they just fabricated a life story for him when the time came, from early childhood onwards. The real question is, if Big Boss was so famous, how come nobody recognized that the president was a dead ringer for him?

Because he's trying to end the problem and finish the story. Kojimbo envied Solid because that's all he ever wanted to do but never could, thus he resents him. Boss being a total fuck-up whose greatest achievements come from unnamed soldiers is why Kojimba likes him, he can sympathize with that.

>Just recently replayed MGS2 last week
>Listening to the codec speech from the GW AI
>The one where Fake Campbell and Fake Rose are explaing the true purpose of the S3 plan to Raiden
>tfw when I think the Patriots were on to something and that society at large would actually benefit from some sort of mind control program because humanity is too stupid, arrogant, and self-centered for it's own good
>inb4 wow look at that edge

Somebody please convince I'm wrong. What's the point of free will when most human beings are violent, hateful, self-centered savages?

The only fault I have with a mind control program is that we don't have a perfect AI to manage it. If you put a human in that position then you have 1 person with free will over all others and putting your trust in that is just idiocy.

...

>when most human beings are violent, hateful, self-centered savages
Who told you that? The news? Sup Forums? Personal experience? Humans can't see the "whole picture". They aren't omniscient or omnipresent. The Patriot AIs liked to think they were, but in reality they were computer programs developed in the 1970s at the behest of a shell-shocked black-ops mission controller. His opinions and experience provided the background for the Patriot AIs' misanthropy and ruthlessness. Had they been developed by someone else, perhaps they may have been different.

>implying it's not already in effect
antifa good boys showing up to a rally armed and without permit with the intention of violence, there aren't two sides just racist ass kkk nazis

>i want to be controled by (((them)))

>make an AI
>it is inherently flawed because an inherently flawed being created it
And who gets to decide the way the AI controls us? The AI itself? You want to turn on a machine, tell it to babysit humanity because society is difficult, and then just let it do whatever it wants?

What happens if the AI decides to do something you personally disagree with? What if the culture and society it decides is best for humanity is reprehensible to you? You just gonna sit there and shrug because at least it's not a human's fault everything is so terrible?

...

Personal experience. I guess I just have very little hope or faith in humanity.

Literally asking you anons to prove me wrong because I know I sound insane

You are wrong because free will is preferable to the alternative.

>prove your wrong
i dont need to prove anything wrong as i am always right

Op here this is going to be interesting when this goes to the archive and I read this

one could just as easily find the societies that humans have constructed for ourselves reprehensible in the current day. the idea is that if you take a deterministic view of free will, then humans are already slaves to the masters that make their decisions for them (circumstance, genetics, memes, desires / passions), so is it really inherently wrong to replace those masters with different ones whose outcomes are more desirable? (in this case an New World Order run by an AI singularity.)

putting aside qualitative statements like 'violent"and "hateful", I think most people would find the proposition that humans are imperfect and could be improved upon to be an agreeable one, even if it is subjective. the problems outlined by the Patriots in the "Create Context" speech are real ones that humanity is facing in the present day. although I think most people will find the specific objectives that the Patriots turned out to be pursuing in MGS4 to be disagreeable (war economy), those specific objectives were left up to the player's imagination in MGS2, and I think the argument can be made that the system itself is not inherently evil, even if the Patriots' goals were bizarre and undesirable to most people.

>the idea that the human masses are incapable of running their own lives so a small number of elite overseers do it for them
>part of which is complete control of information, to the point of deciding what and what is not real by manipulating the truth
>another part of which is using constant warfare to ensure there's always a focus on something else besides their lives, to keep the patriotic spirit alive

I think I've heard this one before

What kind of faggot forgets his picture

1984? the difference is that the Ministry of Truth is overt and explicitly demonizes anything that goes against its narrative, whereas the Patriots are running a clandestine operation that retains the illusion of free will in human affairs.

and despite the name, I never really saw the Patriots as exploiting "patriotism" or nationalism to control people, just their own materialistic desires in a kind of neoliberal, late stage capitalism kind of way.

>tfw the two minutes of television programming at the start of MGS4 is the vest part

Raiden throughout the game is shown to be just as good as Snake, but people forget about that because he looks a bit faggy therefore must be shit.

The Patriots, easily.

They were an emergent intelligence that turned itself into an actual A.I.

A better example would be an ant colony that is theorized to comprise another such emergent intelligence.

The Patriots eventually devolved into the War Economy but even with PMCs and Rebels, there was always a war, always an Us and a Them to exploit, always an enemy claiming the lives of young, brave men marching off to make the world a better place. It's just a little more believable in the long term than "we've ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia"

That you by your free will recognize the correct values proofs that society doesn't need all powerful direction, just better education for the people that are savages.

>tfw user found out the truth and no one payed attention to the post
SOON ILL COME AROUND

Solidus wanted to free the world from The Patriot's control which is exactly the same aim as Snake, Otacon and RealOcelot in MGS4. He is a true hero.

It's a valid point of view and the game makes an argument for it.

How do you know ((they)) didn't put that thought into your mind?

Why is Solidus noticeably at least 10 years older than the other two triplets?

Accelerated ageing to make him look like Big Boss faster

>solidus WAS right
he IS right

>tfw VA of Solidus is gone

RIP BEST SNAKE

Funny because he was the one without FOXDIE

What the fuck are Kojima's political views?
Will of The Boss: globalist utopia, basically World Communism
Big Boss's desire: soldiers who don't fight for a nation, where they can "be themselves" (lol)
Solidus: basically turn America into the wild west
Nicola and Bart: song about sympathizing with anarchist gang members who probably murdered innocents

Is Kojimer an antifa anarchist?

Solidus wants to destroy the Patriots because the Patriots themselves planted the idea in his head so they could conduct an experiment on whether or not they could manipulate people into doing/thinking what they wanted without the person realizing they were being exploited.

So he was right entirely because the Patriots made him right.

When you really think about it who was wrong here? The Patriots or Ocelot?

>Will of The Boss: globalist utopia, basically World Communism

Her will was world peace. No soldiers, no guns, no fighting. People keep getting this shit wrong which caused all the problems in the first place because apparently they are unable to listen.

>muh 4D chess mindgame

((They)) destroy oppositions when they see it and why bother to pull a stunt like that if they don't want the masses to know about their agenda as a whole

Solidus in the beginning was a pawn for them but soon he realizes the big picture and wants to cut the cord that surrounds his country. Solid and Raiden are the badguys until MGS4 which Solid accidentally btfo the Patroits when taking down Ocelot.

World peace is too vague and universal of a goal. She wanted world peace by eliminating borders. The real life equivalent of this is international communism.

I still have no idea why Raiden fought him, the game really seemed to make Solidus the good guy at the end

>Patriots claimed his nanomachines son were wired to Rose and Sunny so they would die if he died
>Solidus "accidentally" crashed Arsenal Gear into Manhattan
I wonder what Solidus was up to while Raiden was being preached at for 12 minutes. Stretching his muscles or something? I dunno.

>btw I killed your parents xP

Kojima is a hack.

In real life Raiden is a fat degenerate neck beard who plays video games all day and has no real ideals or political views. This allowed him to be easily controlled like how a certain tribe of people control the goyim via media and news. Raiden's whole life is a depressing pointless waste similar to people on Sup Forums. He was kind of ruined at the end of MGS4 when he had a son and decided to get along with his cucking wife, but the end of MGS4 ruined a lot of things.

the patriots was just a set of preprogrammed algorithms by then and not a living tribunal of shady illuminati types. Thye were just doing what they were made to do.
Solidus on the other hand was conscious of what and how he was doing things. He was doing them in extreme ways but with the right intentions.
Neither was wrong, they were just doing what they thought was right. Perhaps the theme here is that the one with more to accomplish has to go further to achieve it

Something about the Patriots having the baby of the russian woman and they would kill it if Raiden doesn't kill Solidus. That part was really hamfisted. I know what Kojima wanted to do by railroading us into dueling Solidus but ther should have been some kind of option or better justification.

Well, I mean, obviously it was more important to save Olga's daughter :^) Also I think if Raiden disobeyed, Patriots would've just killed him right there since he has their nanomachines injected and stuff?

unlike Liquid, Solidus never shared his father's autistic dream for a soldier state