How do we fix the MMO trinity?

How do we fix the MMO trinity?

Make everyone cute girls.

There is literally nothing wrong with the formula. It works for what it's needed for.

If you want to get rid of it, make a game that won't require such a setup.

Taking the RO route: hyper-specialized classes

with cat paws, tail and ears!!!

What's there to fix? It's called the holy Trinity for a reason. It just works. If one role is missing then the entire Trinity fails and if another role is added then the game design and loot system suffers.

More specialized roles but keep the trinity in tact. DPS that specialize more in support buffs or off-healing. Healers that heal via damage dealt. Tanks with unique mechanics like summoning minions to tank for them or evasion.

The trinity is literally perfect but the roles could be more exciting.

There really isnt a way to.
if you add a support role then it HAS to be good enough to justify not bringing another dps
Make it not good enough, then it wont be worth bringing
Make it too good, then its the only thing anyone bothers with

get rid of it completely

You make it interesting and don't give into standard MMO conventions.

add in tech

You don't.

Any game with number crunch combat will come down to this unless you slap diminishing returns on multiple abilities of the same type.

An alternative is to make it so that every class than do all 3 at once, if they select the right skills.

>Implying you need a dedicated healer in FFXIV when red mage is enough

my work here is done

It's too simple.

We need to go back to bomber/buffer/mana battery/puller/tank/healers or at the very least steal from dnd 4e and move to leader/controller/defender/striker.

inb4 "SORCERERS MAKE SHITTY TANKS STOP TAKING THEM" and "WARRIOR WORST HEALER 2018"

I've never played a game where this wasn't underwhelming.

Make it like Monster Hunter or PSO where everyone can tank/heal/dps on their character through itemization and getting gud.

Is Chinese Todd Howard right about modern MMOs?

I mean, this is basically monster hunter.

And that works great.

Final Fantasy XI, despite all it's flaws, did it fine. They had parties of 6 and several jobs that could do multiple roles along with support classes. You obviously needed tanks and heals for a successful party but you had members that didn't have any role in the traditional trinity but were more than useful.

And of course FFXIV had to (eventually) become a WoW clone.

No, MMOs shouldn't exist at all. They offer literally nothing.

No paws, shit's way too furry.

Those aren't MMOs. They're multiplayer action games with a lobby.

>Tank
>PSO

what

Does MH have iframe dodges?

I'm up to killing my third Ziggistardust and I can't tell.

what the fuck is he talking about? Asians are videogame junkies that rather kill their children to play some WoW.

He's right that modern MMOs have to be less about poopsocking. The people with money (normies) dont have the time to wait months just to level up slow or grind NMs like in FFXI.

I don't imagine those types of players are long term subscribers.

>They're multiplayer action games with a lobby
What's the difference between wow or FFXIV where people afk in a lobby town and go into instances with 4-5 people

They do but the frame is incredibly small and can't really be used outside of frame-perfect shit.
You can have skills that increase your i-frames and makes dodging through shit more viable.

yes
thing is default is like 2 frames so unless you use evasion skills you arent going to roll through most shit without being incredibly good or lucky

>afk in a lobby town
Because they can (technically) have hundreds of players in one area as opposed to MH which only has 4 in a lobby??

FFXIV had to become what it is because the FFXI formula completely falls apart when the server population dwindles. That's why you can solo the most of XI now with AI party members.

FFXIV's lobbies are bigger and more elaborate. Also, more diverse instanced content and social features.

Yes. Also i-frame is plenty big like 0.2 second without anything. You can it on short hitboxes easily, just don't ram yourself into a fucking hipcheck that lasts 2 seconds and a bit.

PSO can have hundreds of people in a lobby too and MH copied PSO.

Yeah all the rolls have pretty tight i-frame windows but you can extend them with certain armor skills making them more viable.

In Generations you also use "adept" style which exchanges your i-frames for activation frames which trigger a special dodge animation where you're briefly invulnerable and can usually follow up with special attacks

Yeah I would love to raid seriously again but the sheer amount of time required every week for wow just makes it impossible in wow at least.

doesnt MHF have like evasion +450 by now

WoW has done that shit since BC, nothing new about that design. Though alot of mmos fail because they don't realize this as truth adn think the ship is sinking when for a year of no new updates players leave in mass and the game officially dies and the devs fuck off to a new project instead of injecting new life into it.

and a dick

Sweet. Should I hunt down evasion skills for GS? I haven't had this much fun since I first ran into Demon's Souls.

You can use them but GS doesn't benefit much from it since it's super mobile normally.
If you're a Lancer however you can pretty much just i-frame through shit for like 5 straight seconds and it's hilarious.

One problem is that PVE content (not counting dungeons and raids of course) is all DPS. There are no quests that truly play to the strengths of tanks or healers, it's just "kill x mob for y."

Greatsword's are considered super mobile?

I've got a ways to go.

Evade uppers on GS isn't typical or terribly ideal. Most the time you're rolling right after you attack anyways. Problem with GS is that you're kinda forced to prioritize the classics and generally left with not a lot of room for QoL skills
>crit draw
>focus
>sharpness +1 if applicable
>quick sheathe/readiness
>attack uppers

What's stopping you from mass pulling enemies as a tank or using crowd control and offensive mitigation as a healer?

Keep the trinity as is, but put a bigger emphasis on the utility and support skills DPS provide.

I feel it would be more valid if they weren't charging a monthly fee during the downtime.

With the right skillset (critdraw, focus, quicksheathe) GS gets most of its damage from unsheathe attacks, meaning that you're going to be running around with your weapon sheathed most of the time waiting for opportunities to strike.

>Evasion +3 on Lance in MH4

It's more that there is no real GS plays that are considered useful besides sprinting around and unsheathing/charge unsheathing when you see opening then going into another charge or slap and charge when the opening is longer.

You are mostly sprinting around and not sticking to the monsters.

Very much, yes.
>but this huge fucking thing makes me walk slow
GS play is
>be sheathed
>get into position
>charge draw attack
>hit
>roll
>sheathe
>get into position...
"Combo GS" is fucking terrible, don't do that. Play LS or SA if you like walking around swinging big sharp objects

>Pay $13 once
>Play all the content there is in 30 days
>Sub runs out and you play other shit until more content is added

Never understood the mentality of people that pays every single month. Why would you keep paying if you already done everything relevant to you?

this

I think he's telling you to quit during the downtime.

would chaining triple charges be fine on downed/trapped stuff or shoudl you sheathe and do another draw charge

Would you guys like an MMO like this?
>Classic Trinity
>Skills are items
>Each character can learn a number of skills
>Classes are there but they provide passive buffs/traits that promotes the use of a category of skills (like: Warrior, when it deals physical damage does X, so you'll use physical damage abilitiues mostly, or Sage, healing over time are much more effective than instant heals etc.)
>Classes and skills can be changed any time in lobby/city like XIV mostly
>gear can also be highly customizable, think an improved version of WoW's old reforge
To limit customization a little and reduce chaos you can also add Element type to each skill, so some classes cannot use some Elements (Pyromancer cannot use Water and Ice skills), or some of them are improved (Fire skills on Pyromancer would do additional effects).
Would be chaotic to balance for the devs tho

I think that's the point of what he's talking about.

There is literally no point in having "builds" in any game over just having static classes.

>skills are items
I'm not sure I follow. If you mean skills can be bought and traded like items, I can see that working.

You should only keep sheathing when you have crit draw skill and if you dont just keep chaining them

>I'm not sure I follow. If you mean skills can be bought and traded like items, I can see that working.
Yes. It means they can be obtained with quests, dungeons or whatever, can also be traded or sold to other players.
>There is literally no point in having "builds" in any game over just having static classes.
If you mean that "players will just stick to the best builds", then yes that's a problem. You could avoid that by making challenging PvE content that requires some kind of switch in skills, either because of the encounter or raid/team composition.
For PvP this is not a problem, meta builds would show up, just like anti-meta ones to counter them, and players would start trying to counter these ones too etc..

You are the reason why gaming is dead.

Chaining is better on stationary targets. Bonus points if you draw -> slap -> overhead -> finisher just before the monster gets up/away. I do recall seeing an old Jhen speedrun where a single GS user would unsheathe, roll, sheathe, and repeat but that was Tri

Classless systems are impossible to balance. The community will always find the best way to deal damage, the best way to mitigate damage and the base way to recuperate.

We're thinking about this the wrong way. As long as content depends on reducing an enemy's HP to 0, minmaxing for damage is the only real consideration for players. The question should be: how do we create content that doesn't necessarily need the trinity?

remove healers and tanks
remove the "Aggro" system and make all content based around skillful action combat with tons of dodging/blocking

the only categories now are DPS, DPS with minor healing ability, and Tanky DPS

too bad pso2 sucks

You described GW2 and it's one of the worst MMOs ever created

Nice non-argument.

>GW2
>tons of dodging/blocking

That's what he's asking nob. How do we make a mmo that doesnt require it

Yes.

>no one posted the doujin version

Remove tanks

Make a game with just dps and healers

Remove tank and dps. Meld them together. Force parties to divide monsters between themselves and actually communicate

>"You described BDO and it's one of the worst MMOs ever created"

Ftfy

I don't see any argument on your side either.

Is it because everyone just picks the best build anyway? Because then the system is obviously flawed if everyone can agree on one build that is the best for every situation.

It did fine for the time. 14 was that and nearly destroyed square a second time

Make combat that doesn't revolve around numbers.

weak spots, dynamic attacks

Make everything one class, but instead of just clicking "Warrior, Mage, Priest" when you create your character, give everyone the same abilities and let them use them the way the want to.

BDO would be pretty good with mobs that aren't just punching bags.
So it's not really a matter of trinity/no-trinity.

then apparently you make a sequel that sucks ass and ruins everything good about the first one

removing healers and building sustain into class kits, allowing you to fuck up only so many times without dying. Skyforge did this and it was a good feature. their supoort roles were buff bitches, and if they could heal, they couldnt heal enough to matter.

The healer role is a crutch for bads, those who play it and get saved by it.

>Because then the system is obviously flawed if everyone can agree on one build that is the best for every situation.
It's unavoidable.

GW2 has millions of players and is getting another successful expansion in a month, it must be doing something right

Destiny did it the best and they're doing it even better in Destiny 2

Copy d&d 4e. I mean people call it a tabletop mmo for a reason*

Expand trinity to be
Tank
Dps
Leader (in charge of buffs and heals)
Controller (debuffs and cc)

And have every class able to choose a secondary role. So you have fighters which are tank primary and dps secondary, and clerics which can be healer/tank or healer/controller, for example

*the reason is memes

>weak spots, dynamic attacks
Have fun keeping your servers up with all that information coming out of every attack.

this guy knows whats up

the trinity is tank healer mez, faggit

make tanks and healers optional
more reliance on mechanical skill than pattern execution

nice try, shill

>another successful expansion

>it has millions of players! no really!

its pretty balanced in ffxiv

the more I get into end game raiding the more I realize how much healers and tanks go out of their way for dps.

You fix the trinity by having all the classes play the same and not have any synergy? Interesting.

Tri didn't have the follow up swing after the super charge move. IIRC the follow up swing does a crazy amount of damage, more than I expected when I looked it up.