Level design is more important than controls

Level design is more important than controls.

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I agree, that's why 3D World is the best.

Sonic 06 says hi.

What do you mean? That game has both shit level design and shit controls.

Level design is only good if it's made with the controls in mind.

That's true, lets see some examples, OP?

He just posted one faggot

Galaxy is too linear

Linearity is good. Open world is shit

Galaxy is the best of the Mario franchise

yes he did.
now let's see a game example.

>Spacejunk Galaxy and Battlerock are great galaxies in the game with great music for both
>they overhype Gusty garden and its theme
I find that galaxy to be the most overrated and the shoved in your ears theme that followed.

>shit controls

thank you. thought I was alone here. the wii remove is the worst controller bar none. never liked how Mario games controlled. there's a reason no other games control like Mario.

No, controls are more important and this meme game is the perfect example

Agreed, but you could have made the point better with Sunshine.
Sunshine had the best controls, but the level design was pretty lame.
Galaxy had decent controls and decent level design.

Galaxy 2 was better though.

oneyplays watcher i see.

Sandbox Mario isn't even "open world" like GTA

387539971
Nice try

Not really, I hate it
saw it on Vinesauce and then Panoots

We're talking about Sonic 06, not Mario.

>When an user tries to be clever but it falls flat
I always feel bad in this situation.

The controls inform the ways in which you interact with the game world.

I would love this game if I didn't have to use the Wii mote.

That game looks way better than it has any right to be

The level design dictates what the world you can interact with is like.

That game is actually good though.
It actually looks like a ps1 game.

yeah, shittily.

>It actually looks like a ps1 game.
i meant in terms of gameplay

I'd say they're both important as they are both needed to have good gameplay.

Indeed. Saying one is more important than the other is pointless and wrong (porong) when both are vital.

Controllers honestly suck
Every time I use the wii remote after a long time of using controllers I'm amazed at the freedom of movement my arms have instead of being trapped stuck together in front of me. Only thing is it could have used more buttons.

They're both important, but that doesn't mean level design isn't *more* important than controls.

>lets have a 3D mario game but make him restricted just like a 2D game

GENIUS

SMG controls legitimately better than SM64.
SM64 feels like buttery shoes on soapy floor

Which is why Galaxy 1 sucks compared to Galaxy 2 and 3D World.

kill yourself. Galaxy is floaty as fuck and waggling to spin is shit

well Mario does too.

Galaxy 1 although inferior to 2 still has solid level design so...

...

Brilliant

they both control exactly the same. and so will odyssey. Nintendo hasn't updated this tired franchise in over 20 years.

you can make 3D Mario like the traditional game yet they'll still suck in comparison

haven't played a 2D Mario this fun since Super Mario Advanced 4, too bad it's another NSMB game.

the reason why Nintendo EPD visibly split the 3D Mario series because they're getting tired of trying to trying to cater both sides with one game (see: 3D World)

look at Sonic Generations/Forces and Metroid: Other M and tell me this wasn't a wise move?

this is a completely irrational statement, good level design serves gameplay and is designed around it

>I have never played Megaman X6

I'd leave it up to personal opinions. If a game seems to have good enough controls, level design might be more apparent. If the level design seems good enough, then poor controls might bother some people. It's the kind of thing that's less dependent on facts, and is more dependent on how a person feels.

This guy wants his hand held through the game and
this guy has down syndrome

Sonic 06 has good both. Never got the problem of sonic 06s controls. Always felt like every mistake was my own fault

That explains Sonic's problem in 3D.

Mania sucks dude

This. For any user who doesn't believe this, look up speedruns of Mario 64 or Sunshine. Now look up speedruns for Galaxy or 3D World. Notice a difference? The former games showcase an enormous skill ceiling, showing how Mario's movements can look so intricate and powerful, taking advantage of the environment in creative ways. The most you get of that in the latter is a well-timed long jump into a spin jump, or a backflip and spin into a wall jump into another spin. It just looks like a normal playthrough with a few slightly impressive jumps. No special things done with speed or momentum.

Nigger

Speenruns autists are the worst kind

But Sunshine is the worst 3D Mario.

>Galaxy is good
>Sunshine is the worst 3D Mario
Memes perpetuated by redditors.

>Most restricted move set (no long jump, no punch)
>Yoshi is hydrophobic
>Hardly any platforming
>Seven worlds
>Each world has the same missions in them (Secret of, red coin, boss, Shadow Mario)
>Shine count is irrelevant towards beating the game
>20 Shines gated behind Blue Coins
Sunshine is genuinely garbage, it's the epitome of a nu-male Sup Forumsedditor game.

I'm sorry, what?

There's a lot of social ineptness in the speedrunning community, but how does somebody who understands a given game better than most people hold a somehow less important opinion than some rando on Sup Forums?

>implying Galaxy is better solely through mission structure and more linear levels

Ignoring the secret course missions, the hover nozzle basically replaces the long jump, and you can technically still backflip out of a spray. Before you say, "but the hover nozzle is just a crutch that trivializes platforming," first explain to me how a long jump somehow requires more skill than hovering, and then, with the knowledge that the hover nozzle simultaneously lowers the skill floor while also raising the skill ceiling, explain how it's a bad mechanic.

Both Galaxy games are infinitely better than Sunshine simply by virtue of being focused on platforming. You also didn't address any of the myriad of other problems such as over half the Shines being worthless to game progression, it having an insultingly low amount of levels (many of which lack any real verticality unlike 64's) and the fact that it's quite clearly an unfinished game with 20 Shines being relegated to Blue Coins. Honestly the limited move set is the least of the game's problems. The Long Jump requires far more skill since once you commit to it you're stuck with it and in 64 it can even be used to go backwards adding more nuance to the movement, you keep bringing up speed running but 64 has far more speed runners than Sunshine because its movement and level design are far better than Sunshine.
Now let's do a quick comparison for Galaxy and Sunshine.

>Galaxy level
>Focused on platforming with wall jumps and long jumps
youtube.com/watch?v=HtHiVa5kg6E

>Sunshine level
>CLEAN THE BEACH IN TIME
youtube.com/watch?v=z4w9mqdzkzQ

>Galaxy level
but that is super mario galaxy 2!

Controls are subjective as far as good and bad go. So long as the players inputs have consistent results and represent what your character is doing on the screen well then all is good. Pretty much the only way to fuck up controls is to have one button press activate a very long action or have the input randomly delayed a number of frames.

at least 3D Land or World doesn't handhold to the goal like in Galaxy 2

Actually really enjoy this argument and want to continue it, but I'm slightly busy and scared of this thread getting archived before I get to respond. You wanna trade Skype info or something?

>No punch
That's barely an argument because Mario 64 is literally the only 3D Mario game with the punch

The dive is a cool option, and the removal of its hitbox in Sunshine was kind of dumb, but the punch itself didn't really add anything platforming-wise, considering you had to be at a standstill to use it.

When Sunshine is trying to emulate 64 as a sandbox platformer and dials back everything that made 64 good it absolutely is.

Not particularly. I've had this conversation numerous times before and I doubt either one of us will change one another's mind.

You only get Bronze Stars if you use that though, which are worthless. Land gives you an invicible raccoon suit if you die enough times

I never got handholded, let alone the option
Maybe you're shit user git gud

>Responding to bait

>and dials back everything that made 64 good it absolutely is.
or, maybe it's not trying to be a typical Mario rehash. letting along the last time Mario platformers did something brand new before Odyssey came in

Sunshine did very little different compare to what Galaxy did. Sunshine was 64 with fewer worlds, more limited move, far worse levels and a non sensical path of progression that only counted Shadow Mario levels.

That's a shame. I'm not really seeking to outright have your or my opinion changed, but you seem like a person who knows what he's talking about, and I'd like to better understand the Galaxy-fan mindset while applying my own biases and opinions to get to the root difference. Just wanna understand different opinions better without worry of a volatile thread death with no way of contact.

64 is objectively better though
BUTT...

galaxy 1&2 are my favorite

Might regret this, but if you change your mind, you contact my Skype at bradley.sanchez1

>the Galaxy-fan mindset
Varied and unique levels, the moment to moment gameplay in the Galaxy games is the best of any platformer I've played. The way the games are able to recontextualize platforming is great whether it's having blocks of a certain disappear when you jump, using Yoshi to eat a fruit that reveals the pathway or using those blue orbs to navigate around lava spikes it always feel fresh whereas Sunshine is doing the same four levels in each of the stages over and over and the missions that aren't derivative all suck like cleaning the beach, bathing Chain Chomps.

If Sunshine was entirely made up of the Galaxy-esque levels where you don't have FLUDD it would probably be my favorite game of all time but sadly those make up around six or so Shines of one hundred twenty.

While that is true, that does not mean that one should be sacrificed for the other. If the controls are absolutely horrid, how could even get across the level?

Great moves, user. Keep it up.