"turn based combat is a relic of the past and is irredeemable and shit bro"

>"turn based combat is a relic of the past and is irredeemable and shit bro"
Is there an easier way to tell if someone was born in the year 2000 than this opinion?

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To be fair, games like FFVII do have aged turn based combat. Recently Atlus has been paving the way to faster and more fun turn based combat with SMTIV and Persona 5.

It's pretty easy to tell if somebody was born in the year 2000 if you look at their ID and it says "under 18 until xx/xx/2018"

Well, if all they played is FF I wouldn't blame them, FF has some of the trashiest combat in turn based systems, even for their time.

the micheal bay generation
>what's happening? they're just standing there!! KILL THEM, GUN SHOTS, EXPLOSIONS, DO SOMETHING

how was persona 5 faster? how do you make turn based combat faster even, shorter attack animations?

I agree with this opinion and I was born in 94

I was born in 1991 though

>Get bored of turn based games being easy
>Play Nocturne on Hard
>Die several times

Turn based is great if you like stratergy but most games allow you to powerlevel to circumvent any difficulty.

Now the dust has settled, can we all agree that Legend of the Dragoon has the best turn based combat system of all time?

>faster and more fun turn based combat with SMTIV and Persona 5.
How is it faster and better?

>most games allow you to powerlevel to circumvent any difficulty.
So do SMT games, I hope you don't think Kaneko's pokemon games are hard.
No, go to bed Lavitz.

>So do SMT games

Nocturne can sure but you'll be powerleveling for a LONG time for that case. Most enemies can still fuck you over if you have demon weaknesses and you can't ideally prepare for every possible enemy encounter. Same with get RNG'd to death.

faster=/=better

I like to think the 2000 babbies don't even have turn based on their radar and don't bother talking about it while the 90s kids are the ones behind the "turn based is bad" shitposting.

It's not that it's a relic, it's just evidently hard to change it to be fresh and has hack productions like Bravely Default/FF "Remakes"/DS Shovelware attached to it. It had its day, develop something new or continue to retread in the steps of better, creative men. Those are the choices. I gave Lost Odyssey a pass because of its storytelling, but I would've preferred a less numbing battle system.

Don't fucking bore me. That's all I ask of video games.
FFVII wasn't boring when it came out, but it's boring now without a doubt. Mainly because I already know the plot, but beyond that. FFVII was engaging for a variety of reasons, and for the same reasons it was critically acclaimed at the time, it is now less engaging; Games got better. They got/get better because there are developers who aren't uncreative hacks like the majority of the fucks Square Enix prefers to keep in their company now. You can't praise old games for being old and dismiss new games for being new. All games were new at one point, and all games theoretically get old.

tl;dr You're a faggot, no surprise

i can see people that grew up in the early 3d era thinking turn based is bad
not because action based is better, but because early 3d turn based was such a fucking slog

Turn based combat is great. ATB is shit though

This. The one good thing about FFX is that they got rid of ATB and just made it properly turn-based.

Yep, that's basically it. FFIX is the biggest offender of super slow loading times and attack animations I can think of. Another aspect is the damage your attacks deal: if average damage done is over 50% of health, it follows that battles are "faster paced" since everyone dies pretty quickly

>but you'll be powerleveling for a LONG time for that case
Not really, as long as you get Charge and Pierce you've already set yourself for easy modo, unless you're playing on the hardest difficulty you don't even need Freikugel.
>Most enemies can still fuck you over if you have demon weaknesses
Nah, if you're not steamrolling random encounters you haven't learned how to play.
And yeah, can can totally prepare for every possible enemy encounter because 90% of the demons you meet are fodder.
>Same with get RNG'd to death.
This really doesn't happen, even if you push the old Mot meme.
>it's just evidently hard to change it to be fresh
Bullshit, you're just looking in the wrong places, turn based systems are extremely varied, you sure won't see much if you only keep on playing the same old FF and DQ clones though, that's for sure.
Besides, people do not actually want real change in turn based games, otherwise we'd be all playing stuff like Unlimited: Saga, Natural Doctrine or Baten Kaitos.

Nah, 2000's babbies just think you're talking about pokemon

But the turn based combat is bad if you don't build a system around it that allows customization.

If you're going to limit me, atleast give something that allows me to work around those limits.

None of the enemies in FFIX have that much HP that fights drag on, though. Even the final boss can die in seven attacks. You're right about the game being slow, though, attack animations take a long time and even starting a battle takes a while.

>Not really, as long as you get Charge and Pierce you've already set yourself for easy modo, unless you're playing on the hardest difficulty you don't even need Freikugel.

I'm not that late in the game user. Maybe late game is easier or when you fuse daisoujou.

>Nah, if you're not steamrolling random encounters you haven't learned how to play.

If you're playing on hard mode and get back attacked chances are you're going to die.

>And yeah, can can totally prepare for every possible enemy encounter because 90% of the demons you meet are fodder.

Don't really see how. Most enemies are random and you're bound to have at least one weakness unless you fuse demons that don't but figuring that out on a blind playthrough it hard.

>This really doesn't happen, even if you push the old Mot meme.

Back attacks and crits on hard mode. Hard mode is RNG central.

That battle was only hard if you turned into a dragoon. That causes her to flip out and start getting 3x as many turns.

I mean I'll be honest, I'm not really looking at all. When I go to look for RPGs I'm looking more for Role-playing, Story, Worldbuilding, etc... It's always a bonus if the combat is good.
It's worth noting that FF's combat systems have actually changed quite frequently throughout it's history, and I hate Dragon Quest for more reasons than the dull combat.

>It's worth noting that FF's combat systems have actually changed quite frequently throughout it's history
I always read this comment and really don't understand.
The only FF that actually changed the combat system and core rules a bit are FFII, VIII and XIII, which are coincidentially the most reviled, everything else works on the same exact, stale basic ruleset with the only difference being whether you can change a character's premade class template in another premade class template, that or you have a generic ability slot system.
How does that counts as change when 90% of the battle system is exactly the same is beyond me, it the same shit as Dragon Quest but somehow it doesn't get the flak DQ gets.

I was pretty surprised when XCOM did as well as it did. Turn based is mostly dead though.

>turn based combat
>FF7

Other than for shit like Civ and Hearthstone, it kinda is. There's zero reason for any RPG or purely single player game to have a proper turn based system.

kys 17 year old

>There's zero reason for any RPG or purely single player game to have a proper turn based system.
>RPG
>No dicerolls
>Player active skills
Your action-adventure games with routes aren't RPGs.

>FFVII
>turn-based

top kek

RPG genre is dead.

Born 1989. It's fucking shit. I grew up playing those games and I can't fucking stand them now. They are just following the same formulaic shit without improving on it and never have any kind of mechanical or strategic depth above just being a Final Fantasy clone. The retards that love this shit unconditionally are the same ones that bought dogshit like SMT IV and think that was a good game, or that Deus Ex HR was a good "stealth" game.

I think the remake needs to keep the turn based combat, 90 second long summoning animations, and three minute long supernova attack.

j"rpg" turn based has always been brainless noob shit

X-XV all play fairly differently, despite XV being the only one that isn't strictly speaking a turn-based variant.
XII, XIII, and XV get flak for their battle systems being unengaging, and that's alright, but at least it's something different. DQ is the Doctor Who of Sup Forumsidya. It never changes, and despite taking very little effort to develop gameplay and graphically, the production team absolutely refuses to write an engaging plot with half-decent characters. That's my beef with DQ, personally. I'd replay XV a thousand times over before touching another DQ. I played III a long time ago and it was great, and then I tried to play a half-dozen other entries and realized I was playing the same exact thing except on a few occasions involving a DS where it was the same thing except with eye cancer-inducing graphics.

I don't mind DQ existing, it just isn't my jam. I'd rather a developer try and fail to make something new than to be content with repetition and mediocrity.

Ideally, in turn based games every action matters and fights are designed with that in mind.

Too bad the gameplay in these games is mostly garbage because it's hard to balance around games where you can grind.

MGQ was actually enjoyable gameplay wise because it was balanced around the exact statistics and skills of a single character, even if most of the battles were gimmicky.

Action games are easier to make design wise, you 'just' need to add a number of attacks with different speeds, hitboxes and damage. The player is expected to react in real time, getting hit by a strong attack is just their fault.

Reminder that the PS4 version of FF7 has a button on the controller that refills your HP and MP at any time and another button that disables encounters

also no option to turn them off

that's what you snob weeb fucks get for shiting on turn based with real time phase

the best part is when I invite those same people to play a fighting game, the epitome of REAL TIME COMBAT, they decline saying "nah bro fighting games are trash".

Same with Bravely Default. I mean not that any of these games would be hard, but this is just a testament to how lazy game designers are.

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absolutely vile

>SE will never go back to smaller scale battle systems like ATB or XII's real time combat

damn shame

ATB was trash that defeated its own point and XII is a poor man's single player MMO with autobattle.

I wouldn't give people too much shit for the speed up one. Remember in the original seven there was no skipping shit and certain summons take forever. But fucking god mode??

I enjoy FFXIV's battle system despite it being standard hotbar mmo stuff

I can agree to this
Timing button presses should have become as common as selecting your move from a menu as an aspect of turn based battles.

Turn Based RPGs fail immediately as soon as you introduce concepts like leveling up. As soon as you do so, any fight is either a cakewalk or the enemy trounces you, rarely are you ever offered a real challenge that requires you to use all of the items and skills at your disposal (because after all, you're likely going to be going up against several dozen random encounters before you get to an established boss fight, which you are expected to reach at full health with an ample amount of resources).

I played more than enough turn based games in the 80s and 90s when I was a kid. Especially enjoyed the whole Might and Magic series. There's no reason to make an RPG turned based. It's lazy and dull. Even the simplest real time action game has more challenge and requires more thought than nearly any turn based game (unless said action game is also an RPG which will also devolve into you overpowering everything quickly).

Turn based strategy? Sure, I'm in. I'll play Advance Wars. There's no leveling up or other stupid RPG systems, statistics are fixed - you get what you get and you make the most of it. The missions are designed around winning with and against a specific force. That's good turn based. Not RPGs. Fuck turn based RPGs.

If only there was a mod that removed luck in aw completely. Playing against nell or getting fucked over as sonja is not fun.

There is no grinding in normal RPGs. That's a common myth. Grinding only exists in MMORPGs.

In most games you only need to grind for 10 minutes in every area. Going from Lv 98 to Lv 99 while grinding the boss with the most exp in a normal RPGs takes less time than grinding from Lv 15 to Lv 16 in a fucking MMORPG.

>Wanting QTE cancer even in turn based RPGs
No, the only games that did real time inputs well without jeopardizing the RPG part of the game was Unlimited SaGa, and to an extent Shadow Hearts.
>Muh stats
Fuck off brainlet, people have been making low level speedruns since ages.

Child of Light did ATB really well though

....Ruin...has come to our family....

You remeber our verable house: opulent and imperial...

>Atlus has been paving the way with games that copy pasted gameplay from their decade old predecessors

I wouldn't even say it's necessarily 90s kids. I think it's just shills (Reddit/SA/whatever) trying to astroturf here.

>Underage till

I pity whichever your country Is if its government can't trust its police force to do basic math.

That wasn't my point at all.

My point is that the strength of turn based games is that every action matters, therefore there is much more control in the hands of the developer compared to action rpgs where you can just slap some attacks on an enemy and it's up to the player to dodge them.

This single advantage is removed by the fact that the developer doesn't know exactly the statistics and skills possessed by the player when the fight occours.

...

>This single advantage is removed by the fact that the developer doesn't know exactly the statistics and skills possessed by the player when the fight occours.
Except they can, there's lots of games with fixed growth, doesn't make them any harder than those that have normal growth.
If you're bitching so much about stats though you can still try low level runs, RPGs, like most other genres, can be adjusted to whatever challenge you want.

They do it on purpose so even children can finish the game. You wouldn't believe how often I died in my first play through of FF9 when I was like 8. I also ignored a shit ton of sidequests, dialogue, mechanics, everything. I didn't even keep track which monster gave what amount of exp. If I was too weak too finish a boss I grinded until I could finish him.

Developers never expect you to spend 2 fucking hours in an area and then complain that the game was too easy. It's your own fault if you grind too much.

I don't mind Turn based combat. What I mind is the game screeching to a halt because of overly long animations, HP sponge enemies, unavoidable random encounters, and the underlying systems being either idiotically trivial or needlessly complicated. Any fucking hack can make a JRPG but making a good one that balances all aspects above is fucking rare, never mind finding one with an enjoyable storyline.

as soon as final fantasy stopped using turn based, it went to shit.

What would you call a good JRPG then?
So after III?
I can agree with that.

>Recently Atlus has been paving the way to faster and more fun turn based combat
You would have a point if it wasn't for the "recently" part. Modern SMT didn't start with IV. And there more valid examples besides Atlus RPG's.

As I played every fucking Final Fantasy back in the day, I wished one day I'd be able to play a non-turn-based version.
It turned out to suck, but not due to the real time gameplay. The past was kinda shitty and you know it.

But X brought it back, and it has arguably one of the best and most tacticool combat systems of the main series. Tood bad it lacked on many other things, though.

>Comparing Chess to American football
WEW

>tfw you realize people born in year 2000 are 17 years old

>tfw you realize Hitler died 72 years ago and the Jews are still here

I'm a jew and find this offensive af. Reporting you right now.

>turn based combat is a relic of the past

This idea is no longer relevant, we have a fucking turn based Ubisoft Mario now.

What???? But I meant it in a good way. A good, a good! P-please don't report me to your feminist overlords

And some people have done Terraria without jumping. That doesn't mean shit about the base game and what the average player does with it.

...

I'm offensive and I find this Jewish as fuck.

>And some people have done Terraria without jumping.
What does that have to do with low level speedruns?
>That doesn't mean shit about the base game and what the average player does with it.
You do realize this statement can be applied to any game ever made, do you?

>muh Jews
Please you own like 90% of the world what the hell you want 100%?

They're right though, combat should be action oriented like in Parasite Eve.

>What does that have to do with low level speedruns?
Gimping yourself and establishing tougher rules than the game encourages you to play under. Everyone grinds in RPGs, just as everyone jumps in Terraria.
>You do realize this statement can be applied to any game ever made, do you?
You get the point then. Low level speedruns mean jackshit. The very existence of levels means the game can be cheesed.

...

That's not necessarily an "easy mode", though. It just reduces the annoyance of repetitive random encounters. You're still giving up all the EXP and JP you'd get from grinding those battles, which would make the boss fight even harder than it normally would be.

The reason Lenus was hard for most people isn't because SHE is hard, it's because people didn't spend enough time preparing. You never really need to level in LoD but one or two outside the obligatory boss battles does help, as well as having up to date equipment. The biggest issue though is most new players don't spend any time leveling their additions up, so they don't have solid ways to deal out damage and build up SP. Last time I played through LoD, I didn't once turn into a Dragoon outside when the game forced it, because honestly it doesn't make the game easier, it actually hurts you because you cannot defend, cannot use items and are stuck with your one elemental magic and Low MP pool.
As for better turn based combat, LoD is one of my all time faves, but there are better systems out there. Legend of Legaia is a little more interactive.

>Hitler died 72 years ago

or did he?

Ok, ok, I'll let it pass this time. But promise me you'll buy my game again

>Gimping yourself and establishing tougher rules than the game encourages you to play under
One thing is ignoring mechanics, another is limiting their use.
>Everyone grinds in RPGs
No? Only scrubs grind in RPGs, many RPGs don't have grind altogether either.
>The very existence of levels means the game can be cheesed.
And? I miss the point of this statement, any game can be cheesed, what does that have to do with RPGs in particular?

>Everyone grinds in RPGs

Not really. We used to when we didn't know better. I've been playing some SNES-PS1 era JRPG's lately and didn't need to grind a bit.

Depends on the mood, but I still hold Chrono Trigger to a gold standard. The systems have just the right amount of complexity while still making it easy to jump in. Paper Mario TTYD and FFV are also favorites.

Don't be stupid, this was my exact reaction to Super Mario RPG when my friend showed it to me in the fucking 90s. I didn't understand why Mario didn't just jump on the enemies. If you've never been exposed to the genre before, it doesn't make sense.

The only JRPGs that require some grinding are either Dragon Quest games or NES games.

>I don't grind, that means no one grinds
Some games can give you a bad time regardless of level, but most (like DQ) are often reduced to mashing A.

As much as i prefer turn based i have to admit the system was born of limitations, as a place holder. Don't you remember playing these back in the days and picturing in your head the actions taking place in real time ?

Turn based combat you see in most JRPGs is shit .

>Turn Based RPGs fail immediately as soon as you introduce concepts like leveling up. As soon as you do so, any fight is either a cakewalk or the enemy trounces you
That's the point. The game is either a constant statcheck or too easy to bother learning all the fancy options, unless you decide to do a low level speedrun, which really isn't the rule at all.

Why do you faggots hate grinding so much? I find it relaxing and fun. You see your characters grow. You grow attached to them. You kick ass. You get closer to your dream of becoming the strongest in the world.

Grinding is the work.
Defeating bosses and advancing in the story and unlocking "new freedom" is the reward.

No reward without work but you NEETs aren't used do that. Even in fucking strategy games you have to grind resources before you can build buildings.

see Dragon Quest is grindy by default, but that doesn't mean the majority of JRPG's that came after are like that. You can manage in most games like FF, SMT, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, etc etc etc, if you cast the right spells and learn how to distribute damage to maximize efficency. Git gud.

>The systems have just the right amount of complexity
I can't really take you seriously here user, I respect your tastes, but CT is bottom of the barrel gameplay for me.
>>I don't grind, that means no one grinds
Only people who can't understand how to play RPGs need to grind, that or you're playing DQ or Wizardry I era stuff.
>but most (like DQ) are often reduced to mashing A.
I don't deny what you're saying, but the same is true for WRPG, and any genre really.
Games with actually sensible design are really only a handful for any and all genres, it's not a prerogative of RPGs, japanese or western.

You can't condemn an entire genre because the majority is easy, casual shit, all genres are like that.
>i have to admit the system was born of limitations, as a place holder.
Nice meme, except the first JRPGs were action based games like Xanadu.

>the game is boring because I chose to play the most boring way possible
Wow

Having your effort/reward mechanism fucked up since childhood is more of a normie thing.