Can we talk about FFXII? I'm its biggest fan yet its most ardent critic. However, I think it, more than any other entry...

Can we talk about FFXII? I'm its biggest fan yet its most ardent critic. However, I think it, more than any other entry, is a "you either love it or you hate it" ordeal. Still, it's a technical marvel and should be lauded for its sheer scope. When it comes to pure exploration, XII outclasses all others, imo.

And no, I don't think the dev crisis is a good enough excuse for the large gaps in the story. Still, they managed to give every character their own satisfactory arcs. Even Vaan grows the fuck up by the end.

Anyways, what is it that turned you on or off about it?

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Extremely boring story and bad pacing mainly. Also the original skill system was poor.

Still waiting on that Steam release

Likes
>Balthier, Ashe, and Basch are good characters
>world design is interesting
>good art style
Dislike
>MMO gameplay
>badly paced story
>lackluster skill system
>bad map layouts
>mediocre OST
>Vaan, the protagonist, is a non-character

It's been vastly improved in IZJS and now TZA. Worth a second try if you're up to it.

You and me both, brother.

Why are asses just so good?

I had a Ps2 copy back in the day, and the game put me to sleep. I literally fell asleep while going through that one snowy area.

>mediocre OST
Fuck off stupid nigger

Must be something biological. I especially appreciate how the proportions of the characters aren't overstated. They've got realistic body types... well, minus the Amazon bunny girl.

>Ashe, and Basch are good characters

opinion discarded

Because you're assy mcgee

I've been avoiding the remastered OST like the plague. I wanna experience it fresh on Steam.

The remastered OST is just superior. Just as good of a remaster as the KH1 and 2 OSTs

Easily one of the best orchestral soundtrack in a video game.

>Bad MMO gameplay
I liked it at first. But it's kind of worn off on me. I still kind of like the dual class system and new gambits of zodiac age, though.

Only characters in the whole game I actually liked were Balthier, Fran and the weird ambassador from some foreign country who looked like a Jojo character and wore cool shades and had an accent. Everybody else was so dour and lifeless. And the story had nothing to do with any of the cool characters, but was all about some political crap that I couldn't care less about.

If they made a spinoff game that was just Balthier and Fran having a pirate adventure between the two of them, I would buy it in an instant. Balthier was so cool and smooth and suave, like a cross between Han Solo and James Bond, and while Fran on her own was dull, the fact that she was always next to Balthier and there was constant obvious sexual tension between them elevated her too.

You're just a brainlet user

It's okay if you can't understand the deep political plot :)

>Balthier
Snarky One Liner: The Character
>Ashe
Lightning Alpha
>Basch
Generic hedge knight

I do agree with you on Vaan though.
>"Let's make the protagonist whose view the game is seen from be a simple passive observer."
Overall the entire cast except for Fran and Penelo was shit.

Nature wants to ensure continuation of the species.

There's a difference between "understand" and "care".

I don't get why everyone loves Balthier so much, he seems to be just like this user says. Granted, I barely was able to get a few hours into the game before I was bored out of my mind, does he do anything particularly interesting later on?

>Deep plot
>FF12

You're only allowed to pick one.

It's pretty rare for me to get excited over announcements these days, but like two weeks ago when they made some big deal over an announcement for this game I was legitimately hype. I thought for sure it'd be a Steam release. I played FXII back in like 2007 and loved every minute of it. I consider my favorite FF and one of my favorite JRPGs. I was so ready to revisit to again ten years later.

Then the announcement just ended up being some PS4 theme in Japan. I've never felt so fucking disappointed before in my life.

The snark is a good contrast to how blindingly boring and stoic the rest of the cast is, it's the only reason I liked him at least

Vaan wasn't the protag. This didn't really have one.

Fran is sexy chewbacca

I've been playing through it for the first time with Zodiac Age, and I've been enjoying myself. At this point (returning to Bhujerba after Leviathan events), I find the parts I'm still struggling on are deciding what licenses I should be pursuing first for every character, and how to make the gambit system work for me.

I see what you mean by it being a love it or hate it ordeal, but for me personally, I'm like 7/8 like it 1/8 hate it. I don't mind the MMO gameplay and wouldn't have even minded if that was the direction FF took for the next decade. Better than whatever the fuck FFXV was. Also the fucking ass game in FF12 is top tier.

The only one in the cast I would describe as stoic is Basch and maybe Fran

He was the protagonist in the sense that he was the controlled character and the first character you are introduced to after the prologue. To say that there was no protagonist is simply not true and even it was, it makes the game even worse compared to the aforementioned grievance.

would've been better if you could change jobs whenever you wanted.

>When it comes to pure exploration, XII outclasses all others, imo.
Don't know about that, the game's still very much linear so exploration is just an illusion with little consequence on the game, it is better than other FF, but the bar's set so low it doesn't amount to much, if anything at all in the end.
>what is it that turned you on
The return to the roots of having everyone being able to use anything and having a more freeform character building instead of the garbage standards from other games in the series where someone like a dragoon can't use swords just because.
>or off about it?
It's pretty much still a modern, story driven FF game, with all that entails.
High production values for sure and the game looks pretty much amazing especially considering the hardware it runs on, but it has very little substance and absolutely atrocious basic design and gameplay, whoever thought about making that pseudo MMO system should have been shot, this was the same mentality that created atrocities like FFXIII.

Characters and plot are the same boring Matsuno stuff you can find in any of his works, down to the usual "it was the Demons/Lucavi/Occuria all along, guise" plot twist, the setting is great but it's absolutely ruined by having zero depth and having a cast made up entirely of humans outside of Fran when there's multiple races.
Battles are boring and the only "challenge" he game has is surviving the boredom of seeing it play itself, and even if you do take on the tedium of actually inputting commands on one character the game still flows passively because there's really not a lot of depth to it, nor is it satisfying to learn, because again, there's fundamentally no challenge.

It's a mediocre game all in all, masked by high production values and some pretty good buttocks, but still mediocre.

Agreed! but that may be because I played the tactics games before this one so I'm more used to the systems there.

I don't see how.
6 didn't have a main character either.

The combat and gambit systems need another chance in another game for just that right amount of refinement so everyone can actually appreciate them.

sounds like you only played the main story, if you even finished that.

>White panties under red skirt
That's wrong. Look at the model rip

Also the fact that the game always forces you to switch back to Vaan inside towns kind of shows what his place in the game is.

Played it all the way down to Yazmat back in the days.

>And the story had nothing to do with any of the cool characters, but was all about some political crap that I couldn't care less about.

The problem with the story is that it basically ends before it actually kicks into high gear.

Ass too big

He is charismatic, but still has flaws. His relationship with his father is sad but not overly dramatic like a lot of JRPG relationships, so it ends up feeling plausible and I even dare say human.

Both him and Fran ran away from home and could never really look or go back. In the end, they are like a family, be it out of necessity or affection.

>high production values


>painted on abs

Dude this is a 200 hour game if you do all the side content, AND every second of it is unbelievably boring. You can't fault people for zooming through the main story.

Only reason I think this isn't as bad as FF13 is because it does have proper cities.

Not really. The game can't decide if the pomp and snark are just covers for how he truly feels about the events going on around him.

The problem with the story is that it spends over 100 hours to do what it should have done in the first 10-15. The pacing is atrocious. There's like ten hours of nothing between things actually happening.

I mean when your complaints is that the game doesn't have proper exploration and that it "story driven" I think its entirely relevant that you ignored the side content, of which there is more than any other FF game.

This is a 18+ website

In fact didn't they add a fast forward button to the re-release? That shows it all, doesn't it? Even the devs know the slow pacing was a problem.

penelo's ass was just fine.

The main story is only like 40 hours long though, and that's probably if you go slowly

I did it in 10 in my NG+ (level 90)

could've fooled me.

To be fair, doing the side content can really fuck up the pacing of the story, which is pretty wonky to begin with. Though I don't quite agree with entirely. I played through the game again recently, doing only plot stuff, and while it still has issues, its not AS bad as most people make it out the be. The biggest gap in story stuff is just after Bur-Omisace heading to Archades.

>a 18

trolling is a art

FFXII is a game that I always wanted to love back when I got it on PS2, but I could never maintain interest in it past Golmore or so. Glad the Zodiac Age came along and gave me the excuse to finally see it through. Really loved the remaster, the job system and all the bells and whistles (ESPECIALLY the fast forward function and the transparent map) definitely gave the game the extra boost it needed to be top 5 Final Fantasy material.

Game also has the sexiest main cast of any game in the series, bar none.

If you don't grind (even better: avoid as many fights as possible), the combat system is incredibly fun; the bosses and marks are all challenging and your full skillset is usable and helpful.

If only they'd cut the roster in half.

They added that because of the silly RNG things the game has, not because of the pacing.

>tfw no good Penelo doujins

With a handful of exceptions, I'd say. Lowtown went from one of the best songs in the original, to one of the worst in the remaster. But some songs are waaaay better remastered, like Eruyt Village.

>mean when your complaints is that the game doesn't have proper exploration
The game doesn't have proper exploration in fact.
If it had proper exploration it would let me go anywhere from the get go at my own leisure, which it doesn't.
>and that it "story driven"
Are you really trying to say that FFXII isn't story driven? With all those cutscenes?
You don't even have any input on the story as a player, it's the usual FF soap opera you just watch passively.
>I think its entirely relevant that you ignored the side content, of which there is more than any other FF game.
Most of the side content is not only extremely boring like the other user said, it's basically a huge laundry list to get loot or marks off your wanted monsters lists, and there's very little of it that isn't pointless flavour text, almost all of the actual important stuff and exposition happens during the main story, everything else is you playing errand boy for someone with some rare inbetween in which there is some vague sprinkle of lore.

>remastered lowtown theme
>bad
youtube.com/watch?v=nc3Zy6Fu8MQ

listen to that bassoon bud

Zero AAA games let you go anywhere in their world from the beginning.

I have tried on five separate occasions to get into FFXII, but the developers just insist on making the game a fucking sleep aid. I get about 6 hours in and then give up because the game is just a monumental bore. None of the events are interesting, Vaan is a non-entity, the combat is offline-MMO tier, and every thing is designed to put me to sleep.

I'm slightly tempted to give it one more shot with Zodiac Age but I don't feel like wasting my money.

>If it had proper exploration it would let me go anywhere from the get go at my own leisure, which it doesn't
Why do you feel this way? There are plenty of games that are wide-open from the word go, but Final Fantasy has never, ever been that. Why would you expect it to be? There is a middle ground. In fact, one of the best aspects of the game is that it rations out the exploration so you don't get overwhelmed or bored of it.

Not really true, and that doesn't change the fact that FFXII still has no proper exploration and just bottlenecks you until the next story segment in which a new area opens up.

>If a game has cutscenes it is story driven
You're and actual fucking retard. I think this post chain proves you completely wrong.
No one can agree how long this game is because it is content-driven. People get lost doing the side stuff then complain the game is too slow paced.

Not true.

It sounds like you want every RPG to be Skyrim. Why not just stick to Bethesda games if you're not on board with a game that places emphasis on its main campaign in addition to having a world full of optional stuff to find?

>There is a middle ground. In fact, one of the best aspects of the game is that it rations out the exploration so you don't get overwhelmed or bored of it.

The weirdest thing is you can get access to the Mosphoran Highwaste early, but its so easily missed because its contained in the most random side-quest.

I don't think so. If the RNG was the only issue, they could simply have multiplied the drop/appearance rates of everything by a huge number. I think they were aware that the game wastes dozens of hours of the player's time on pure bullshit and that modern players would not stand for that.

Skyrim doesn't let you go anywhere from the beginning. You have yet to name a single game.

It's okay, but the combat is shit

>bottlenecks you until the next story segment in which a new area opens up

EVERY GAME DOES THAT. By your ludicrous standard no game has "proper exploration".

>modern players
They added that feature in 2007, over 10 years ago.

>There are plenty of games that are wide-open from the word go, but Final Fantasy has never, ever been that.
I know, and I don't expect it to be either, I was just pointing out that, like all FF, it doesn't have exploration in the actual sense.
It is a lot more open than pretty much any other game in the series, that much is certain, but it still doesn't amount to much for those who want actual exploration, that's my point.
First off, I fucking despise Bethesda shit.
And again, I was just pointing out that there's no actual exploration like there is in other games, why the fuck can you FF fags can't take even a little bit of completely inoffensive and candid criticism?
It's always like that with you people.
>EVERY GAME DOES THAT.
Not really, no.
Play more RPGs, you evidently need to.

Yeah the combat system was absolutely terrible. The only good thing about the combat was that you could make the game play itself during it.

Name a game with "actual" exploration cunt

You're arguing that the game is uninteresting because it's not something it's not trying to be. For what it wants to be, the game is excellent. I don't understand what you're trying to prove.

The combat would be better if it gave the player more initiative. Like when you have gambits off, you have to manually move your characters into place, and still select something from the menu to engage auto-attack. So the early hours still have that active feel to it. With gambits on, the game, as much as I love it, does almost quite literally play itself. If the game had it where, when you had gambits on, you still had to manually position your characters and confirm attacks after the atb bar fills (for the character you're controlling), it might've alleviated some problems. Of course I suppose it would be possible to play the entire game with gambits off, but I tried this for a bit and it felt pretty cumbersome, since the game isn't built like a traditional turn-based rpg.

I think the game is engaging with gambits as they are now, but admittedly only if you go for maximum efficiency rather than make a set of "catch all" gambits and never touch them. It's pretty fun to go in and change your gambits mid-combat as a response to things happening around you. It almost gives a sense of a God game, where you aren't controlling characters, so much as you're issuing orders and watching your minions act them out.

Combat was totally dope for me because it was obviously an upgraded version of FFXI, an MMO.

FFXII story sucked ass because Vaan never received any character development. He ends up as a nobody that just happen to tag along with real heroes.

youtube.com/watch?v=NpcLUGqWanM

I'd suck Gideon Emery

>so much as you're issuing orders and watching your minions act them out.

I always liked to think of it as a general issuing orders to their troops. In fact, I think the gambit system could work if expanded immensely to where you control several groups of units. Like a pseudo-rts (but not like Revenant Wings).

FFXII has any number of flaws but anyone who says the game is lacking in exploration is absolutely retarded and must have never played the game before. The world is more open ended than any other FF, than any other JRPG, and even more so than 90% of most WRPGs.

Metal Max?
Daggerfall?
Romancing SaGa 3?
Gothic 3?
I'm arguing that the game is uninteresting because it fails to make justice to its setting, it has mediocre gameplay and content, and has very little RPG elements on top of that, though that's FF in general.
Is it a good FF? I'd personally say yes, in fact it's one of the more expanded in terms of both gameplay and setting, possibly the most expanded.
Is it a good game? I don't know, can't say it's anything but mediocre given all the stuff that it does wrong.

>If the game had it where, when you had gambits on, you still had to manually position your characters and confirm attacks after the atb bar fills

Only thing that would do is remove the one thing that alleviates the pain of the garbage combat system. The problem with the system isn't that the player is allowed to sidestep it. The problem with the system is that literally any action, any fucking action at all from selecting a skill to launching an attack, has multi-second pauses associated with it while the characters shuffle into position or go through their long-ass attack or recovery animations. Instead of the attack starting the second you press X, you have to wait and wait and you have to do the same thing to the next character and it's such a loose, uncomfortable feeling. It feels like you're not in control of anything, you're just giving suggestions to the AI.

I want all execution delays removed from the system. When I tell Vaan to attack Turdmutt 1, the attack should hit a split second after I give the command. By the time my finger raises, he's already there. If Vaan is not in the correct position, he should teleport instantly to the correct position. Have delays AFTER the attack has been completed, not BEFORE.

>The world is more open ended than any other FF, than any other JRPG, and even more so than 90% of most WRPGs.
You don't play many JRPGs or WRPGs, that much is certain.

This is a good game.

Am I the only person in the world who liked Revenant Wings?

You know what, I don't think you have played the game. Yes, you're story gated into areas, but the areas you can explore at any given time are fucking _enormous_, bigger than in any Final Fantasy game by a mile. You can enter extremely late-game areas within the first third of the story.

Your examples at stink of deception, like you're just listing off the most obscure RPGs you know hoping that nobody in the thread has played them. And you still haven't given a definition for "proper exploration":

Desire for ass is written into our DNA so that we are compelled to copulate, it exceeds the mind and it's just natural lust in our body that we can't control.

>like you're just listing off the most obscure RPGs you know
Is this satire?

How come FF12 is the only final fantasy where its critics have never actually played the game?

What is with that?

It was fine I guess. The novelty of an rts on the DS wore off pretty quickly. A remake on a different console or even PC wouldn't be too bad.

>upgraded version of FF XI
Not really. With the scripts I wrote for XI I can handle a 6 man party that can do more than XII gambits. XII didn't even have any positioning or needed you to time attacks that at all.
If anything it's a highly watered down version of XI.

Give me a good class for Ashe and rabbit lady so I can have a near all female party.

DO anons switch members in and out for special duty like healing?

It was a solid 2.5/5 game that I put down about five hours in to play other games I was more interested in.

So anons, shota is the best or no?

Bushi/Knight is probably the best combination in the game. Honestly, just don't make anyone a Machinist and you'll be fine.

Do you know the difference between how open the world is and how much exploration it has? You do realize these two things have almost nothing to do with each other right? That games can have exploration and not be open world, and that games can be open world and not have exploration?