If you sided with the Stormcloaks, you hate progress and stability and love Elves taking over Tamriel...

If you sided with the Stormcloaks, you hate progress and stability and love Elves taking over Tamriel. Even most Nords admit that Ulfric is a power hungry fraud and that a united Empire is still the best change against the Dominion.

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en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius
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I knew he looked familiar.

The Empire is already collapsing dummy. Hammerfell, Morrowind, Argonia, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and the Summerset Isles have already cut off ties.

Your "Empire" consists of a war-recovering Cyrodill, half of Skyrim, and High Rock. What a progressive and stable land.

The Redguards, Argonians, and Stormcloaks are ready and willing yo oppose the Aldmeri; the Empire prevents their association.

If you wanna support the guys who cucked to some elves so that their elites wouldn't be killed you can, but you're just delaying the inevitable. This is Tamriel's fourth Empire; the destiny of all empires is to rise and then fall.

no fucking shit. have you ever heard of a red herring? Stormcloaks were designed to be the "cool" choice to the new player starting out. Then when you join up you find out Ulfric is a douchebag and on your second playthrough you go Imperial, the right choice.

Hurr durr, the people that try to execute you for no fucking reason are nicer than the guy who helped you live.

Imperials are for those that enjoy taking it in the ass from dihharea elves. Don't see anything wrong with Ulfric, he doesn't suck DB's dick but that doesn't mean he's a bad leader.

I'd personally prefer Galmor Stone-Fist be in charge, but he lacks charisma. Ulfric's interested partly in his own power, yes. But that doesn't mean he's wrong.

...

>stormcucks can't see the grand scheme of things
simpletons

You were in the wrong place at the wrong time and the bitch captain on duty happened to have a massive murder boner. This has no bearing on the actuall politics.

You give the writers too much credit.

For those who still believe in Ulfrics cause, the final proof should be the documents that prove that the Aldmeri Dominion sees Ulfric as an asset. They want the civil war to continue and Ulfric to win. This is because... more unified Tamriel is difficult to deal with in the inevitable next phase of the war.

I... I just googled imperial legion!

What's the grand scheme? For the Empire to have trouble beating half a nation of rebels then somehow regain Morrowind, Black Marsh, and Hammerfell (all of which hate them) to oppose the Aldmeri?

Imperials are retarded, your Emperor was killed (as Oblivion's death of Mannimarco confirms that guild quests DO happen) your Empire is going to collapse, you're cucking for literally no reason.

No, they don't. They want the conflict to continue. Stop lying to support your cucks.

A Stormcloak Skyrim can contact Hammerfell, Morrowing, and Argonia without Imperial laws restricting it, a large organized force.

>We'll kick out elves, I swear!!!

>That reading comprehension
They don't want Ulfric to win you brainlet, it's even mentioned in the documents you base your opinion on. United empire doesn'r mean shit when Thalmor has access to every document it prints. Even if empire finally decides to attack they can't win if elves know about their every move.

>Skyrim seeking help from elves
Hah. Skyrim/Hammerfell dream team is all you need

elves reproduce slower than humans, the empire can beat them in the long run, also if those country don't want to cooperate with the empire how is it the empire's fault?

>as Oblivion's death of Mannimarco confirms that guild quests DO happen

Don't be an idiot. It's possible it happened but we don't know. It's impossible for all questlines and all choices therein to all be canon. For example what if the player destroyed the DB with the legion? We don't know if that happened.

The grand scheme of things is unified rather than apart. The Imperials are not as defeated as you seem to think, this tactical peace period is just what they need, though the rebellion in skyrim is partially wasting that breathing time which is why it is idiotic. If you wanna pray to your god, do it privately and don't be an ass and ruin the war for the entire continent for 'muh sovereignty'. The Empire has been good for Skyrim all this time.

Pretty much, yeah. But the Dunmer fucking hate the Thalmor as much as the Empire, they'd likely want in on the action.

It would make me so wet. I don't mind Dunmer though, those three would make a great alliance

Everything good that ever happened in Tamriel is thanks to the Empire. Also a lot of the bad things. But hey. The legion is cool and Stormcloaks smell.

>muh sovereignty

grow up. you're betraying your empire and endangering the continent for personal gain.

Elves can live for thousands of years... birthrates are irrelevant in that context.

The nations left the Empire because they let the Thalmor fuck with them.

Empire cucks know nothing about the lore.

Game is so poorly written that both sides are garbage

No joke, My first character was a High elf, and when I heard about the rebellion trying to be independent, my first thought was "FUCK YEAH, AMERICA!" then I learned more about them, but by then it was too late, and of course, the game wouldn't let me confront him about this, and it certainly wouldn't let me kill him. So I re-rolled as an imperial, and fought the good fight.

You're right, regardless the main point is that they see Ulfric as an asset and have for a long time, and that this civil war is pretty much the greatest thing ever for them. If you mostly just care about Skyrim being sovereign, then fine, but If you care about improving chances against the elves than there's no doubt it's retarded to do this rebellion right now.

the elves control the eye of magnus tho
fuck nords
chinese master elf

Honestly the empire are the good guys.
Have you forgotten that the Empire send many volunteers and their most seasoned generals to help Hammerfell fight the Aldmeri Dominion.
Stormcloaks are controlled oposition

Explain to me how the Empire is going to regain Morrowind, how will they gain back the Argonians? How will they conscript the Redguards? All of these nations left because the Empire is weak or because they let the Thalmor (who are now in charge of the Empire) fuck around in their territory.

You Empire fags are dumb as fuck. Your Empire is literally two and a half nations.

>Elves can live for thousands of years... birthrates are irrelevant in that context.
it's not irrelevant in wars, retard
>The nations left the Empire because they let the Thalmor fuck with them.
they had to defend the white gold tower, also they left some legions back in hammerfell that's why they sandnigger succeded, ungrateful fucks

>let the Thalmor fuck with them

What were they supposed to do?

The Empire is corrupt, weak, crumbling, and thoroughly infiltrated and controlled by its enemies. It is doomed.

I do agree that ultimately the Stormcloaks should not have fought their war, but I say that only on strategic terms. The Empire will collapse anyway so the Stormcloaks may as well harass Thalmor but leave the Empire alone and just wait. Easy to say I suppose when it isn't YOUR family being dragged away in the night or YOUR beliefs being suppressed.

The Empire has no moral ground to stand on.

Not let the Thalmor control them to protect the elites in their capital. They took troops from other nations, got them killed, then said "lol, Thalmor can do whatever they want now, don't be upset though. Just take this, we'll fight back later, pinky swear."

They would see Tullius as an asset if Skyrim was independent from the start, that doesn't change shit. Empire isn't interested in fighting elves, nor do they have capability to do so. Pretty much everyone hates them for being weak cucks and out of the two sides Ulfric has better chances at forming alliance against dominion.

>these nations left because the Empire is weak
>so let's make the empire even weaker by leaving
make sense

Empire needs to be reformed.
Argonia was the empires by name only.
Morrowind is a shit hole and the empirE should not pay the bill to repair an elven shit hole.
An empire of men only is what we should strife for.
HAMMERFEL, HIGH ROCK, SKYRIM AND CYRODILL.
ORCS WILL GET HONORARY HUMAN STATUS.

Exactly. Imagine your brother getting thrown in prison or killed for choosing to pray to a certain God, then some asshole says "lol, don't complain"

Are you fucking kidding? I can agree that this may not be the best time for rebellion, but I must admit that the Markarth Incident Betrayal is a justified reason to do it, but the fact is that the Empire is collapsing. You're just delaying the inevitable.

>Medes take complete advantage of the utter chaos that is the Oblivion Crisis to basically steal the Empire from the now dead Septim Dynasty
>People are okay with this
>Ulfric wants to rule Skyrim
>People are not okay with this

I'll never understand.

The white-gold concordat was basically a contract signed at gunpoint. Where do you get this 'protect their elites' thing from anyway, would it have been better if all generals cut their own bellies open? No. Who cares about Talos, the reasonable thing to do was to appease them for now, or the war was over. Now we have a chance at fighting back in the near future.

The Empire can't win because it only barely won a stale-mate last time and now it is weaker. Hammerfell is gone. Skyrim is wracked by civil war, dragons, and vampires. The government is unstable. Now the Thalmor as well have tons of agents and forces deep in Imperial territory and have made political ties with many powerful Imperials, Jarls, and others.

The Empire is going to lose the next war and be destroyed.

>the Thalmor (who are now in charge of the Empire)
that's not how treaties work

They are still in no state to go to war for anybody.

Yes. The Empire lost, more specifically Cyrodill lost. All other nations wanted to continue fighting, the Empire prevented it, this is part of why they left.

How are you "going to fight back" when these nations now hate you as much as the originsl enemy. Unity is not going to happen.

Morrowind was still a province of the Empire, you Empirefags don't really look good when you basically say the Empire can pick and choose which provinces they want to leave for dead and fuck over but then say all provinces must remain loyal to the Empire.

This is irrefutable. Skyrim must obey the Empire, but not other nations because uhh

In sorry, but if you support the Empire you must also love sucking elf cocks, this is a fact.

Have you forgotten that Medes had salvaged the broken Imperial empire and lifted the siege and rooted the Aldmeri dominion, their where no Septims left so he was in the only one fit to fill the throne especially during these trying times.

I'm prety sure Empire apologists are Oblivion stans and Skyrim babies that didn't play any previous title. It's pretty obvious empie is a goner but for some reason they believe after their chances are getting progressively worse they'll finally step up and fight dominion. Tullius isn't in charge and his words don't mean shit when emperor is hell bent on letting Thalmor roam his realm

>Thalmor can literally do whatever they want
>not in charge

Give it up Empirefag.

Sunk cost fallacy. You can't save the Empire. The only hope now is to let it fade and wait for the Dominion to over-extend itself. Then a new Empire can rise.

What makes the Thalmor so powerful? What's the source of their political might?

>the fact is that the Empire is collapsing. You're just delaying the inevitable.

people who say things like this always want that to be the case more than it is necessarily the case. The Empire has survived many ups and downs and constant wars.

The emotional reasons for the rebellion are understandable, but that's still just one type of reasoning. If you take a more zoomed out perspective joining the stormcloaks is basically an anti-human choice to fight amongst men in during a critical time. And as far as emotional arguments go, there's also plenty to say about Ulfric and his tactics and values.

>Empire isn't interested in fighting elves
tullius literally tells you after killing ulfric that they can now focus on the thalmor

the overarching story in all the Elder Scrolls games is the Empire is destabilizing and dying.

And Ulfric wants to rebuild Skyrim into a truly sovereign and strong nation that it once was, why is he the bad guy now?

Either the Dominion will rule, or independent States will win out. Empire is done, this is the fourth Empire fags, perhaps the Dominion will be the fifth. This is how empires work.

Funny, it's only my anecdotal experience but most of my friends who started with Morrowind and Oblivion prefer Empire since they have a neutral - positive reception whereas most of my friends who started with Skyrim pick stormcloak because they can't get past the execution at the start.

>Tullius isn't in charge and his words don't mean shit when emperor is hell bent on letting Thalmor roam his realm

Even Tullius when a little drunk at the Thalmor Embassy Party admits that a lot of what the Stormcloaks say about the Empire is TRUE and that he wishes sometimes that he could defect to their cause.

that's absolutely retarded of them, the signs that the empire is trash and weak started in those games.

Glad he's the highest in hierarhy then and not emperor, right?

I've already explained this. The "Empire" consists of two and a half nations, they are having trouble beating like 45% of a nation of rebels.

How the fuck are they going to regain whole nations? Two of which are populated by some of the worlds most skilled warriors? I've yet to have this explained.

>Video game """politics"""
lol

>joining the stormcloaks is basically an anti-human choice to fight amongst men

The Empire quite literally chose to wage war on its own province instead of simply allowing Skyrim to secede under certain conditions and secure them as an ally. Galmar not only says he hates the Thalmor more than the Empire, but he tells you to 'make no mistake' about the Thalmor being the true enemy of the Stormcloak rebellion. People in these threads have clearly never even attempted to play the Stormcloak line of the civil war, it paints a clear picture of what Ulfric wants for Skyrim and pushing the Empire out is only the first step.

>Trusting the words of back stabbing aldmeri plant.
Ulfric started this shit even though the high king literally shared his sentiment he murderded him in cold blood, if he really wanted to defeat the thalmor he would march his army to their borders instead of shedding nordic blood.

From my experience most players new to the series stick to Empire because muh Roman aesthetic, Ulfric being nationalist and out of the two starting companions Hadvar was nicer

Bullshit. Skyrim is isolationist already, and Stormcloaks are racists. They'd never cooperate with, say, Elsweyr even though they'd be a valuable ally.

Well here's my anecdotal evidence, I'm a Morrowindfag and I always go Stormcloak.

>six years later retards are still spouting "thalmor plant"

It's simply incredible.

>murderded him in cold blood
It was a duel dipshit, was Ulfric supposed to tie up his hands because Torygg can't fight for shit?

The Empire has never been as weak as it is now combined with a rival Empire that is not weak and that has infiltrated it politically and literally at every level. True that the Dominion lost a lot during the Great War, but they've had 30 years to recover and in that time they haven't had to fight any civil wars. The Empire has and it no longer has Hammerfell to draw resources from either.

It's simple math. The Empire is weaker than it was then and that means it cannot possibly fight the Dominion to a stand still again. The Empire will crumble, and quickly, once the Dominion armies are marching through its heart land.

Already you have half of Skyrim willing to declare independence (more, really, since it took minipulation and gold to bribe Whiterun and Falkreath to stay loyal). Do you think the case will be any different in Cyrodiil or High Rock? Counts and Lords will be easily persuaded to bend the knee to the invaders on the promise their lands go unmolested and their titles confirmed.

>and that he wishes sometimes that he could defect to their cause.

lolwat

military coup can be really easy when most of the imperials have the same opinion tullius have

This is why i always choose the Stormcloaks, why the fuck would I join people who were going to execute me over nothing?

>that doesn't mean he's a bad leader.
Correct, what makes him a shit leader is how he was losing every battle and essentially the war itself right before the game starts

Every race on Tamriel is racist to others... this isn't a fucking argument.

The Nords literally gave the Dunmer a fucking island for refugees, they've worked with them and the Argonians before. Stop being a retard.


Elsweyr is already with the Dominion, by the way

This is what Galmar tells you if you ask him if he's against non-Nords
>"I oppose tyranny. I oppose those who tell me how to live, what to think, and what to believe. I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history."

>waaaaaaah wacism!

Welcome to the Elder Scrolls where nationalism and racism are alive and well. Every nation is like this, to try and pin it solely on the Nords is absolutely fucking retarded.

I don't see why you obsess over this point of getting back the other territories. The point is Skyrim has a better chance WITH the other humans than alone after a bloody civil war.

This is how it went
>Ulfric : fuck empire rebel
Torygg : Ulfric i understand your sentiment but we have to stick together and build up our strength so th-
>Ulfric : FUSROREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>and pushing the Empire out is only the first step.

and that is dumb. the first step is to fight amongst themselves. that'll teach those elves!

I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim but I know the lore reasonably well. My first time I escaped with Hadvar simply because I didn't know who the hell these Stormcloaks were but I was damned sure the Empire didn't summon the dragon.

I only later sided with the Storcmloaks after I witnessed all the horrible shit the Empire was permitting the Thalmor to do and how underhandedly they were maintaining control over Skyrim.

What's the worst thing you can say that the Stormcloaks have done? Sometimes a guy gets drunk and yells at Dunmer in the Grey Quarter. They are reluctant to do business with non-Nords. That's it. Even as xenophobes the Nords are pretty damn tolerant.

Meanwhile the Empire protects a Thalmor fortress that abducts and tortures people to death. That sends out hit squads to murder worshippers at remote Talos shrines. The Empire supports corrupt Jarls like Siddgeir of Falkreath who employs bandits to rob caravans. Or the Black-Briars who support the Thieves Guild. I like Balgruuf but ultimately the Empire manipulates him with lies and buys him with gold.

How? The Dominion already raped Cyrodill WITH all nations to draw from; they're going to win with an army from a war-ravaged nation, a nation where half the population will still resent them, and some Bretons?

en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius

Under Diplomatic Immunity

Reminder that Ulfric is still labeled as an asset for the Thalmor, sang like a bird for them in prison, and exists as controlled opposition. He is literally a traitor and was such even before he killed the high king.

>Duel
>Murdering a young boy and riding out into the night

If it was a duel according to honorable customs of the Nords, there would be no civil war. It was murder for personal gain, a true aldmeri plant at work.

>People using Hammerfell as to why SKyrim needs to defect.
Hammerfell was a red herring for the aldmeri dominion the legions stationed their ditch their outfit to blend in with the rebels.
The empire provided logistics and training to the redguards as well.
Hamerfell is de facto independent because technically they had to secede it but if it isnt under their control technically its all good.

Remember kids, the Empire is literally not responsible for anything that happens to its provinces. Clearly it's not the Empire's conscious choice to continue waging war on Men, it's all Ulfric's fault he made Titus Mede II do it.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the Great War myself, but wasn't the whole thing that the Thalmor were successful in catching Cyrodiil off guard, so that's why Cyrodiil got decimated during the war? From what I remember by the time fresh Nord armies were coming south the Empire had already signed the treaty.

You can't back up anything you said by lore. Torygg wasn't a boy and he accepted duel, died like a bitch and fucked up Empire's plan. There are no rules against use of thu'um in Nordic customs and those are the only ones that count.

It was a duel in the tradition of the old ways, but of-course Torygg's widow and the Empire won't accept it because to do so would be very bad for them politically.

I think Ulfric is a complex and realistic person. One of the best written characters in Skyrim. I think he is a man deeply conflicted at his core.

He probably blames himself, wrongly, for the sack of the Imperial City and thus the costly battle to re-take it, and the subsequent Whitegold Concordat. Thus the oppression of his people is something that deep down Ulfric must feel responsible for. The sad part is... he is wrong. After being tortured the information he gave the Thalmor was useless because they'd already taken the Imperial City anyway.

Considering he studied with the Grey Beards it is a given that he is very proud of traditional Nordic culture and has embraced it. So he truly does embody the traditional traits that a High King is supposed to have. However it is also true that becoming High King is great personal benefit to him as a lord. It means greater prestige and income, income necessary to re-fill Eastmarch's coffers after his costly war with the Empire.

He is also a man prone to act on emotion with reckless results. Thus is morally sound but strategically misguided war on the Empire. Thus is disinterest in and neglect of his Dunmer subjects.

He is a man with grand ambitions, to fulfill noble goals, driven by intense zeal for his religion and people.

''through dialogue with his former court members and Elisif, the Dragonborn discovers he respected Ulfric Stormcloak. Sybille Stentor even states that Torygg might have stood up against the Empire if Ulfric had asked him to. Even so, although Torygg respected Ulfric's call for independence during the Moot to name Torygg High King, it was unlikely he would have led Skyrim to secede from the Empire since he feared Skyrim could not defeat the Third Aldmeri Dominion alone and did not want to see the Empire Tiber Septim built fall apart.''
The fact that we see him in Sovngarde , the hall of the greatest nord heros and the lines he says"I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" puts into perspective how power hungry Ulfric is.

Meanwhile the Empire is not, the Empire that signed a treaty that was just as bad as the original ultimatum. The Empire is not to blame for anything, who cares if a couple hundred citizens are murdered by the Thalmor for worshiping Talos and the Empire stands idly by, it's all everyone else's fault.

So basically it's him first, Nords second, power gap, and then everyone else.

It's actually completely relevant, if not the crux of issue.
Animals that live a long time tend to have lower population numbers, while animals with short life spands higher. If you don't believe me look at the difference in population sizes between elephants and humans, or humans and flies (there are roughly 17 million flies per person on earth).
In a war, the elf population would be in a free fall, and they would not be able to reproduce at replacement levels.

Not backed up by anything other than Empirefags larping. Torygg himself in Sovngard tells you in his own words that he 'faced Ulfric fearlessly'. That clearly implies there was a duel, but every person in the Empire will have you believe Ulfric just walked into the throne room and made Torygg explode.

The two people directly involved tell you there was a duel, and you still deny it.

You are half-right.

The Empire was caught off guard and most of Cyrodiil fell to the invaders, including the Imperial City, wiping out an entire Legion in the process. Hammerfell was invaded too and the Empire withdrew forces, leaving it to fend for itself. The troops from Hammerfell arrived in Cyrodiil roughly at the same time as the Nordic legions from Skyrim. They then together assaulted the Imperial City and retook it at great cost, destroying the Dominion army occupying it but their own forces were decimated as well.

Then they agreed to peace terms with the Dominion, part of which meant disbanding the Blades and outlawing worship of Talos, as well as renouncing Hammerfell as a province of the Empire.

Hammerfell continued to fight the Dominion for several more years until the Dominion withdrew their forces.

What? It's Ulfric waging war on fellow men, not the other way around.

Did no one here read the dossiers?

I don't really see Hammerfell as any excuse, Ulfric wants true independence for Skyrim. Not Hammerfell "independence".

This.

It's fucking amazing how in a series with characters like Vivec and Tiber Septim, Ulfric is continously given shit for having a little ambition.

The Empire is choosing to wage war, they are just as much to blame for the Civil War as Ulfric is. The Empire could choose otherwise, but they choose to wage war, it's their choice.